Two step mash for sweetness

[cheier]

I'm planning to brew a chocolate stout this weekend and I'm trying to figure out what options I have for getting full body sweetness with the cocoa. One option I found was to find lactose (milk) sugar, however, I'm having troubles finding any locally (or at least in the Calgary area), so since I'm brewing Sunday morning, I'm trying to figure out some options and would like some advice.

One option I found was to use Splenda. Since I was planning to use about .75 lbs of milk sugar, I'm not sure how Splenda would compare. Maybe a little goes further? Somewhere around 50-80% less required?

The other option that came in mind was to to a step mash. I was figuring mash around 148F for about 30 minutes, upping that to 156F for the rest of the conversion. I think this might be a more natural way to try and create sweetness, but since I've only done single infusion mashes, I'm leaving it to you guys to help me out on this.

I am planning an OG of around 1.065 (give or take), but I would like to see it finish around 1.020. I'm working with Wyeast 1084 Irish Ale.

 

[Nateo]

Keep the mash thick, like 1qt/pound. Alpha-amylase denatures quickly in a thin mash. I'd do a single infusion at 158* if I wanted a high FG. I routinely do multi-step mashes to get highly fermentable wort, so I don't think a step mash will do what you're looking for.

 

[djsethall]

Please correct me if I am mistaken. The maltiness (sweetness) of your finished product comes from the temperature that you mash at during sachirification. If I am doing a light bodied beer (IPA, Blonde Ale, Amber Ale), generally I shoot for 150-152 degrees. If I want a malty (sweet) beer like a chocolate stout, I mash at aroung 156-158 degrees. We have also added 2 lbs of flaked oats to every batch we have done since finding it for added mouthfeel. We do 12.5 gallon batches, so adjust accordingly for weight. Right now I got two cornies of chocolate hazelnut oatmeal porter carbing. Tried it the other day, still a little green, but damn good!!!

 

[cheier]

So do you do the high temps as a single infusion with batch sparge, or is there a mash-out step in there? I'm looking at the default settings in beersmith for a full body batch sparge and it shows a 45 minute step. I modified it to be 0.25G/lb grain, would up just up that to a 60 minute, or should I include a mash-out step in there at 168-170F for 15 after a 45 minute 158F step?

 

[djsethall]

I use the double infusion single sparge for myself. I use beersmith also. Due to size limitations, I have to monkey with the amounts of water for each step, but soon that will be a thing of the past. New double MLT system on the way, check out the thread

 

[Northcalais40]

Doing a mash out step at 170F at the end will help you retain unfermentable dextrines.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Maltiness and sweetness aren't really the same thing. A higher mash temp gets you longer sugars, which do add to the body of the beer, but aren't sweet at all. For a really sweet beer in a bottle, you probably do need some kind of unfermentable sweetener. If you just want something that's fuller bodied and firmly malty, mashing higher will help, as will the right kind of yeast and fermentation schedule. Crystal malts may be another possibility.

 

[Northcalais40]

I may be mistaken, but I believe that two grain bills being identical, and one being mashed higher temp, that one will tend to have more dextrines, higher final gravity, and taste sweeter. I've never heard before that longer chain sugars don't taste sweet.

 

[cheier]

I guess I'll find out soon. I decided to mash at 158F for 45 minutes with a 15 minute mash-out at 170F. Brew day will be tomorrow morning. If it doesn't work out, I guess I'll be wiser for it...

 

[Dr. Francois]

you can always add lactose after it is finished fermenting.
I like your plan, though.

 

[djsethall]

Keep me posted on yer results please.

 

[cheier]

The wort didn't have much sweetness as GuldTuborg mentioned. It was certainly a more malty flavor. It almost seems to me that some type of sugar addition would be more ideal, but since I don't have any lactose, that's out the question. I'll let this one ferment through and give my two bits on it with the recipe, then try my hand at another one right after.

It did smell nice and sweet in the mash tun though. It just didn't taste it.

 

[djsethall]

How did it turn out?

 

[GuldTuborg]

I've never heard before that longer chain sugars don't taste sweet.

Some polysaccharides don't taste sweet at all. Starches are excellent examples. Think of potatoes and such. Some longer chain sugars are somewhat sweet. Think lactose. This is why some high FG beers taste sweet and some don't. Some low FG beers taste sweet and some (or, a lot) don't. It mostly has to do with what kinds of sugars are present in the wort and which ones the yeast eat. I'm no expert on the matter, but I know enough to know it's not at all simple.

 

[Stout-n-Braggot]

Increasing the amount of any crystal malts in the grain bill will increase sweetness due to unfermentable sugars.

 

[jamest22]

Here is an excerpt from George Fix's book The Principles of Brewing Science about the flavor characteristics produced by residual sugars and dextrins.

"The role played by residual sugars, such as dextrins discussed in IB, is less clear. Careful experiments where these sugars are isolated and examined in water solutions show that they are essentially tasteless and definitely have no sweetness. In contrast, commercial experience with both "light" and "dry" beers shows their removal will affect the body and mouth feel of the beer. A blind tasting of regular Michelob and Michelob Dry is an excellent way to demonstrate this point" -- George Fix, Principles of Brewing Science