understanding high pressure versus low pressure propane

[TrickyDick]

Finally,

Here are some pics from my rig.

I have the breakaway ferrule compression fitting on a pilot light, that I can't get to seal. Any suggestions on how to fix? I tried removing and cutting some of the old tubing and retightening. It doesn't work, you can pull easily the aluminum tubing out of the fitting when fully tightened...

Living in central FL, where most folks have electric heat used infrequently (maybe 7 days per year at most), it is hard to find propane "experts". Also living in the country, the term "expert" is used loosely on all accounts, not just propane guys. Anyway, I have finally hired one to help sort out the problem. He thought the orifice on the burners looked too big. He thought I might have bugs that crawled into the fittings. He thought trying to run more than one burner on the connecting tubing to the propane tank was bad. I am dubious of this expert, but am proceeding. He is going to plumb in the connections for me to connect to my buried tanks (long story but there are 2x250gal propane tanks) via a supply line that runs to my brew patio area.

At any rate, my replacement burners and orifices were purchased through brewershardware. I believe I have checked the order history and all seems correct.

I think I have either too little air mixing with the propane or vice versa.

TD

 

[WileECoyote]

subscribed, great thread.

Cheers

 

[SafariJack]

Tricky, did you ever get your burners figured out?

 

[TrickyDick]

Tricky, did you ever get your burners figured out?

Yes I sold those and bought tejas mini ring burners. Still have propane regulator problems. But at least I can brew. Getting soot and poor air mix. Still working on that but burners are at least staying HOT and are more powerful by quite a bit.

TD

 

[BrokenDog]

There is a lot of good info here that I'll be needing next week when I attempt to set my burners up on my new single tier.

 

[SafariJack]

I have a source of NG right at the edge of my garage that I plan to use for my Brutus clone. Hopefully things will go well for me

 

[Namako]

Whew!! There is a lot of GREAT information on this thread! But of course, with loads of information often comes loads of confusion in trying to adapt the lessons learned by our bretheren to the peculiarities of the paths we have chosen.

My path... I have 2 brand new Blichmann floor-standing burners that I'm getting ready to install into my to-be-automated brew stand. They both came with two high-pressure regulators (Ninbo Wanon GYK-5/8, with a sticker proclaiming "10 psig" on the knobs), a stainless steel-encased hose, and 3/8" female fittings that attach to the LPG oriface situated at the burner entrance (presumably also high-pressure).

I want to automate my system by feeding the LPG from a propane tank to two Honeywell VR8200A Gas Valves (HLT, BK), and then feeding the burners from the gas valve.

Unfortunately, the Honeywells are LOW pressure valves, with a nominal inlet pressure range of 12-14" water column.

It appears, from what I've been reading here, that all I have to do to convert the Blichmanns to low pressure is to replace the two regulators and the two LPG orifaces with low-pressure models. The Banjo burners Blichmann uses can remain unmodified.

Is this correct? If so, what performance changes should I expect? Less pressure = less gas delivered/burned = fewer BTUs = less heating efficiencies = more time = lower performance... am I correct?

Is there a high pressure alternative to the Honeywells that would provide the same level of automation?

As an aside, I happen to have an old low-pressure Marshall Gas Controls 605H 2-stage switching regulator that I would really LOVE to use. The reg allows me to hook up two propane tanks to the one regulator, and then by using a splitter, send gas out simultaneously to the two burners. The regulator draws from only one of the tanks until it is empty, and then it automatically switches to the other tank without disrupting the flow of gas. I can then swap out the empty tank while the boil continues on the second tank, and I'm never left with more than 1 partally-full tank. That said, I suspect the regulator may not have the capacity to deliver 11" WC to both burners simultaneously.

Thoughts anyone? Kladue??

 

[mblanks2]

Subscribed, great info.

 

[TrickyDick]

Whew!! There is a lot of GREAT information on this thread! But of course, with loads of information often comes loads of confusion in trying to adapt the lessons learned by our bretheren to the peculiarities of the paths we have chosen.

