Turning 25, can I make a beer that will last 25+ years?

[BeerGrylls]

What do hops do for a lambic then?

https://byo.com/stories/item/975-lambic-brewing

From the article you linked: "Brewing a lambic does take a little advanced planning as lambic is the only style that needs well-aged hops. There should be no hop aroma, flavor or bitterness in a lambic, but you do need the hops for their preservative properties. "

 

[TimFarAway]

What if you put the bottles in an air tight container filled with CO2? Might be hard to maintain pressure for 25 years, but I would think it would eliminate the flavor destroying oxygenation. Sort of like a time capsule.

 

[Leithoa]

I second the idea of a sour(I'd choose Flemish red) or RIS.

Packaging plays a big role but you might as well pick a style that benefits or hides some of the oxidation flavors.
I've got some 2012 120min IPA that I open once a year and it seems to be doing ok. The second year all the hop flavors were gone and it wasn't really balanced but I just opened a bottle and it was way more balanced/mellow.

There are also oxygen absorbing crown caps out there you can use to help limit oxidation.

 

[Osedax]

Humidity is a huge concern. Make sure it is maintained precisely throughout the aging. No matter what you do, you will get oxygen in and CO2 out. The pressure difference will make this happen. It will go right through the glass/wax/cap/whatever. It is a conservation law. Can't remember which one though...

Good luck with this. It is very ambitious. Even if it doesn't work, it is still worth the effort.

Make sure you upload this to hive-mind-collective-robot-overlord computers in 50 years!

 

[Qhrumphf]

What do hops do for a lambic then?

https://byo.com/stories/item/975-lambic-brewing

My understanding is that the hops inhibit some of the nastier bugs early on and allow the desirable ones to gain a better foothold. Once you have alcohol (or alcohol plus acidity in Lambic) the antimicrobial properties of both trump the slight antimicrobial properties provided by hops.

 

[Cheesy_Goodness]

What if you put the bottles in an air tight container filled with CO2? Might be hard to maintain pressure for 25 years, but I would think it would eliminate the flavor destroying oxygenation. Sort of like a time capsule.

Just had a thought based on this.

This might be totally stupid and not work at all, but what if you follow the packaging advice given on here already (02 caps, waxing, etc), then use a vacuum sealer around the bottle? Just pop the whole bottle in the bag and seal it up like you would anything else. It may or may not last 25 years but you could rebag it if you see it's getting filled with air.

 

[grathan]

1.080 isn't really that high. You should try a few practice beers in that range and then try to get to 1.125 or something respectable.

A lot of flavor is gonna drop out in that time so I would read up on ingredients that might sustain some flavor, perhaps some Lyles syrup or molasses.

 

[azazel1024]

I'd bet you could still have good beer with a little carbonation after 5. By 10 I would guess carbonation would be gone and oxidation would set in (even if you did everything right). By 25 you'd have no carbonation and would be drinking wet cardboard. This for a 12-14% beer which is about as strong as you can make with standard brewing techniques.

Yeah if you went through all of the high ABV tricks and had a beer that was 16-20%, I bet it would stand up. But thats a lot of time, effort, and expense to make a beer that really won't taste all that great even when it peaks.

I do have three beers that I will keep for as long as they are not oxidized, which I'm guessing will be about 5-7 years: a 12% RIS, a 12% Barleywine, and a 10.5% Dark Strong. May only drink one a year when I get down to a sixer.

I don't know. One of my club members gets Brooklyn Black Chocolate Stout every year. Cases and cases of it. Recently we opened some of the earlier ones. If I am remember right, we had 7 years of beer (could have been 6, might have been 8). They all had very similar levels of carbonation and the flavor deffinitely varied. My favorite was 4 years old, but the oldest was still very pleasant, but at a guess I'd say that the flavors were starting to "turn". It wouldn't surpise me if to ME it might not be pleasant in another 2-3 years.

