understanding high pressure versus low pressure propane

[2NobleDogs]

Thanks for the quick response Hoppy! That is what I was thinking. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. Cheers!

 

[TrickyDick]

How is your build coming 2NobleDogs?

I bought the same burners to replace my mini ring 10 jet burners - they kept leaking through the actual cast iron ring, and also at the point where the minijets were drilled.

I am having some plumbing issues with mine as far as the retrofit, since the mini ring uses 3/8 MPT and the Banjo I believe uses a 1/4" Orifice fitting whatever that's supposed to be. I got a couple with an attached valve but opposite the 1/4" MPT is a flare fitting.
Any advice on the best way to connect these Banjo type burners to my existing 1/2" flex line supply? I believe mine are constructed for low pressure LPG or NG with different orifice used depending on which you are using. So I don't believe I would need to drill out the holes.
Also for 10 Gallon batches, what might be another burner to consider for more boil kettle power, as these are not yet fully installed?

TD

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

Tricky - The Banjo burner comes with a 3/8 Flare x 1/4 MPT with a Propane size orifice (hole) and unless they were bought with NG orifices explicitly, they WILL NOT work with propane.
The flex Lines need to be changed out to 3/8 flare or 1/2 male flare x 3/8 female flare bushing
Another alternative is to order hoses from us

 

[2NobleDogs]

Tricky- I'm not sure of the details of your rig. But, mine goes like this:

1/2" gas valve stepped down to a 1/4" flared end into a low pressure regulator. 3/8" coming out of the regulator stepped up to a 1/2" flared end into the flex hose. The hose connects to a 1/2 flare into the honeywell valve. I use a 1/2"x3/8" elbow coming out of the honeywell into another flex hose which connects to the 3/8" jet into the burner. Keep in mind that the banjo burners (like mine) are "high" pressure burners. So, if you are running as a high pressure burner you will need a high pressure regulator. If you are running it as a low pressure burner you will need to drill the orifice on your jet and use a low pressure regulator. Not sure if I answered your question or not. Let me know if you need close up pics.

BTW- My rig is complete now. I ran it through a wet run today and will be brewing my first batch on it tomorrow!

 

[CollinsBrew]

Any problems with your tank freezing with that setup? I had my first experience with that on Christmas while trying fry a turkey. It's never happened before with that fryer and it was just the regulator that was freezing. I'm thinking that it was actually a problem with the tank being a little overfilled. I had them filled the day before at a fill station rather than swapping them out.

I posted this in another thread but didn't really get a response. I didn't think that low pressure vs high pressure caused that significant a loss in btu's. The orifice on a low pressure burner is larger allowing more gas through at a slower pace (lower pressure). Assuming that your air/gas ratio were the same on a low pressure vs high pressure setup and the gas flow rates were the same by volume, you would get the same btu or heat output in the end.

 

[TrickyDick]

NobleDogs-

let me know how yours works. I've got to revise my burners due to the crummy ones I had initially selected started to leak.

It looks like you've got a high pressure propane manifold Tee'd off to your Boil Kettle with manual shut-off valve. Can you tell me more about the plumbing and fittings you've used? Specifically how you've plumbed the burner orifice. I'm having a hard time finding fittings.

How tall is the flame height on the high pressure versus low pressure burners?

What valves are you using for the HLT & MT burners? is the smaller copper coloerd line for a standing pilot? if so, can you show my where you mounted on the burner ass'y?

As for my burners, they are all Low Pressure LPG, getting some appropriate Orifices as I had initially forgot to buy them. Bought from Derrin (Brewers Hardware).

Thanks and have fun with your new rig!

TD
TD

 

[2NobleDogs]

Tricky-
My BK uses the high pressure orifice that came with the burner. It connected to the manual valve with a SS gas logs hose that has a 3/8 female fitting on both ends. You will need a 3/8 flared x 1/2" adapter to connect it to the 1/2 manual valve. The HLT and MT are both low pressure so I used this orifice http://www.brewershardware.com/Valve-and-LPG-Orifice-for-BURN10.html[/URL (It sounds like you already have these). Connected these to the gas valve using a 3/8 gas log hose and a 3/8 flared x 1/2 brass elbow. The yellow hoses are typical appliance hoses you can get from lowes or HD. These hoses come with fittings and the safety valve. Because my manifold is set up for high pressure I had to use 2 low pressure regulators for the HLT & MT. If you are going to plumb your similarly I would recommend that you pick up all the parts you know you will need (i.e. hoses, valves, burners, and regulators) and then determine what fittings are needed to make all the connections. That's basically what I did. I was able to find all my fittings at a local Ace Hardware store. I've found they typically have a better selection.