My path... I have 2 brand new Blichmann floor-standing burners that I'm getting ready to install into my to-be-automated brew stand. They both came with two high-pressure regulators (Ninbo Wanon GYK-5/8, with a sticker proclaiming "10 psig" on the knobs), a stainless steel-encased hose, and 3/8" female fittings that attach to the LPG oriface situated at the burner entrance (presumably also high-pressure).

I want to automate my system by feeding the LPG from a propane tank to two Honeywell VR8200A Gas Valves (HLT, BK), and then feeding the burners from the gas valve.

Unfortunately, the Honeywells are LOW pressure valves, with a nominal inlet pressure range of 12-14" water column.

It appears, from what I've been reading here, that all I have to do to convert the Blichmanns to low pressure is to replace the two regulators and the two LPG orifaces with low-pressure models. The Banjo burners Blichmann uses can remain unmodified.

Is this correct? If so, what performance changes should I expect? Less pressure = less gas delivered/burned = fewer BTUs = less heating efficiencies = more time = lower performance... am I correct?

Is there a high pressure alternative to the Honeywells that would provide the same level of automation?

As an aside, I happen to have an old low-pressure Marshall Gas Controls 605H 2-stage switching regulator that I would really LOVE to use. The reg allows me to hook up two propane tanks to the one regulator, and then by using a splitter, send gas out simultaneously to the two burners. The regulator draws from only one of the tanks until it is empty, and then it automatically switches to the other tank without disrupting the flow of gas. I can then swap out the empty tank while the boil continues on the second tank, and I'm never left with more than 1 partally-full tank. That said, I suspect the regulator may not have the capacity to deliver 11" WC to both burners simultaneously.

Thoughts anyone? Kladue??

I have been struggling with my propane issues. I have a new regulator mfd by Reco I think it the name. Marshall is out of business. My old reg I think a Marshall 300 series, was rated for 160kbtu. If you are running two banjo burners you might want to dig up the btu rating on your regulator. Mine had pressure drops with two burners and severe drops with three burners. Plus I suspect that in addition on the pressure, the volume of flow was problematic. I still haven't sorted the issues out. Brewers hardware sells similar LPG low pressure burners and orifices. I had trouble with these burners myself, but I suspect was because of my regulator. I have not yet installed my new regulator. It can handle like 450k btu, enough for my three 100k btu mini jet burners. I think your suspicion of that regulator is well placed. Do yourself a favor and buy a decent regulator from the get go. These Reco regs look very well built (bolted covers instead of crimped on for instance). Mine is a dual stage. Though I don't need a two stage, it'll be handy if I ever need to go to a portable cylinder. I suspect that if my new regulator doesn't cure my problems, that I will be looking for the second stage regulator in my home and replacing it or going back to portable cylinders.

Correct that the Honeywell valves are for low pressure.

What are using for a mash tun? If you ever decide you want a heated mash tun, get a regulator that can handle three burners with additional capacity or headroom. I don't know if that is a real phenomena of regulators, but suspect might be problematic to run at max btu all the time, and might have difficulty maintaining steady pressure and flow than with a regulator that has extra capacity. My old Marshall reg dropped to less than 5inch WC when all three burners were lit. Only time this happens on my rig is during run off after the BK is partially filled I light the burner so as to save time. The MT & HLT burners cycle on and off to maintain run off and sparge water temps. I might also have three going when I do a decoction mash later this year ( I must be insane).

Good luck!

TD

 

[Namako]

I discovered that Marshall Gas Controls went out of business at the end of last year, so I'm now toying with the idea of buying the Marshall Excelsior MEGR-9984 2-Stage Automatic Regulator. The specs say it'll put out 230,000 btu/h, so it should be able to keep up with a couple of Blichmanns converted to low pressure.