It isn't exactly a light beer, but I've deffinitely seen heavier. I think three keys will be lots of hops, low storage temperature and fairly high alcohol (minimum 8% and >10% would be better). The club member only stored it in his partially sunken basement, so figure 60-70F storage temperature year round. Chemical reactions increase SIGNIFICANTLY as temperature changes. IIRC a change of 10F is sufficient to double reaction rate.

So storing at 40F or so could mean that after 16 years, you'd have the same impact as if you had stored at at 60F for 4 years. Even if my memory is wrong about chemical reaction rates, you are still looking at slowing them down a lot by cold storing it.

Me personally, I have some RIS at 10.5% and honestly I taste little difference over the last 6 months. I wouldn't personally try to make it 25 years (because I'd drink it all LONG before then. Not enough self control), but at some point I do want to try to make "special" batches where I am drinking them over the course of 2-4 years. I would with my RIS (a coffee oatmeal RIS), but I mad such a tiny batch, only 12-12oz and 2-22oz is all I managed out of it that I've drank all my 12-oz and all I have left are my 22oz. Those are getting saved for special occasions. I am thinking maybe Thanksgiving and New Years this year.

 

[CarbonTom]

1.080 isn't really that high. You should try a few practice beers in that range and then try to get to 1.125 or something respectable.

A lot of flavor is gonna drop out in that time so I would read up on ingredients that might sustain some flavor, perhaps some Lyles syrup or molasses.

My recipe is pushing 1.127 at 50% efficiency after bumping up the DME.



I like the idea of vacuum packing each bottle!!! I am definitely going to try that! I'm sure as long as the seal is good they will last a really really long time while cold and out of UV rays.

 

[CarbonTom]

Removed dupe post....damn app

 

[grathan]

oops, sorry , missed the recipe the first time through. Looks good. Kinda hoppy/syrupy. I would drink most of them in the first 2 years just to be safe.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Just in case anyone doubted that a well made Gueuze can make it 25 years...

Apparently Cantillon just bought a new building or something, and popped a 1990 Gueuze to celebrate. Pic is from their Facebook.

 

[CarbonTom]

Well that's kinda the point since it thins out over time apparently. I hope it will finish a bit lower but I dong know. Maybe some simple sugar to dry it out?

 

[BeerGrylls]

FYI, beta acids become more important than alphas on long-term aged beers. It's got to do with the way beta acids oxidize and become more bitter as alpha bittering vanishes.

 

[Jsamp]

Maybe this idea it's silly but it seems oxygen is the biggest enemy of long term storage. What if bottles were stored long term in vacuum sealed packages and stored in a cool dark place?

 

[Osedax]

Brett had the ability to stave off oxidation much longer than normal brewer's yeast. It can also live longer in more adverse conditions. Granted, this won't work for 25 years but, it might keep oxidation at bay for the first few years. A little brett character is fine in an English barleywine.

I think it was New Belgium that experimented using a very tiny amount of brett in each batch to extend shelf life without impacting flavor.

 

[Leithoa]

Chemical reactions increase SIGNIFICANTLY as temperature changes. IIRC a change of 10F is sufficient to double reaction rate.

It's 10C but the rest is correct.

 

[CarbonTom]

Brett had the ability to stave off oxidation much longer than normal brewer's yeast. It can also live longer in more adverse conditions. Granted, this won't work for 25 years but, it might keep oxidation at bay for the first few years. A little brett character is fine in an English barleywine.

I think it was New Belgium that experimented using a very tiny amount of brett in each batch to extend shelf life without impacting flavor.

Thats an interesting idea. I would have no idea how much (little) to put in though. And also is it true that once you use equipment with brett you can only use them for sours after? I use plastic better bottles, so I would hate to lose a carboy to something I don't plan on doing often.

 

[Leithoa]

... is it true that once you use equipment with brett you can only use them for sours after?

It's an overblown scenario. IF your plastic is gouged and IF you don't perfectly sanitize after use there can be some cross contamination. At a commercial scale it's sometimes easier/cheaper to just buy a second set of equipment.