The valves, thermocoupler and pilot light are:

[URL="http://www.pexsupply.com/Honeywell-VR8200A2132-1-2-24-Vac-Standing-Pilot-Gas-Valve-11588000-p"]http://www.pexsupply.com/Honeywell-VR8200A2132-1-2-24-Vac-Standing-Pilot-Gas-Valve-11588000-p

Q390A1046 - Honeywell Q390A1046 - 24" Thermocouple

Q314A4586 - Honeywell Q314A4586 - Honeywell Q314A4586 Pilot Burner

I mounted the pilot directly to the burner by straightening the bracket and using self tapping screws. I'll post a picture when I get a chance.

Check out this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/my-new-brew-system-brutus-10-some-nice-modifications-172927/ this guy did a great job on documenting his entire build. this is where I got most of the info for my build. Good luck with things and let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Clay

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

We carry the hoses...

NobleDog forgot to list the pilot tubing you will need.

 

[2NobleDogs]

oh yeah...the copper tubing is 1/4" tubing that you can pick up at Lowes/HD. Sorry.

 

[TrickyDick]

I thought the orifice was 1/4", not 3/8"

I thanks to one hoppy guy about his gas hose - what is it made of? What is the max temp tolerance? 3/8" female flare fittings? What length are these hoses?

Anyway, I think I might leave my BK as low pressure to avoid having to MOD the manifold. I can always do that later if takes too long to bring to boil.

I have similar Honeywell valves (1/2"), but I have spark ignition setup so I am fine with that. Good idea on bending the brackets. Where did you mount them to the burner though?

You have any link on your gas logs hoses or 3/8 to 1/2" adapters?

TD

 

[2NobleDogs]

It's 1/4 on the burner side and 3/8 on the other. Here is a link to McMaster Carr. They have about any gadget or whatzit you could want. I got my fittings local but you can find it all here.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#brass-pipe-fittings/=fmw5q2

I bought the hoses local also but I probably would have bought them from Hoppy had I known. I think his are a little less expensive.

Look at post #40 (page 4) on the thread I sent earlier for a picture of the pilot mount.
Clay

 

[TrickyDick]

What a total PITA!

You need to become a master pipe fitter to get this right!

I found out in the brass craft catalog (a major supplier of gas supply lines), that their supply line uses a flare nut thread of 5/8-18 for 3/8 male flare connection. Is this a standard nut thread spec?

I also found out that you can only get this specific nut thread with the pipe end having a "flared" NPTF type.

McMaster parts numbered: 50635K383 (for straight nipple connection), and also in elbow version 50635K413. Be sure to look at the CAD drawings.

No clue on the matching gas supply line, trying to interpret the brass craft catalog is next to impossible.

Can anyone verify these parts are correct for a Honeywell 1/2" furnace type valve (male NPTF)?

Thanks

TD

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

We have no problems finding the parts we need at the Local hardware stores. Ace, HomeDepot and Lowes all carry every part we need for hooking up burners to manifolds.
With one exception: we use a swivel 90 from the burner to keep things neat. We purchase that fitting through a marine supplier.
Can you tell us what pieces you are having issues connecting so we can lead you in the right direction?
Perhaps photos?

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

Here are photos I hope make it easier:

 

[TrickyDick]

thanks for the support. I will be stopping at the local hardware store. Where I live there is really only one or two that are well stocked, and they are well out of my way. The closeby stores usually are an experience in frustration. Country living. If I can't find the parts I need, I'll be sending you (One Hoppy Guy) a call. Mostly been looking online, and it's hard to make sense out of all the pipe fitting nomenclature. For instance, what we here might refer to as a 1/2" male pipe thread to 3/8" flare nipple adapter, goes by something else online. At mcMaster for example it's a pipe to tube adapter, and the threads are flared on the pipe threads to boot!

What I am going to look for tonight, is a set of 3 adapters so I can connect my pipe thread valve outlet to the flare nipple inlet on the burner via a flex hose. I have brought with me, the nipple for the burner so I can test out the fittings in the hardware store. I doubt I will find all that I need. I like your solution of the ball valve integrated to the nipple adapter for the the LPG line.

If I cannot find the parts, I'll try to take some photos so you can see what I need.

