Upside down corny draught system - will it work?

[mattd2]

Has anyone ever used a corny upside down and gravity feed beer out from the gas in connection, with the liquid out open to atmoshpere (with a check valve maybe) to allow the tank to vent (if it was needed). Just thinking that long ago weren't all beer cask open to atmoshpere and beer pulled out with a beer engine? There should be a blanket of co2 ontop of the beer to prevent oxidation from the air, right?
Anyone reakon I should give it a go (with a hopped extract kit so it won't be to big a loss it it fails) :cross:, maybe i'll wait and try with just the last 1/4 of a keg or something first

 

[killian]

if you are leaving it open to air it will only last about 3 days.

 

[shortyjacobs]

Yeah, you are right, in the old days, beer casks were open to the atmosphere and pulled out with a beer engine. It also only lasted a few days, and oxidized over this time.

This is one of the "advantages" according to the real beer crowd. Cask ale changes in flavor over the few days that you are drinking it, which is part of the authenticity or something....

But if you want to keep your beer for more than a few days, keep oxygen away from it. Yes, there will be CO2 on top of the beer, but diffusion is a bitch, and it doesn't take long for oxygen to mix in....(gases don't function like oil and water...they mix readily..._

 

[IrregularPulse]

CAMRA allows a co2 inlet at like 2-3 psi for serving and it's still considered Real Ale, or Cask Conditioned like you're going for. This can protect from oxidation.

 

[RDWHAHB]

I Don't think that CAMRA approves of CO2 inlet in any way.

There are systems which dispense cask conditioned beer by gas pressure. Other systems store cask beer under gas so as to prolong the shelf-life. CAMRA disapproves of both systems and actively discourages their use. The first makes beer unpleasantly fizzy, the second interferes with the maturation processes of the beer. Such gas systems are not needed in a well run pub.

http://www.camra.org.uk/page.aspx?o=180651


That being said, I don't think that using air only is realistic for the homebrewer. So use CO2, unless you have a crowd to go through a keg in a few days. CAMRA has a opinion one what makes a "real ale", and you can use the term as you see fit.

Cheers

 

[david_42]

Since you don't have active fermentation, the CO2 blanket will be disrupted by the air coming into the cornie. I use 2 psi of CO2 to dispense and I certainly would not call it "unpleasantly fizzy". Real ale as defined by CAMRA only works in pubs with high turnover.

 

[mattd2]

Since you don't have active fermentation, the CO2 blanket will be disrupted by the air coming into the cornie. I use 2 psi of CO2 to dispense and I certainly would not call it "unpleasantly fizzy". Real ale as defined by CAMRA only works in pubs with high turnover.

As I have read elsewhere the Air and CO2 in the headspace will mix together untill in equilibrium and you will be left with air with a slightly higher CO2 concentration = beer goes bad.
To get around having to "inject" CO2 at pressure and still have a long(er) lasting real ale, could you rake beer into a corny with enough priming sugar to produce 1 extra volume of CO2, turn upside down, attach QD with hose to beer out, attach big balloon to end of hose, wait for yeast to fill balloon with CO2, tap beer from gas out. A bit involved but should provide co2 at constant atmoshperic pressure to the keg for that real ale experience (and possibly be acceptable to CAMRA, if it even matters, as you have not introduce anything to the beer and are serving at atmoshperic pressure).
Plus it will be 1 less balloon to blow up at you next party

 

[Bobby_M]

Mmmmm, latex beer.

 

[mattd2]

Mmmmm, latex beer.

Hmmmmm.......... I was actually wondering where I would get a balloon large enough!

 

[mkory]

Why not just use the outpost hose to siphon co2 into the keg? I see no issue with that working so long as you have another container to hold the co2. Hell, even an empty carboy should work.

 

[broadbill]

Has anyone ever used a corny upside down and gravity feed beer out from the gas in connection, with the liquid out open to atmoshpere (with a check valve maybe) to allow the tank to vent (if it was needed). Just thinking that long ago weren't all beer cask open to atmoshpere and beer pulled out with a beer engine? There should be a blanket of co2 ontop of the beer to prevent oxidation from the air, right?
Anyone reakon I should give it a go (with a hopped extract kit so it won't be to big a loss it it fails) :cross:, maybe i'll wait and try with just the last 1/4 of a keg or something first

Any particular reason you are interested in trying this?