I really want the ability to run two propane tanks in series, and have the regulator automatically switch to the full one in reserve when it empties the first one. I really HATE it when I go to take a break to crack open another beer... or to respectfully drain the last one... only to come back to a kettle that at some point in the last 10-15 minutes lost its boil due to a flame out/empty tank. I also llike taking EMPTY tanks back to get refilled, rather than partially tanks - propane isn't free!!

As you indicated, there are times when I might be running both burners simultaneously, and I'd like for the regulator to be able to keep up. I use an electric RIMS (2000W/100V) for the mash (all three of my kettles are Blichmann 20-gallon BoilerMakers), so I have no need for a third burner. Once I repatriate back to the states, and I have access to 30Amp service, I'll probably throw all of this aside and go all electric!

 

[kladue]

Looks like the Marshall regulator replacement will do the job, low pressure orifices are usually running about 70K-80K btu's. With the burners 1/2 of the combustion air enters with the gas, the other 1/2 is what flows up and around the burner flames. While the shrouds are a good idea, you need to make sure the flow of air from underneath and the exit of the flame from the top are not restricted too much. For flat bottom pots a 1/2" spacer between frame and bottom of the pot is enough, for kegs a 1-1/2" X 4" window in the skirt will work.

 

[TrickyDick]

I still have issues.


Replaced Marshall 290 with a Reco 2 stage 450k BTU rated regulator.
Lose pressure when I have more than one burner running. 9" with 2, 5" with 3.
Still no razor sharp blue flame with any combination.
Source is tandem 250gal tanks with a psi regulator. There must be another secondary somewhere I think, and probably a crappy one at that.
I connect my rig to a QD, which I thought went right to the buried tanks, but seems like it probably does not.
I don't think a portable 15 pound cylinder can run three 100k btu burners. Hate to take a step backwards versus huge buried tanks, but think I need to try that for diagnostic purposes.

TD

By the way. Found out my QD hookup bypasses the secondary regulator. Primary 10psi tank regulator is feeding directly the 3/4" line to which my manifold is connected by a two stage regulator. Is there a problem with having a 10 psi primary regulator on the buried tanks, AND a two stage regulator on the manifold ( in essence two primary regulators??). Also the Honeywell valves have built in regulators. I can't imagine that this is the root of my problems.

 

[adamant]

I am interested in building a dual gas brewing structure that I can use propane when I go to group brews and NG when I am at home.

I think I can get away with using banjo burners with drilled out orifices for NG, and swapping in new orifices for using LP. Can I also get away with the same sized piping? I saw some people complaining that 1/2" pipe was not sufficient for flowing enough NG, and they had much better results with 3/4". Is there any reason that I can't run the propane through the same 3/4" pipe? I am not sure how the pressures work if I step it down to 1/4" piping to each burner.

 

[day_trippr]

If you picked up a high volume/low pressure propane regulator, you shouldn't have to swap orifices between "home" and "away" brews.

I haven't read of anyone complaining about 1/2" iron pipe on NG rigs, but if you're worried about it, go with 3/4". And you don't need to step down to 1/4" to the orifices...

Cheers!

 

[adamant]

If you picked up a high volume/low pressure propane regulator, you shouldn't have to swap orifices between "home" and "away" brews.

I haven't read of anyone complaining about 1/2" iron pipe on NG rigs, but if you're worried about it, go with 3/4". And you don't need to step down to 1/4" to the orifices...

Cheers!

Are you saying that propane will flow well through a drilled out orifice? Does it matter what burners I select? I am leaning toward Banjo style burners. I found a few online that support up to 160,000 BTU/hr. That sounds sufficient to run a few burners at ~50,000BTU.

Do you suggest just running the 1/2" or 3/4" pipe right to a reducer to the orifice? I assume that I will be able to get 1/2" pipe without much issue.

I appreciate the reply.

 

[day_trippr]

Yes, and Yes...

Cheers!

