Turning 25, can I make a beer that will last 25+ years?

[CarbonTom]

This is indeed possible...I first got the idea from Lindeman lambic, who packages at least some of their product this way. I played around with the idea using some DFH champagne style bombers that I have saved, and I can tell you for sure it works with those. I was thinking about doing this method for some mead that is designed to be aged (but which is currently sleeping in a corney keg).

The bottle that the OP linked looks like it could work...still it might not be a bad idea to call NB and ask them if they could confirm that you can fit a standard wine cork in them before you spring for purchase (and shipping) on 2 cases of them. Or see if you can buy just one to try it out.

I shot them an email, and basically got a generic response that these are the ones designed for the cap and if I wanted to cork I should use the cork 375ml. I don't think they actually read my question, just saw the link I posted haha. I emailed after hours, so I'll give them a call today and see.

 

[biochemedic]

I like the idea of corking, capping, waxing, and then vacuum sealing.

Me too! I think if you couple this seemingly overkill process with bottle conditioning (which should scrub out most if not all of the oxygen in solution/headspace), and store cool and dark, you could conceivably age for as long as you propose.

I like the idea of these: http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/375-ml-belgian-style-beer-bottles-crown-finish.html. I definitely want to go with smaller bottles since I wont be constrained to 1 every year. Since the necks are most likely identical to the ones that are designed to be corked, they probably will not shatter right? I have never corked anything before so I really know nothing of this. Are there different length corks? Or would I have to push them down extra far, or cut off the excess on the top so I can cap?

I also am increasingly using smaller bottle to package at least some of my meads and bigger beers. Regarding the linked bottles, I'm pretty sure they would stand up to the corking process, but the ones with the "cork top" are probably intended to be used with mushroom style corks like you find in champagne and some Belgian beers; usually they also have the wire cage put on as well... The question is whether the neck is straight and narrow enough to create a seal with a regular wine cork.

There are different length corks...I think the standard is 1.5 inches. Most any corker will put the cork down to the level of the bottle edge, which is all you'd need to then cap them (with O2 absorbing caps, of course!) I doubt you'd have to cut any corks...in fact, with the lever corker I use, you can actually push the cork down a little below the edge of the glass...

As I mentioned in the previous post, a call to NB or purchase of one bottle, and perhaps a couple of kinds of corks, to play around with might be worthwhile.

 

[CarbonTom]

I will let you guys know what I find out.

I am also just realizing that I know nothing about fermenting big beers such as this. I have been reading up on fermentation schedule. I was away for the weekend and fermentation kicked off after 2 days lag time. The temps from the fermentation def got a bit high since they were 74+ when I got home on the 3rd day. I dropped the ambient temps and I think its still 70-72 range. I have a fridge that I use to lager that is empty at the moment. What would a good temp be to have it sit at? Also with a massive beer like this, should I really be racking to 2ndary as soon as 6 weeks? Both my carboys are 6.5 gallons, and I have probably about 5 gallons of liquid (+/- with trub and blowoff loss). Should I worry about bulk aging with that much headspace? Is it just best for me to bottle right after I hit my FG and age in a closed system? Also how does one determine how much bottling yeast and sugar to use (I havent bottled in like 4 years and cannot let these be bombs or over carbed) I've also never bottled anything above 6%.

I ask so many damn questions don't I? But you all are so helpful!! I greatly appreciate all the help and insight you guys have given me. I feel like this dream is really going to come true!

 

[biochemedic]

I will let you guys know what I find out.

I am also just realizing that I know nothing about fermenting big beers such as this. I have been reading up on fermentation schedule. I was away for the weekend and fermentation kicked off after 2 days lag time. The temps from the fermentation def got a bit high since they were 74+ when I got home on the 3rd day. I dropped the ambient temps and I think its still 70-72 range. I have a fridge that I use to lager that is empty at the moment. What would a good temp be to have it sit at? Also with a massive beer like this, should I really be racking to 2ndary as soon as 6 weeks? Both my carboys are 6.5 gallons, and I have probably about 5 gallons of liquid (+/- with trub and blowoff loss). Should I worry about bulk aging with that much headspace? Is it just best for me to bottle right after I hit my FG and age in a closed system? Also how does one determine how much bottling yeast and sugar to use (I havent bottled in like 4 years and cannot let these be bombs or over carbed) I've also never bottled anything above 6%.