By the way to nobledogs, what flame height are you getting on your low pressure burners?

TD

 

[2NobleDogs]

I had them at about 4 inches. It worked ok but I think that was too far away. I have read elsewhere it should be at 2 inches. I will be trying that next time.

 

[TrickyDick]

I found some 1/2" to 3/8" flare nipple adapters.

Now I need some 3/8 flare flex tubes but need to see how long they need to be.
I know there are BTU ratings for these flex lines based on ID and length. My burners are 61kBtu I believe.
Local hardware store only had 1/2 and 5/8 sizes.

One Hoppy Guy, looks like your lines are the rubber type LPG lines. I'd rather use steel if I can find them, so I might be in touch. I might also want the 90degree adapters, I'll know more when I get a chance to assemble everything.

Thanks

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

More recent discussion by email with a product rep and engineer for flex lines and I now have a headache.

The bottom line was that reducing the line ID to support a small inlet orifice for the burner was not recommended by their engineer.
This gist of this was that it would impose limitations on BTUs restricting to below the burners rated value (assuming they are even accurate to being with). I simply want a clean burn and to make the rated BTUs. I'm thinking about just putting it all together and see how it works. I will say that the orifice on the the flare to 1/4 MPT fitting for the banjo burner is very small.

 

[CollinsBrew]

I'm getting to the gas set up of my rig where I'm using the honeywell valves and pilot lights. The fittings and hose I can figure out but I'm curious as to where others have bought the black gas pipe? The guy at Lowe's said they don't carry any gas pipe for whatever reason. They do have threaded galvanized pipe which I've read you can use for propane. Any confirmation on that?

The next thing are my burners. All three burners I purchased at AgriSupply. The HLT and the BK burner are the BG-14's and are listed as high pressure. The MLT burner is the smaller Multi-hole 6" and is listed as a low pressure burner. The orifice on the low pressure smaller burner looks to be exactly the same size as the orifice on the larger BG-14. Does this seem right? I'm thinking it's due to the smaller burner size thus needing less gas.

My next question has to do with drilling the orifice. What drill bits are you guys using for these? I've seen drill specs that others have posted with decimal values that I'm not familiar with. Of course, I could just be dense and not realized that they were standarized sizes converted to decimal values for some reason.

EDIT: Me and my friends Google and the Search function found the answer to the orifice drill bit question. Coincidentally, is was a thread that I had started awhile back. However, the question about my burner remains the same.

 

[kladue]

For the 6" burners a 1/16" bit is the best size to start with, 3/32" for the BG-14, and use 3/8" flare flexible gas connector lines from big box or hardware store. The flare connected gas connectors come with the pipe thread adapters so connecting to gas valve using male pipe adapter, remove adapter on other end and connect flared end directly to burner gas fitting.

 

[CollinsBrew]

Thanks Kladue...I was at Lowe's tonight picking up the parts to my manifold and picked up some 1/4" copper tubing for the pilot lights. I took one of the pilot lights with me (the Q314A) since I thought I might need some fittings. There was a compression fitting including with the pilot light and one with the actual valve. This one actually. Normally, (or so I thought) a compression fitting was two pieces, the sleeve and the nut. Will these fittings work the same way by just tightening them down on the tubing?

Also, I'm still looking for a way to get from the propane tank to the manifold with a low pressure regulator somewhere in between. I know I will eventually figure it out but I'm looking for a way to possibly piece something together for a little less cash than buying a prefabbed hose. I'm not sure if you'd recommend it but I could put a 1/2" female to barb fitting on the end of my manifold and hose clamp a repurposed turkey fryer hose on there.

EDIT: When I got into the instructions for the pilot lights, it explains the the breakaway ferrules. I guess the key is to make sure that it actually breaks away when you tighten it down. I'm headed out to the garage to drill out the orifices now...should be fun.

 

[TrickyDick]

Maybe I am too immersed in the details. My valves and manifold are all 1/2" pipe. My new burners are the bg-14 type from Derrin, meant for low pressure LPG. My conundrum is, that all the flex hoses that will fit my connections say that they will support somewhere in the 40k BTU range.

The burners are supposedly good for 60 or 61k BTU.

How is all this calculated anyway? Furthermore, I am beginning to wonder if my regulator and LPG cylinder supply line are capable of supporting the 3 burners at their stated rating! The supply hose is 1/4 HIGH pressure going into the 2 stage regulator, and connects to my 1/2" manifold by a short 1.5" long 3/8 to 1/2 adapter bushing, and its a low pressure 11" WC regulator. The old ring burners had 3/8 NPT input and connected to the flex hose (with included adapters) through a 1/2 to 3/8 street elbow pipe.

