Using Forbidden Yeast?

[Clint Yeastwood]

Anyone out there deliberately using yeast "off label"?

I brewed a heavy ale that was around 37% wheat, and I chose Lallemand Abbaye back when I wrote the recipe, probably because it sounded Belgian. The last batch I brewed blew up in a few days. The gravity plummeted and stopped. Dropped 68 points in 4 days. Came out perfect.

Right now I'm brewing an ale, pretty much like a witbier, and I'm using Safbrew WB-06, which is supposed to be a wheat yeast. The bill is 73% wheat. I've brewed it before.

Fermentation was insane after a day, but then it slowed down. Looks like it will be a while before I can keg. It tastes and smells fantastic so far (1.017), but no better than the heavy ale. I feel like I'm using a slow yeast for no good reason.

Lallemand lists "Belgian white" as a possible use for Abbaye, so maybe I'm not really off-label. It seems like the Belgians just do whatever they want.

 

[MaxStout]

I think this is what a lot of craft breweries do. They don't stock a dozen strains, they make do with maybe 4 or 5. So, yeah, they probably brew on the edges of (or beyond) what a yeast was designed for.

 

[mac_1103]

Anyone who's ever used Safale BE-256 for any kind of Belgian ale is actually using an Englsh yeast "off label." But it made me a quad that everyone seems to like all right.

I used WB-06 for the first time about a month ago for an Affligem clone and I was quite surprised by how slow the ferment seemed to go. But it hit 90% AA after three weeks and the sample tasted pretty darned good. It's carbing up now, but I won't be tasting it again until I get back from the left coast.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

I hope I don't have to go three weeks with this one. I think I'll do the next one with Abbaye, since it's fast and delicious.

 

[mac_1103]

It probably didn't really have to go three weeks, but I have enough beer on hand that I have the luxury of not rushing things.

 

[whoaru99]

Anyone who's ever used Safale BE-256 for any kind of Belgian ale is actually using an Englsh yeast "off label." But it made me a quad that everyone seems to like all right.

I don't claim to know the origin of species, but that's an interesting comment since BE-256 appears specifically recommended by Fermentis for Belgian-type ales.

(and it's what I used for a quad that I'm going to bust into end of Nov).

 

[mac_1103]

that's an interesting comment since BE-256 appears specifically recommended by Fermentis for Belgian-type ales.

It's been discussed in a number of threads here, but I won't claim that I've committed every detail to memory. Genetically it looks like it's derived from a British strain. I think that might be Fermentis' own data. They used to actually call it a Belgian yeast. They don't do that anymore.

Like I said, people are liking my quad, so who cares really? I think it's a good yeast for high gravity dark beers.

 

[whoaru99]

Like I said, people are liking my quad, so who cares really? I think it's a good yeast for high gravity dark beers.

I certainly don't care, inasmuch as implying right or wrong, what yeasts you use for anything.

Just found it interesting the comment about off label for Belgian when it seems that's the primary recommendation of Fermentis, that's all.

 

[Mr. Vern]

Forbidden Yeast.. I thought you guys were going to be making fun of that onlyfans lady and her new lady-brew.

 

[Agent]

From what I've seen, nothing is forbidden to homebrewers.

Except maybe yeast from south of the equator - and I'm not talking about New Zealand...

 

[mac_1103]

Aspirin to prevent heart attack started as an off label use. Eventually it became the major use. Things are funny that way sometimes.

I guess it just comes down to how much of a purist you are, but my point is just that we both brewed Belgian beers with yeast that is pretty clearly not Belgian. Some people (not me) have been quite critical of Fermentis for that recommendation.

 

[day_trippr]

Aspirin to prevent heart attack started as an off label use. Eventually it became the major use.

And now it is not recommended for those with low to moderate risk of heart attack or stroke.
Only recommended for those at high risk...

Cheers!

 

[sibelman]

Some beers rely on "yeast character" that some yeasts provide. It's interesting that high yeast flavor and Belgian often go together, though some of the diverse vastness of Belgian beers don't fit that description.

Most of the beers I make want "clean" yeast character (i.e. lack of character). An obvious non-Belgian example - ESB made h Imperial Pub - seems to demand yeast with a particular character. Using Chico isn't "forbidden" but would likely disappoint.

When speed is important and the beer doesn't "require" a particular yeast, perhaps @Clint Yeastwood would benefit from one of the Kveiks?