I ask so many damn questions don't I? But you all are so helpful!! I greatly appreciate all the help and insight you guys have given me. I feel like this dream is really going to come true!

Ah yes, temp control...still the hardest variable for me as well, not having yet been able to spring for a chamber, probe and controller...

Can you flush the carboy, and then flush the headspace with CO2? Won't eliminate *all* of the oxygen, but will get most. Even better, any reason why you can't just do whatever period of clearing and bulk aging right in primary? I don't think a month or three on the yeast will harm anything, especially if you can cold crash, and then after you bring back up to room temp you can bottle....

There are any number of online calculators to figure out how much priming sugar you need to achieve your desired vol CO2 of carbonation. I would use corn sugar...I think it's the most reliable, and it's easy to work with. You might want to have a little higher than average vol CO2 carbonation...I'd do at least 2.2 to 2.4.

In terms of adding fresh yeast at bottling...there was a whole little section on that in "Brew Like a Monk" that I used when I did this for the last big beer I did (the caramel quad for one of the 12 Beers of Xmas project...) There were examples and cell counts and such...I want to say that after all due consideration, I just added a full White Labs vial of the fermentation strain that I had used. Unless someone else can answer your question beforehand, I will try to look up my notes on that brew, and check the section of the book in question as well before you bottle.

One other thing I was thinking about that I would mention, since you aren't used to corking... After you bottle, I would store the bottles upside down for a month or two...you want to get the corks good and soaked with the bottled product so they make a nice tight seal. Later on you can give them a good shake to loosen any sediment that has started to form in the neck of the bottle, and then store them upright so the sediment collects at the bottom. Of course, initially you want to store the bottles in a fairly warm place too (80's to even 90's F if possible), so they can condition and carbonate effectively...

 

[grathan]

It's too late to worry about the high temps. Moving it to a lager fridge now might cause the yeast to drop out.

If your gonna be opening the fermenter to check on FG, then each time you do the air from outside is gonna be getting in.

If you have a glass carboy I would rack to that after krausen starts to drop. The reason being you have a bunch of dead yeast in there.

If all you have is plastic, I would just leave it for 2-3 weeks without touching it and then rack to bottles. It should be fairly clear by that point which would indicate the yeast have dropped out.




If you have a fridge you should really learn to use it for temperature control. I bet this beer costs 2x what it would cost to make a controller.

 

[CarbonTom]

It's too late to worry about the high temps. Moving it to a lager fridge now might cause the yeast to drop out.

If your gonna be opening the fermenter to check on FG, then each time you do the air from outside is gonna be getting in.

If you have a glass carboy I would rack to that after krausen starts to drop. The reason being you have a bunch of dead yeast in there.

If all you have is plastic, I would just leave it for 2-3 weeks without touching it and then rack to bottles. It should be fairly clear by that point which would indicate the yeast have dropped out.


If you have a fridge you should really learn to use it for temperature control. I bet this beer costs 2x what it would cost to make a controller.

Im in a plastic carboy, I have a temp controller too...I just didnt think to use it when I finished up the brew day at 2:30 AM I have't been opening it, nor do I plan to for a while. Whats the difference between glass and plastic in this case? Since I can see when the krausen drops, should I still xfer? Should I borrow a friends CO2 gun to purge headspace when I xfer or is that futile?

Edit: Adding this in: Since I can control the temp, would slowly dropping the ambient temps down still cause them to drop out? The optimum temps for the WLP 090 says 65-68, its not too much of a change

 

[grathan]

It will be OK either way. Just minor things.

Plastic bucket might have more air leaks than a carboy (depending on lid seal) is all. If you're getting temperature swings this invites oxygen into any cracks in the fermenter. Not a big deal unless it sits for a long time and has been opened dozens of times. Even still, slight oxygenation is somewhat desirable in an aged, big big beer.

 

[max384]

I shot them an email, and basically got a generic response that these are the ones designed for the cap and if I wanted to cork I should use the cork 375ml. I don't think they actually read my question, just saw the link I posted haha. I emailed after hours, so I'll give them a call today and see.

