Using a secondary bucket for conditioning

[BrewingWisdom]

Hello brewers
Last time
(Thread 'I finally made a beer from scratch' I finally made a beer from scratch)
I used individual bottles for conditioning but this time I plan to condition my whole batch into another tightly sealed bucket with some LME.
Has anyone here used a secondary bucket successfully for carbonation? Does this approach can cause oxygenation during the transfer stage?
The reason why I am doing this because I hate the yeast sediment at the bottom of my bottles. I find it irritating when it comes in the mouth. Specially when it gets mixed up due to pressure when I open my bottles.

 

[pvtpublic]

The only way that would work is if you used a keg for secondary, and used a counterpressure filler to bottle. You could use a CO2 tank or natural carbonation to do just that. A bucket, as we've discussed in your other post, won't hold carbonation pressure.

 

[McMullan]

Yes, with what passes as 'effort' these days, a secondary vessel (bright tank, if you like) helps to get beer ready for packaging sooner and reduces sediment in bottles. Obviously, if you want to condition in a secondary vessel it needs to be pressure rated. Using a beer gun here avoids sediment in bottles altogether.

 

[IslandLizard]

The reason why I am doing this because I hate the yeast sediment at the bottom of my bottles. I find it irritating when it comes in the mouth.

Let your beer condition in the primary fermenter long enough to let the yeast and trub all settle out.

Then rack/siphon the clear beer to your bottling bucket, starting halfway down the fermenter, along the wall. Slowly lower the cane while the beer level drops, leaving the yeast/trub behind on the bottom.

IOW, don't stick that racking cane or auto siphon all the way on the bottom as you'd often see in YouTube videos. That will prevent it from sucking up the trub.
Also, stick one of those "flow diverter caps" on the bottom of the cane/siphon.

Toward the end, start slowly tilting the bucket to the side you're siphoning from, to keep the siphoning well deeper, while leaving not much beer behind in the end.

 

[doug293cz]

Yes, with what passes as 'effort' these days, a secondary vessel (bright tank, if you like) helps to get beer ready for packaging sooner and reduces sediment in bottles. Obviously, if you want to condition in a secondary vessel it needs to be pressure rated. Using a beer gun here avoids sediment in bottles altogether.

And not just a little pressure. To naturally carbonate at room temperature, your vessel needs to be pressure rated to at least 30 psi, and have a PRV (pressure relief valve) to prevent over pressure (and possible vessel rupture.)

Brew on

 

[RM-MN]

Hello brewers
Last time
(Thread 'I finally made a beer from scratch' I finally made a beer from scratch)
I used individual bottles for conditioning but this time I plan to condition my whole batch into another tightly sealed bucket with some LME.
Has anyone here used a secondary bucket successfully for carbonation? Does this approach can cause oxygenation during the transfer stage?
The reason why I am doing this because I hate the yeast sediment at the bottom of my bottles. I find it irritating when it comes in the mouth. Specially when it gets mixed up due to pressure when I open my bottles.

My bucket has about a 12" opening. That means the lid covers about 112 square inches. At serving pressure (about 12psi) that would put over half a ton of pressure on the lid. Good luck holding the lid on.

Instead, leave your beer in the primary fermenter for 3 to 4 weeks. That lets most of the yeast settle out so it doesn't get in the bottles to start with.

 

[BrewingWisdom]

Let your beer condition in the primary fermenter long enough to let the yeast and trub all settle out.

Instead, leave your beer in the primary fermenter for 3 to 4 weeks. That lets most of the yeast settle out so it doesn't get in the bottles to start with.

No but leaving beer in the primary for long won't carbonate it and the beer will be flat? Or I have to carbonate it again in the bottles ?

 

[RM-MN]

Leaving the beer in the fermenter longer just lets the yeast and trub settle out and hopefully compact so it doesn't get transferred to the bottling bucket. It has to be carbonated in the bottle. There is no easy way out.

 

[hotbeer]

Beer does get carbonated in the primary fermenter. However since it's essentially at 1 atmosphere of pressure, it's not much that stays in solution. Those that are doing pressure fermentation probably will know more about that.

Moving your beer out of the primary FV to anything else is not going to carbonate it any more if that vessel isn't able to hold pressure and adequate CO2 isn't produced from natural fermentation or CO2 that is added from other sources.

So essentially you are kegging. Though pressurized fermentation in the primary is gaining some followers, so that's an option too.

 

[BrewingWisdom]

Is it suitable to be used for carbonation. Chime in please.

 

[IslandLizard]

Is it suitable to be used for carbonation. Chime in please. [...]

NO-NO-NO!

Larger glass vessels such as the ones in your picture^ are NOT suitable/safe for carbonating. Reason is, they'll burst when put under pressure. Aside from the mess, the shards are large, heavy, and razor sharp, which can cause very serious injuries.

That's also the main reason glass carboys have fallen out of favor for use as fermenters, especially the ones manufactured without proper quality control (e.g., the ones made in China). We have several threads on that topic, some showing gruesome pictures as testimony to stay well away from them.