 

[VTMongoose]

I suspect BE-256 is a dry mutant of Rochefort's yeast, which is also British in origin and POF negative. Rochefort's yeast is available as WY1762 and WLP540. If you speciate these two, they are technically different but yield similar results. At this point, chances are, all of the abbey strains including WLP500 (Chimay) have mutated from when they were originally collected from their sources 10+ years ago.

WB-06 is a diastatic strain, origin Duvel-Moortgat and the primary strain used in the production of Duvel. It is the same yeast as WY1388 and WLP570. I used WB-06 in my recent Duvel pseudo-clone that scored a 39 in one comp and 44 in another - I followed Duvel's fermentation profile from BLAM and the yeast character I achieved is virtually identical to that of Duvel - tasting them side by side, it's easily my best clone ever.

Keep in mind that diastatic yeasts tend to have a vigorous growth phase like any other yeast but from there it's a very slow crawl to the finish. The longest fermentation from an ale strain I've experienced was with WLP545 Val-Dieu which I actually bottled early accidentally looking at the profile now - it was still chugging away slowly 3 weeks in.

The thing I've found with these yeasts is that you really need to warm them up as the growth phase is finishing up and then park the yeast at or near your peak fermentation temperature. I've extended this practice to other strains as well as it simply helps things finish faster. Here's an example from when I fermented that Belgian Golden Strong - I pitched at 67°F, hit a peak of 81°F, and then as the temperature started to drop, basically I use a heating pad placed inside my inkbird fridges to keep the beer warm from there. Ignore the drop at the end - I was experimenting with cold-crashing in the primary.

I'm all for using unconventional strains in different beers. One of my biggest surprises was using Lallemand Abbaye in some hazy IPA wort I got from a local brewery (only had whirlpool hops) - it was fruity, slightly hoppy, and lots of fun. I've also been experimenting with Nottingham in a bunch of different styles - if you keep it cool, it ferments very clean. Crank the temps or add some sugar and it throws your English fruity esters. The real surprise was making a great Rauchbier with this strain at cool temps that took bronze in the one comp I put it in - it is indistinguishable from some of my beers made with lager yeasts for all intents and purposes. Also, Nottingham ferments extremely quickly - more or less equal in speed to Lutra in my experience.

K-97 in addition to making a nice Kolsch also made my best APA ever - try this instead of Chico!

 

[sibelman]

the chances are all of the abbey strains including WLP500 (Chimay) have mutated from when they were originally collected

I'm pretty ignorant about yeast genetics (and many other things ), but I had the impression that commercial brewers (and yeast suppliers) struggle mightily to maintain consistent genotypes. Are you saying this effort is doomed?

 

[mac_1103]

You can maintain the genotypic integrity of an organism indefinitely if you know what you're doing, and I'm pretty sure that the folks who make Duvel and Chimay know what they're doing.

 

[VTMongoose]

I'm pretty ignorant about yeast genetics (and many other things ), but I had the impression that commercial brewers (and yeast suppliers) struggle mightily to maintain consistent genotypes. Are you saying this effort is doomed?

When I toured some of the breweries in Belgium, at least there, some of them, in addition to having a lab and ability to propagate in-house also have redundant samples of their yeast frozen off-site at Universities. St. Bernardus are very insistent that their yeast is the original Sixtus yeast. I think probably for the last 20-30 years breweries have had pretty reasonable control over their strains (if they care to - some don't). The science is certainly there. I think the struggles are in the growth and distribution side and supplier-dependent. Both homebrewers and commercial brewers report getting bad pitches of yeast. Very few times do you hear about people abandoning a strain altogether because it's suddenly become unusable for its original intended purpose - this tells me that any inevitable mutations in the yeast banks are monitored and kept to where they don't interfere with the yeast's ability to function as intended.

 

[mac_1103]

Mendel was a monk after all.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

I'm on day 5. I put a spunding valve on the beer because I thought fermentation was mostly over, and last night an ounce or two of beer escaped because it went over 15 psi. I don't think it blew the PRV. I had a hand faucet on it for sampling. Maybe that faucet can only handle so much.

I've decided to call it Wheat Privilege Ale.

 

[skunkape]

I've only had a couple of batches go into slow motion before they were finished. I gave the fermenter a good swirl to stir the yeast around and they picked right back up again.