So now, what is going to be the easiest way to connect my burners? Is probably gonna be a 3/8 to 1/4 adapter to plug right into the burner inlet.
But wait! There are supposedly these orifice valves (and I am still short one), that I need to use, which have a 3/8 flare nut! BTW the orifice looks incredibly small, about 1/8" diameter or smaller. How in the world is this going to support a 60k BTU burner?

So which do I need, 3/8 to 1/4" pipe adapter or 3/8 to 3/8 flare adapter? Also, do I need RTV on the flare threads? I think the answer is no.

TD

 

[CollinsBrew]

I used a 3/8 flare to 1/4 FIP to go from the hose to the burner orifice.

 

[TrueLeaf2011]

I'm setting up my new stand and bought 3 10" hurricane burners (high pressure from Agri Supply). I also bought a 11" WC regulator from Lowes, which if I understand correctly is low pressure. I plan to change the burner orifice from high pressure to low pressure using Brewers Hardware LPG Valves. Anyway, today I decided to test the burners with their existing valves before ordering the LPG valves. The flame was really small with almost no adjustment. This seemed like it might make sense but wanted to see if it might be caused by something else.

Also, will low pressure be strong enough for my boil kettle? I'd like to go with low pressure because it's quieter and in case I ever try to automate the burner (although that get less likely as I realize the limits of my mechanical ability).

Thanks!

 

[conneryis007]

I'm setting up my new stand and bought 3 10" hurricane burners (high pressure from Agri Supply). I also bought a 11" WC regulator from Lowes, which if I understand correctly is low pressure. I plan to change the burner orifice from high pressure to low pressure using Brewers Hardware LPG Valves. Anyway, today I decided to test the burners with their existing valves before ordering the LPG valves. The flame was really small with almost no adjustment. This seemed like it might make sense but wanted to see if it might be caused by something else.

Also, will low pressure be strong enough for my boil kettle? I'd like to go with low pressure because it's quieter and in case I ever try to automate the burner (although that get less likely as I realize the limits of my mechanical ability).

Thanks!

TrueLeaf

Lots of us use low pressure for our brew rigs.

The flame was tiny due to the totally wrong air/gas mixture from the wrong urifice.

I would suggest using drill bits to open up the size of the whole in the orifice before buying "low pressure orifices". Get a couple bits each incrementally larger than the existing hole, drill test, drill test, drill test until you have the correct air/gas ratio! There are lots of threads about orifice size and I think I used something like 3/32 for my hole.

 

[kladue]

Be careful with the regulators for BBQ'S, they usually have a rating of about 35,000 btu's, not nearly enough for the hurricane burners. A Marshall 290 dual stage is the smallest regulator I would recommend as it has a 160,000 btu capacity which is adequate for 2 burners wide open on low pressure. The Marshall regulators are widely used in RV's and readily available,relatively cheap, and reliable over wide inlet pressure changes.

 

[conneryis007]

Ah good eye Kladue, didn't catch the Lowes comment...
35,000 BTU is pretty small, even for one burner running at a time!
I use a marshall 290 on my stand and have found good results with it.

 

[TrueLeaf2011]

Awesome. Thanks for your help. I'll switch regulators and try drilling.

 

[TrueLeaf2011]

Hello again,

Is there a reason to use 3/8" gas flex tube instead if 1/2"? The 1/2" is much easier to find at Home Depot or Lowes. Thanks!

 

[TrickyDick]

I finally got my new burners installed. I am having a problem getting a steady flame, which seems to vary over the course of the brew session interns of intensity and air-mix, with some soot as well. I am planning to take some time over next week to figure it out.

Everything worked fine with the mini-jet burners until they rotted out. They developed propane leaks from the cast rings though pores or pits. Multiple burners. I gave up and bought low pressure banjo style burners from brewers hardware with the orifice/valves. I had a time finding flex hose to connect these to my propane manifold and valves, and ended up using a small flex pipe, probably not rated high enough.

Did one brew on it with the new burners and the boil kettle would not stay at the proper air mix and needed constant fiddling to keep a blue flame, but reached a point at which I could not get a nice blue flame at all. Started session with a "full" standard BBQ sized cylinder.

I'm going to post some pics next week and hopefully troubleshoot and get it working.

RH