 

[mattd2]

Why not just use the outpost hose to siphon co2 into the keg? I see no issue with that working so long as you have another container to hold the co2. Hell, even an empty carboy should work.

I would imagine that it would need to be a closed system otherwise air would just mix in the siphon bucket/carboy and then be drawn back into the keg, it would probably be much less of a problem doing it that way because you would have a larger volume of CO2 to begin with though. And why not have the yeast do the work to make the CO2.

Any particular reason you are interested in trying this?

No real particular reason, just was interested in serving a "real" ale.

 

[BigTexun]

Like others have said, as you pull liquid out the bottom, eventually the CO2 in the head space will come under vacuum. When enough vacuum builds to offset the head pressure of the liquid, no liquid will come out until some air comes in, bubbles up through the liquid, and lowers the headspace vacuum.

I'm not a real experienced brewer yet but, I am an engineer. That's what'll happen. Using a bigger CO2 volume will delay it but, it'll still happen. I'm also not confident that Corny kegs are built to be airtight under a vacuum... in fact, I strongly suspect that they are not.

Good luck!
BT

 

[shortyjacobs]

You COULD supply it with CO2 in a closed system so that the headspace is filled as you draw beer, but so that the headspace is still at (damn near) atmospheric pressure.

But it will look like a Rube Goldberg, and your Corny will probably leak like the bejesus when you turn it upside down unless you find a good way of sealing it shut.

You can do this. And whenever the bucket sinks too low in the water, (as you use up the CO2 in it as you draw beer), just stick a CO2 line into the bucket and open the tank for a few seconds so it can refill the bucket.

Edit: Strings should be long enough to hold the lip of the bucket underwater, and evenly spaced around the bucket, as it will want to tip over at first. As more and more of the bucket sinks under water, it will become more and more stable.

 

[mattd2]

Like others have said, as you pull liquid out the bottom, eventually the CO2 in the head space will come under vacuum. When enough vacuum builds to offset the head pressure of the liquid, no liquid will come out until some air comes in, bubbles up through the liquid, and lowers the headspace vacuum.

I'm not a real experienced brewer yet but, I am an engineer. That's what'll happen. Using a bigger CO2 volume will delay it but, it'll still happen. I'm also not confident that Corny kegs are built to be airtight under a vacuum... in fact, I strongly suspect that they are not.

Good luck!
BT

I think you might have missed a few points, the corney should never be under vacuum as it will be vented through the beer out post (hopefully to a co2 source at atmoshperic pressure). I do hope that the head will provide enough pressure to seal the lid when it is upside down otherwise 20 litres of beer will be on the floor. The "air" will not bubble up through the beer as it will be coming through to the headspace through the dip tube to the, now, top of the keg. I am not sure what you are meaning by bigger CO2 volume, what I am aiming for is a way that only CO2 can vent into the keg and not plain air.
One thing I will have to check with the balloon method would be diffusion of co2/air through the balloon, but at least this will result in mixing of CO2/air at a lower rate that by just leaving it "sitting" next to each other.
I am an engineer too, seems like brewing beer is a fairly common hobby for us engineers and I think our profession is quite suited to the hobby

 

[shortyjacobs]

I do hope that the head will provide enough pressure to seal the lid when it is upside down otherwise 20 litres of beer will be on the floor.

I think you are hosed on this point. Corny kegs have about 25" of liquid in them. 25" of H2O is a grand total of 0.9 PSI. My kegs require 20-40 PSI to seal...

I think you'd need a mechanical sealing method on them. I'm thinking a flat bar of steel across the top of the keg, (Resting on the rubber), with a hole drilled in the center. Remove the pressure release vent in the center of the corny lid. Find a bolt that very closely matches the diameter of the hole, and then find an oring to fit on the bolt. O-ring on bolt, bolt through hole, with threads sticking UP out the top of the corny lid. Threads of bolt run through steel bar, and a nut goes on top. Tighten the nut, and it pulls both the lid tight against the lid O-ring, and the bolt tight against the bolt o-ring. You can reef on it well enough to get a tight seal that way, and still have it open easily, (far better than gluing it shut or some fool thing).