Think about how man people get infected beer and continue to use the same equipment with no contamination. If you sanitize well everything should be fine. If you're really concerned, a hot bleach soak for 20-30 min will kill everything. If you're lazy like me, just fill it before you go to bed and empty it the next day.

EDIT:
Wild yeast and Sour strains can survive acid wash so iodophor or an exceptionally long(15min) acid soak would be in order. Make sure your bleach is <6mo old as it does age over time.

 

[podz]

I'd love to know someone's highly educated or experienced opinion. In my mind, it wouldn't hold up unless you got into 18% or higher, and I would think it would be undrinkable. My thoughts are that this is why scotch is aged for 12,15,18, etc and mellowed with the cask.

Edit. Well against my ignorant opinion, a little search of the Goog brought me to this article. Might at least give you a direction. I may give this a go in the future as well. Turns out I was totally wrong.

http://imbibemagazine.com/Cellaring-Beer

In know this is regarding beer, but I'll just give my thoughts on the subject regarding wine. Wines that are meant for aging typically need to be quite acidic or relatively high ABV. For example, Bordeaux (quite acidic) and Amarone (relatively high ABV) can age quite well.

 

[CarbonTom]

It's an overblown scenario. IF your plastic is gouged and IF you don't perfectly sanitize after use there can be some cross contamination. At a commercial scale it's sometimes easier/cheaper to just buy a second set of equipment.

Think about how man people get infected beer and continue to use the same equipment with no contamination. If you sanitize well everything should be fine. If you're really concerned, a hot bleach soak for 20-30 min will kill everything. If you're lazy like me, just fill it before you go to bed and empty it the next day.

Good info to have! Thanks. I am less afraid to experiment with brett in the future.

 

[Osedax]

Good info to have! Thanks. I am less afraid to experiment with brett in the future.

If you are interested you should check out Michael Tonsmeire's (Oldsock) book "American Sour Beers". It has great info on microbes and, for you, aging beers. I pulled the below from his book.

He says that the absorption of oxygen is directly influenced by the air composition around the bottle as opposed to the amount of pressure in the bottle. This is Fick's laws of diffusion. Basically, the vacuum sealer pack should work but, what would work better is a bath of pure nitrogen (good luck with that). Also, oxygen scavenger caps as opposed to waxing corks.

Sorry, I couldn't find the info on pitching brett to prevent oxidation and extend shelf life. It is in the book. I just didn't look that hard for it. I know that it was an incredibly tiny amount. Maybe 5-20 cells/mL? Honestly, that still might be too much.

 

[grathan]

My first huge beer was a Scottish style. It didn't matter that it was kinda sweet or lacked hopped flavors. They only made it 2 years though before consumed. The recipe was from the internet called Kilt Lifter, not the 1.080 one, it was much bigger.


ACtually thinking about it, I did make a RIS that sat in my garage for 15 years. It still had the high fermented temp off flavors that it did 15 years ago. I know that isn't relevant, but interesting. It still had the roast flavors, I would almost dare to say the flavor didn't change much at all. They froze in the winter and baked in the summer. I used 1L grolsch cap bottles that remained carbed through the freezing/thaw cycles. I didn't drink them all and dumped them a year or two ago. One thing I would consider if doing this again might be putting some weight down on the caps instead of relying on the spring mechanism.

I think stout ages very well too. The dry oxidized/ bacterial flavors only augment the overall flavor.



Another lighter beer I currently have in my fridge going on 3 years is Jamil's Old Ale recipe. That tastes good too. That actually sat warm with all the gas drained out of the keg for a few months (the top has leaks).

 

[sikkingj]

My brew club (burp.org) had a group brew from 25 years ago - it was surprisingly drinkable. As we only had one bottle, we all got a wee drop.

I also liked the idea of using 25 in the recipe so that means you'll need 25 lbs. of grain for your brew. And if you making such a large beer think about a party-gle - making a small beer with your high gravity mash..