The (old) coke bottle is fine, as are beer bottles. 750s and magnums have a dimpled bottom and are thick, heavy glass, like champagne bottles.

 

[BrewingWisdom]

NO-NO-NO!

Larger glass vessels such as the ones in your picture^ are NOT suitable/safe for carbonating. Reason is, they'll burst when put under pressure. Aside from the mess, the shards are large, heavy, and razor sharp, which can cause very serious injuries.

That's also the main reason glass carboys have fallen out of favor for use as fermenters, especially the ones manufactured without proper quality control (e.g., the ones made in China). We have several threads on that topic, some showing gruesome pictures as testimony to stay well away from them.

The (old) coke bottle is fine, as are beer bottles. 750s and magnums have a dimpled bottom and are thick, heavy glass, like champagne bottles.

No but the pic i shared is of a beverage dispenser. And aren't people use carbonated beverages in glass dispensers ?
A Chinese supplier is offering me that in a good price so just a thought popped in my mind.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

No but the pic i shared is of a beverage dispenser. And aren't people use carbonated beverages in glass dispensers ?

These type of beverage dispensers are designed as a container for mixing and serving beverages, not for longer term storage of the beverage

Beer bottles use thick glass and beer kegs use metal for a reason. If these bottles and kegs could made to perform safely with less material, they would be.

---

Next, if you are considering using those containers as spigotted fermenters, two questions:

1. is there sufficient 'dead space' at the bottom of the fermenter for trub?
2. does the spigot work for bottling?

---

Finally, when bottles burst under pressure, things like this can happen:

(this wan't me - link to original: Fixing Bottle Bombs)

 

[monkeydan]

Just listen to what people are telling you rather than you want to hear.

Sorry if this comes across as rude, as it is genuinely not my intention. However a number of people are being very helpful and it seems like you're pretty much ignoring / questioning what they have to say because you don't want it to be true.

You may be able to DISPENSE already carbonated drinks from the containers in the pictures you linked to (although I don't think they would hold pressure and whatever starts off carbonated would quickly be flat!).

But you CANNOT use those to carbonate beer for the reasons already given.

 

[BrewingWisdom]

Just listen to what people are telling you rather than you want to hear.

Sorry if this comes across as rude, as it is genuinely not my intention. However a number of people are being very helpful and it seems like you're pretty much ignoring / questioning what they have to say because you don't want it to be true.

You may be able to DISPENSE already carbonated drinks from the containers in the pictures you linked to (although I don't think they would hold pressure and whatever starts off carbonated would quickly be flat!).

But you CANNOT use those to carbonate beer for the reasons already given.

It surprised me why do you think so.
I didn't argue uselessly or had shown stubbornness to my opinions. I am just inquiring and researching about the different options I have. The seller said that dispenser is for carbonated beverages so I thought it's pressure rated.
I didn't deserve that kind of a response from your side.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

(sometimes 'beating a dead horse' supplies the necessary emphasis).

I thought it's pressure rated.

It's not.

And these containers do not appear to be a good starting point for fermenters. The dispensing spigot may be too low and may not be designed for proper bottling. It's uncertain that the hole is the right size for a bottling spigot.

 

[TheBluePhantom]

It surprised me why do you think so.
I didn't argue uselessly or had shown stubbornness to my opinions. I am just inquiring and researching about the different options I have. The seller said that dispenser is for carbonated beverages so I thought it's pressure rated.
I didn't deserve that kind of a response from your side.

Honestly, I don't think he was trying to be mean. Just concerned for your safety. I love my glass, I have over 20 carboys which are glass. But I would never pressurize them. When I was a kid we did a soda and it blew up 8 or 10 bottles, a real mess at 12 oz. Go to a 640 oz container and you are in serious danger. If the manufacturer said those are for carbonated beverages, they are either vented/ungasketed, or they know you can't sue from where you are.

For homebrewing everyone wants to save money, it is a popular topic here. But you have to weigh the risk. There seems to be a trend that I am considering joining to use things like this:

Kegmenter Fermentation Keg - 7.6 gal. | MoreBeer

which is a keg specifically designed for pressure fermentation. This one is 7.5 gallon for 5 gallon batches. You can serve out of it, or pressure transfer to kegs or bottles. With a spunding valve it will fully carbonate the beer during fermentation. But even this, a properly designed pressure vessel made from stainless, is only rated for 36 psi or 2.5 bar. Glass is weak in tension and would not hold for such a large diameter. If you make smaller batches you can also use a 5 gallon keg for the same purpose, outfit it with a floating pickup and you pull clear beer from the fermentor in just weeks.

I know the stainless fermentors are cost prohibative at times, but glass is the worst choice for pressure. It is weak in tension, sharp as hell, and hard to find when it is embedded in your body. Even a container that is properly rated can still break if it slips in your hands.

Possible the most economical move would be to get a used 5 gallon keg and ferment 3 or 4 gllon batches in it. Install a floating dip, or cut the dip short to avoid trub. You will still need CO2 to push the beer out though.

 

[hotbeer]

Glass jars are good at handling pressure from the outside. Not so good at handling pressure from the inside.

The sides of those jars are probably much thinner than you are imagining them to be.