If you read the wine forums, you'll see many threads about injuries from corking beer bottles. Some of these injuries are pretty severe, similar to carboy injuries.

You can find different sized corks that will fit beer bottles. However, the problem comes with whether the neck of the beer bottle can handle the cork. Most beer bottles are not designed for this and run a high risk of breaking either during corking or uncorking.

If I were you, I'd buy the smaller 375 ml (about 12.5 oz) wine bottles and cork them. And then do a wax dip. It would look cool on a long-aged beer, and help to prevent the cork from drying out. Make sure to store the bottles on their sides to also help keep the cork from drying out.

 

[CarbonTom]

Just got off the phone with NB and the guy said that the http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/375-ml-belgian-style-beer-bottles-crown-finish.html

should have the same structural integrity as the http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/375-ml-belgian-style-beer-bottles-cork-finish.html

so I should be fine corking it before capping. So I think that is going to be the course of action.

He also said it should take either a #7 or #8 cork. Should I go with the skinnier of the two to be safe?

 

[Leithoa]

f I were you, I'd buy the smaller 375 ml (about 12.5 oz) wine bottles and cork them.

Using wine bottles as pressure vessels is a gamble.
You may be able to find lots of free champagne bottles on craigslists or through your social network. The upcoming holiday season may line up well with your bottling sessions, or maybe you could line your bottling time table up with new years.

 

[rideincircles]

This thread is interesting.

I always thought using a keg filled with co2 would be a good way to make a time chamber and keep oxygen from decomposing whatever was put inside. A few bottles could fit in one easily if a keg could be sacrificed for long term storage. Then oxygen could be controlled by adding more co2 over time.

Corking and capping the Belgian bottles sounds like a good idea for long term storage.

I was thinking if you want to bulk age and check occasionally, you could add a spoonful of sugar to the beer to add more co2 naturally to the container and push out the oxygen.

Just some random thoughts.

 

[TNGabe]

Long boils are good for Barleywine. Helps form extra malliard compounds and will help the malt perception.

Although I agree a long boil is good for a barleywine of other high grav beer, I think Malliard reaction occurs at temps well above that of boiling wort.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Although I agree a long boil is good for a barleywine of other high grav beer, I think Malliard reaction occurs at temps well above that of boiling wort.

My understanding the reactions occur more rapidly at the upper end of the range, but they still occurred slowly at boiling temperature. Not a chemist, so if they're not technically maillard reactions/melanoidins, then I don't know what to call them, but there's definitely a character and darkening from the long boil.

 

[Osedax]

My understanding the reactions occur more rapidly at the upper end of the range, but they still occurred slowly at boiling temperature. Not a chemist, so if they're not technically maillard reactions/melanoidins, then I don't know what to call them, but there's definitely a character and darkening from the long boil.

This. Maillard reactions are what give even the lightest baked bread most of their flavor. Long boils help enhance maltiness but, can also reduce fermentability slightly.

 

[CarbonTom]

In my opinion it is worth a try. I mean worst to come is you have spent 50$ and 4 hours of hard labour. Odds are that the beer will be good are thin however, having to taste a 25 year old beer doesn't happen everyday. Also it will be a huge milestone for OP to get to try it. Again, In my opinion.

I opened this thread and saw this again....I actually ended up spending $100 and ~9 hours on this beer haha. I still cant wait to see how it turns out!

 

[BeerGrylls]

I opened this thread and saw this again....I actually ended up spending $100 and ~9 hours on this beer haha. I still cant wait to see how it turns out!

Hey, that's only four dollars a year, right?

 

[CarbonTom]

Welp, its been fermenting for 12 days, krausen has fallen and it is starting to clear up a bit. What do you guys think? Take a grav sample? Or wait longer and not risk the oxidation?

 

[Cheesy_Goodness]

Normally no harm in taking a sample, but given what you're trying to do I'd let it sit alone for another few weeks, minimum.

Something as big as what you brewed can only benefit from being left alone

 

[Osedax]

Normally no harm in taking a sample, but given what you're trying to do I'd let it sit alone for another few weeks, minimum.