 

[adamant]

Yes, and Yes...

Cheers!

I am not sure how this works if you have a 1/4" hose from the regulator to the manifold, does it matter if the manifold is 1/2" or 1/4"? I guess with the NG the connections will not be restricted, so it will still be important to have the wider pipe.

 

[day_trippr]

Whoa! Who said anything about 1/4" hoses - especially long hoses between tanks and rigs? 1/2" minimum, unless you're running a wicked long hose where you'd likely want to go with something even larger...

Cheers!

 

[adamant]

Whoa! Who said anything about 1/4" hoses - especially long hoses between tanks and rigs? 1/2" minimum, unless you're running a wicked long hose where you'd likely want to go with something even larger...

Cheers!

Alrighty then! I was looking at the regulators here: http://www.tejassmokers.com/lowpressureregulators.htm
and they all have 3/8" output and hoses. Are there Low pressure LP regulators that have 1/2" outputs? I am assuming that at any point there is a restriction it defeats the purpose of having the wider pipe later on in the system.

 

[kladue]

The 3/8" connection on a 2 stage regulator and short run of 3/8" hose (< 4') will not significantly impact the overall delivery pressure when used with a pipe manifold, remember the gas jet opening for 10" LP burners is usually only 3/32".
Using 1/2" iron pipe is the easiest and most common material available to build manifolds from. While using gas rated Teflon tape for thread sealing is acceptable practice, but liquid thread sealers do not shed fragments into your gas system where they can plug up small openings in pilot and burner orifices.
Trying to switch between NG and LP on a regular basis will involve two sets of parts to switch between fuels, burner jets, pilot orifices, automatic gas valve springs, 1/2"+ hose for NG, and 2 stage regulator and 3/8" hose for LP.
Check Lowes for a 2 stage LP regulator at a better price point

 

[adamant]

The 3/8" connection on a 2 stage regulator and short run of 3/8" hose (< 4') will not significantly impact the overall delivery pressure when used with a pipe manifold, remember the gas jet opening for 10" LP burners is usually only 3/32".
Using 1/2" iron pipe is the easiest and most common material available to build manifolds from. While using gas rated Teflon tape for thread sealing is acceptable practice, but liquid thread sealers do not shed fragments into your gas system where they can plug up small openings in pilot and burner orifices.
Trying to switch between NG and LP on a regular basis will involve two sets of parts to switch between fuels, burner jets, pilot orifices, automatic gas valve springs, 1/2"+ hose for NG, and 2 stage regulator and 3/8" hose for LP.
Check Lowes for a 2 stage LP regulator at a better price point

What is the benefit of a 2 stage over a single stage low pressure regulator?

 

[kladue]

The 2 stage operates smoothly over a wider range of tank pressures and flow rates, and usually is offered in larger Btu ratings than the single stage units for BBQ's. The first stage reduces tank to ~10 psi, second stage drops 10 Psi to 11-13" Wc. You will find that the high pressure regulators can be turned down to 13" Wc pressure in theory, but will not flow enough propane at that low an outlet pressure, and control is very erratic which is not a good thing for a brew rig.
If you want to save the high pressure regulator and just add a "Secondary" regulator to drop 10 Psi to 13", go for it as that is what is typically done for residential LP service installations.

 

[adamant]

The 2 stage operates smoothly over a wider range of tank pressures and flow rates, and usually is offered in larger Btu ratings than the single stage units for BBQ's. The first stage reduces tank to ~10 psi, second stage drops 10 Psi to 11-13" Wc. You will find that the high pressure regulators can be turned down to 13" Wc pressure in theory, but will not flow enough propane at that low an outlet pressure, and control is very erratic which is not a good thing for a brew rig.
If you want to save the high pressure regulator and just add a "Secondary" regulator to drop 10 Psi to 13", go for it as that is what is typically done for residential LP service installations.

Earlier I linked to a low pressure, high volume regulator that is rated for 160,000 BTU. That sounds sufficient to me, but I am not really sure.