BTW, this is a great idea...


Sent from the window of an airplane...

 

[CarbonTom]

My brew club (burp.org) had a group brew from 25 years ago - it was surprisingly drinkable. As we only had one bottle, we all got a wee drop.

I also liked the idea of using 25 in the recipe so that means you'll need 25 lbs. of grain for your brew. And if you making such a large beer think about a party-gle - making a small beer with your high gravity mash..

BTW, this is a great idea...


Sent from the window of an airplane...

Thanks! I am very sad to say that I cant do 25 lbs of grain...I have a 10 gallon cooler for a mash tun. Maybe I can go thicker and just up it? I bought the ingredients tonight and there is a lb of rice hulls I added so im at 24..I must be able to squeeze in another lb.

Officially doing the recipe from my earlier post, but with 5 lb dme, and Wyeast 4347 Extreme Fermentation. I bought 2 smack packs and am making a 2 liter starter tomorrow and will let it go ham until I brew thursday.

 

[feinbera]

Maybe I can go thicker and just up it? I bought the ingredients tonight and there is a lb of rice hulls I added so im at 24..I must be able to squeeze in another lb.

Go for it! At 1.2 qt/lb, you're "only" at 9.5 gallons... you'll have to be careful when you stir the mash, but, hey, we all must suffer for our art. A thinner mash might be preferable, but you'll wanna do a long a mash on a beer this big anyway, right? A little longer on the mash and a little more care in the stirring is well worth not having to put "yeah, I'm turning 25... so I put almost 25 lbs of grain in, but couldn't quite pull it off" on the labels.

 

[CarbonTom]

Go for it! At 1.2 qt/lb, you're "only" at 9.5 gallons... you'll have to be careful when you stir the mash, but, hey, we all must suffer for our art. A thinner mash might be preferable, but you'll wanna do a long a mash on a beer this big anyway, right? A little longer on the mash and a little more care in the stirring is well worth not having to put "yeah, I'm turning 25... so I put almost 25 lbs of grain in, but couldn't quite pull it off" on the labels.

Hah! Okay you sold me. I'll do it. Should I do a 90 min mash?

 

[Leithoa]

I also liked the idea of using 25 in the recipe so that means you'll need 25 lbs. of grain for your brew.

I've got a recipe for a RIS that uses right around 25lbs of grain. We split the runnings into the RIS and a porter. I can dig it up if there's interes.

 

[Calichusetts]

You can always do a double mash. It will lengthen your brew day significantly but since your really planning a special beer, make it a special brew day.

Just mash most of your Pale malt first and proceed as normal. Once boiling, start a second mash with the rest of your recipe. By the time you start adding the second volume to your boil...it should be reduced enough to not have any issues with your kettle size.

I've done this a few times. Great caramelization, color and flavor for a barleywine. Mine last one ended up with a 3.5 hour boil. You will also fine that you should hit your normal efficiency numbers with two "normal" size mashes instead of one large one.

 

[CarbonTom]

You can always do a double mash. It will lengthen your brew day significantly but since your really planning a special beer, make it a special brew day.

Just mash most of your Pale malt first and proceed as normal. Once boiling, start a second mash with the rest of your recipe. By the time you start adding the second volume to your boil...it should be reduced enough to not have any issues with your kettle size.

I've done this a few times. Great caramelization, color and flavor for a barleywine. Mine last one ended up with a 3.5 hour boil. You will also fine that you should hit your normal efficiency numbers with two "normal" size mashes instead of one large one.

I would love to do this, but my brew day is going to be starting at 5pm haha. Although, I have a buddy helping out, maybe I can have him bring his mlt and I can split it in half and mash both simultaneously?

And I think I might try and partigyle it. Is it possible to collect preboil wort to boil another day? If I just toss the second runnings in a sanitized carboy and let it sit a couple days until I can do another boil. Would that work?