Edit: Like this, (grey thing is steel bar)

 

[mattd2]

Edit: Replay to first shortyjacobs post
Wow shortyjacobs, that is some impressive rube golberging (I had to look him up on Wikipedia:cross
I do agree this is getting mighty tech from what it started out as (i.e. can I turn a corny upside down and gravity feed)
Replay to 2nd shortyjacobs post
Nice, my lids are pretty tight with just the lever lock. Might fill one with water tonight and leave it upside down to check.

 

[wild]

Real ale is not a flat beer. It's just an under conditioned beer. Keg condition your beer as usual but tap it at 1.5 - 2 weeks. The yeast present will still create CO2 while the ale is being consumed.

 

[BigTexun]

I think you might have missed a few points, the corney should never be under vacuum as it will be vented through the beer out post (hopefully to a co2 source at atmoshperic pressure). I do hope that the head will provide enough pressure to seal the lid when it is upside down otherwise 20 litres of beer will be on the floor. The "air" will not bubble up through the beer as it will be coming through to the headspace through the dip tube to the, now, top of the keg. I am not sure what you are meaning by bigger CO2 volume, what I am aiming for is a way that only CO2 can vent into the keg and not plain air.
One thing I will have to check with the balloon method would be diffusion of co2/air through the balloon, but at least this will result in mixing of CO2/air at a lower rate that by just leaving it "sitting" next to each other.
I am an engineer too, seems like brewing beer is a fairly common hobby for us engineers and I think our profession is quite suited to the hobby

Yes, I did miss a couple of points... errrh, should I say I made a couple of invalid assumptions.

As to sealing, I'd think that you could get a watertight (not gas tight) seal on the inverted corny, if you used a new o-ring. It is under 1 psi and liquid won't leak as readily as gas. If it oozes slowly, you could probably find some type of O-ring sealant (lubrication).

Good luck!

PS: Sure seems like a lot of trouble when the "regular method" produces such fine results!

 

[Myrdhyn]

To get the seal would be simple. Use a fresh (or freshly washed in warm soapy water...this seems to "refresh" them to me) O-ring, a *light* coating of keg lube, hit the keg with 30-40lbs of co2 to seal/seat the lid good, then bleed back down to atmospheric pressure. Flip keg over. It won't leak. I've tested this with about a half keg of H2O with no issues.

 

[mattd2]

Thanks for the sealing ideas, yeah I try one of my kegs upside fown with water last night and it leak just a little bit, but even a little is too much!

PS: Sure seems like a lot of trouble when the "regular method" produces such fine results!

Its not really trouble to me when I'm finding it fun, just finding new ways to serve beer
I agree that if it was a huge cost of money or time I would not continue but at the mo I will keep going

 

[StMarcos]

I'm not sure you'd notice a difference between 1 and 0psi CO2. How about pouring the keg out into a punch bowl and ladling it out with tin cups?

 

[mattd2]

I'm not sure you'd notice a difference between 1 and 0psi CO2. How about pouring the keg out into a punch bowl and ladling it out with tin cups?

Not really looking for a way to have pressure in the keg for carbination, the comment about 1 psi was in regards to sealing the lid and nothing else. What you suggested makes no sense at all as that would casue oxidation from being exposed to a lot of air - which is what I was concerned about really. Thanks for trying though
By the way at 0 psi there would still be around 1.4 volumes of CO2 in the beer. Very mild carbination, kind of like a real ale.

 

[mattd2]

http://biohazard.veriqikdsl.com/page18.html
Just saw this on another post, they use a specle type of valve (apparently approved by CAMRA for low volume pubs) to allow atmospheric CO2 for a high pressure source. But i would imagine it would be the same if you just hooked up you reg and dialed in the tap until it just cracked open. Then gravity feed away.