Something as big as what you brewed can only benefit from being left alone

This. Normal doesn't apply to a beer like this.

Take a hydro sample in a few weeks and then again a week later. If it is stable, bottle it. Or, let it condition on the cake if that is your preference.

 

[grathan]

Welp, its been fermenting for 12 days, krausen has fallen and it is starting to clear up a bit. What do you guys think? Take a grav sample? Or wait longer and not risk the oxidation?

I always ask myself this and then ask myself what I am really gonna do about it if I miss my target.

 

[CarbonTom]

Well, I just found a distillery nearby that is selling some 5 gallon used barrels, so I think I might grab one and age it in there. Tomorrow will be 4 weeks in primary. I have a choice of single malt, smoked single malt (I imagine this would be like an islay?), bourbon, House (barley, corn, rye and wheat) and Rye Whiskeys. What do you guys think?

How long should/can this bad boy sit in oak? Can you do it too long?

Does anyone have a good reference to first time barrel aging procedures?

Thanks!

 

[CarbonTom]

Quick change of heart. I've never done it before and I don't want to wreck it by messing with it

 

[grathan]

Barrels are designed to oxidize beer which may or may not be a good thing. AIH sells smaller oak barrels, though not previously used, you could always add bourbon flavor. So that if the oxidized flavor doesn't bode well, you still have couple gallons non-oxidized version.

http://www.homebrewing.org/Oak-Barrels_c_316.html


I think Gordon Strong's book talks a little about barrels, but he also blew himself up torching one so probably not the best source of info.


Here is a thread with some info:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/aging-beer-oak-barrels-204419/

 

[Calichusetts]

Just grab some oak chips or spirals and soak them in your favorite bourbon for a few weeks. Add them for a few more. No real risks and a great reward. I do this often.

 

[solbes]

Agree on just adding oak to your secondary. I'd go oak cubes or oak spirals and ditch the chip idea (too fussy on when they need to be removed due to high surface area). The oak will fade some as well, so over oaking will be very hard to do. 2-3 oz of cubes for 3-4 weeks would be my suggestion. I added 1.5 oz for 7 weeks and it faded in my RIS, though still present at 2 years.

I oaked a portion of my 12% barleywine (about a year old) with most of it unoaked. I wish I had gone the other way around and oaked the larger portion of bottles.

 

[CarbonTom]

Thanks guys! I will look into cubes.

 

[CarbonTom]

Welp, I was just thinking about bottling tonight, and decided to take a grav sample, and I am sitting at 1.035. My target was supposed to be 1.027, so I am somewhat close. This being my first massive beer, I am unsure as to whether or not this is an acceptable FG. I did just happen to make a little 2 gallon beer with some super high grav yeast or whatever its called that I had laying around. Should I rack onto that yeast cake (gently) and see if I can drop it down a bit? Or should I just accept it for what it is, and get ready for the next step and get it in bottles? I mean I am sitting at a stone cold 12% abv which I am totally happy with, I am just worried about the balance of the sweetness.

Its funny in retrospect, in the past 4 months I have recently gotten into lambics, and am wishing I had taken one of the original suggestions and tried to do a mock gueuze. Oh well, maybe at 30.

 

[JKaranka]

You'll be fine.

 

[solbes]

Its going to be pretty sweet. I would consider going the other way around and introducing some of your yeast cake into the vessel with the 1.035 beer. Make up a 1-2 pint starter that is strong (say 1.070, so as to not dilute out much of your beer). Add a cup or two of the slurry from the cake. Pitch the entire thing about 12 hours later at high krausen. You will probably need another 1.5-2 weeks to drop it down, but keep an eye on it.

 

[CarbonTom]

Its going to be pretty sweet. I would consider going the other way around and introducing some of your yeast cake into the vessel with the 1.035 beer. Make up a 1-2 pint starter that is strong (say 1.070, so as to not dilute out much of your beer). Add a cup or two of the slurry from the cake. Pitch the entire thing about 12 hours later at high krausen. You will probably need another 1.5-2 weeks to drop it down, but keep an eye on it.

That is a great idea. Would introducing an aerated starter impart oxidation taste to the beer though? Or is the concept that it would all get fermented out again?