I just found a local hardware store that carries black iron pipe as large as 3/4" (or larger), should I go for that since I can or is it really not necessary?

Also, day_tripper mentioned earlier that I could get away with setting the rig up for NG and still being able to use propane without any modifications. Why do you say that I would need two sets of everything? Let's assume I am going to use banjo burners.

 

[kladue]

I would do a search for 2 stage propane regulators and skip the one you linked, they should be much cheaper and available from a RV parts supplier or Lowes.
As to the pipe manifold, 1/2" iron pipe is sufficient for both NG and LP propane as the 10" burners will output 65K+ on NG and 80K on propane, both ratings within the normal pressure drop range for the short pipe manifold you will build.
When using the 10" burners without automatic valves, changing the burner gas jet will cost about $7 each for a NG orifice valve http://www.brewershardware.com/Valve-and-NG-Orifice-for-BURN10-BURNVALVENAT.html, and the same for a propane valve http://www.brewershardware.com/Valve-and-LPG-Orifice-for-BURN10.html. It will take about 5 minutes to switch valves/orifices when fuel switching, and a colored ty-wrap or paint coating on the valve will help identify the fuel they were built for to save confusion later.
When using the honeywell furnace valves you need to remove the outer screw cap for the internal regulator, spring retainer, and spring to swap springs to make the fuel switch as the operating pressure ranges are different, 4-6" Wc for NG (1/6 Psi - silver spring), 11-13" Wc for propane (1/2 Psi - red spring).

 

[adamant]

The low pressure burner route will be a bit easier to build and the cost per burner will be about $100 for parts and 10" Banjo burners. If you have time and are willing to endure the auction sites you could save some money if not then here are a couple places to shop, burners AG supply, gas valve, pilot burner and thermocouple-PEX Supply.
PEX supply,
Gas valve part number Honeywell VR8300A3500
Pilot burner Q314A4586
thermocouple Q390A1061
Can be found at RV supply sites:
Low pressure LP regulator Marshall 299-00
Burners
AG supply BG-14 High Pressure Cast Iron Burner (will work well on low pressure) if gas jet is drilled out for low pressure LP

I assume that this is the honeywell valve that you are talking about. Is this specifically for automation? I was planning on running this set up manually for a little while (with an eHERMS or eRIMS for mashing). Can I get away with just the propane regulator, direct hookup to NG supply, and swapping orifices?

I will definitely be planning on upgrading the system to add more automation in the future though.

Thanks.

 

[adamant]

delete

 

[kladue]

if you plan manual control then the gas valve and pilot parts are not needed, just gas pressure regulator for LP, none for NG, and a 1/4"-1/2" valve for control. If you plan to switch fairly often then a tee in the gas manifold with one branch for NG and the other with permanent mounted regulator for LP. With isolation valves and hoses for each, you will only have to switch burner orifice valves, and connect to fuel source.

 

[maida7]

Great thread. I'm just starting my brew stand project. Trying to decide if I should use the HONEYWELL VR8300A3500 valves or a system with flame verification for added safety at an added cost.

 

[kladue]

I would go with the VR8200 series valves and save about $10 a valve, they do the same thing with slightly lower max Btu rated but still more than enough for 10" burners on LP or NG.

 

[maida7]

I would go with the VR8200 series valves and save about $10 a valve, they do the same thing with slightly lower max Btu rated but still more than enough for 10" burners on LP or NG.

Thanks for the tip. You obviously know what your talking about where as this is like learning a new language for me.

Which of the vr8200 valves on this page would be best?

Why do they all say they are regulated to 3.5"wc? I was planing on using propane at 11"wc. Will that be a problem?

How does this standing pilot systems compare with the intermittent pilot and the hot surface ignition? Seams like standing pilot is the cheapest of the three. If there a reason to spend more for one of the other systems? Safety?

Thanks for your help!