Turbid Mash - Is it worth it

[two_hearted]

There's probably a few threads like this out there, but the search function on this site is so terrible I couldn't turn anything up.

Is it worth the extra effort and time?

 

[Coff]

Youre going to get a very wide variety of answers here. I would say, it depends, lol. I believe a dextrinous wort is important, but am not sure that a full on turbid mash is the is the only route. I think blending is more important in a finished product then mash regime. I feel biodiversity is pretty damn important as well.

I have recently been doing wort only decoctions to hit various temperature rests, still labor intensive but a little easier than when I had turbid mashed in the past.

 

[dantheman13]

I've never done a turbid mash, but I have made award winning sours with 100% extract. I would have to second what Coff said and say that doing a turbid mash, if it is important, is pretty low on the "importance scale", especially considering other easier methods for getting starch into the wort.

 

[marvaden]

Also, another point is timing of when the bugs are added. If they are added early, I would say a turbid mash would probably be less necessary since there is more sugar that they will be able to eat. The later you pitch the bugs, the more advanced starch reserves you need to feed your bugs.

Mind you, there are varieties of lacto bugs (pedio/lactobacillus) that produce the enzymes to convert starches to sugars, as do most brettanomyces strains to various degrees.

So, all said and done, it comes down to:
1. When do you want to pitch the bugs?
2. How sour do you want it?
3. What end flavors are you going for?

That's where experience comes in. Find your methodology after some experimentation and tastings.

Good luck! Cheers!

 

[two_hearted]

I've never done a turbid mash, but I have made award winning sours with 100% extract. I would have to second what Coff said and say that doing a turbid mash, if it is important, is pretty low on the "importance scale", especially considering other easier methods for getting starch into the wort.

Thanks for the info. Can you elaborate on the other methods? I really love sour beer and have dived in head first over the last few years, but never brewed one.

 

[two_hearted]

Also, another point is timing of when the bugs are added. If they are added early, I would say a turbid mash would probably be less necessary since there is more sugar that they will be able to eat. The later you pitch the bugs, the more advanced starch reserves you need to feed your bugs.

Mind you, there are varieties of lacto bugs (pedio/lactobacillus) that produce the enzymes to convert starches to sugars, as do most brettanomyces strains to various degrees.

So, all said and done, it comes down to:
1. When do you want to pitch the bugs?
2. How sour do you want it?
3. What end flavors are you going for?

That's where experience comes in. Find your methodology after some experimentation and tastings.

Good luck! Cheers!

Thanks for the info! Here is what I've got.

1. Not sure. I understand the process is sped up if you ferment with a clean yeast and then add bugs? I am not so much worried about time as I am quality...
2. I love sour, I love spicy, I love hoppy. But them again I have a very muted sense of smell so I expect that my threshold of such things is higher than most. So for me, I like it sour.
3. I like a prominent lacto sour flavor, especially in a fruit sour or kriek with some tart fruit flavors. I also love a good oud bruin or sour brown with sour and maltiness. I also love a good fruit sour with some slight funkiness or horsiness.

 

[dantheman13]

Thanks for the info. Can you elaborate on the other methods? I really love sour beer and have dived in head first over the last few years, but never brewed one.

Check out this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/adjuncts-starches-sour-beer-448529/

 

[metic]

Also, Oldsock/Michael Tonsmeire has an article in this month's Zymurgy about this topic...

 

[Oldsock]

Also, Oldsock/Michael Tonsmeire has an article in this month's Zymurgy about this topic...

I've had good luck with turbid mashes, but they are far from required. The big issue with sour beers is that even the same wort pitched with the same microbes can result in wildly different beers. Makes experiments and comparisons difficult. I'm a big advocate of diversification of process/microbes/fermentors and blending.

 

[dantheman13]

I've had good luck with turbid mashes, but they are far from required. The big issue with sour beers is that even the same wort pitched with the same microbes can result in wildly different beers. Makes experiments and comparisons difficult. I'm a big advocate of diversification of process/microbes/fermentors and blending.

Great article, by the way, Mike. I really like how you laid out the logic of decision making for the variables you talked about in the article. It is a good summary of a lot of scattered information! Can't wait for your book!

 

[Oldsock]

Great article, by the way, Mike. I really like how you laid out the logic of decision making for the variables you talked about in the article. It is a good summary of a lot of scattered information! Can't wait for your book!

Cheers! Hopefully the book does something similar for the whole process (my goal). I'm presenting an expanded version of the same topic at NHC in Grand Rapids as well.

 

[weirdboy]

I thought I would chime in with a personal experience related to this. I was really sleepy one morning when I doughed in on a mild intended to mash at 158, and turned on the burner and recirculation to bump the temperature up a bit from 154. Before I knew, it my mash was already over 180 by the time I realized what I had done. I ended up with a very starchy wort just due to the lack of conversion.

Rather than dump it, I boiled it, racked it to a carboy, and dumped the dregs from a commercial sour beer in it. First week or two saw the signs of a typical saccharomyces fermentation. Then nothing for a month or two (or three?) and then I ended up with a nice pellicle formation.

It is now about a year and change later, and I have a delicious sour brown. Very lactic character to it, which is good because I'm not a big fan of acetic beers. So, while it was most certainly not a classic turbid mash, it ended up giving me exactly the fermentation character I was hoping for in a sour.

 

[two_hearted]

Also, Oldsock/Michael Tonsmeire has an article in this month's Zymurgy about this topic...

I've had good luck with turbid mashes, but they are far from required. The big issue with sour beers is that even the same wort pitched with the same microbes can result in wildly different beers. Makes experiments and comparisons difficult. I'm a big advocate of diversification of process/microbes/fermentors and blending.

Cheers! Hopefully the book does something similar for the whole process (my goal). I'm presenting an expanded version of the same topic at NHC in Grand Rapids as well.

Agreed, great article. I found it extremely helpful. I can't wait to check out the book! Anyone know when it drops?

 

[Oldsock]

Agreed, great article. I found it extremely helpful. I can't wait to check out the book! Anyone know when it drops?

The current goal is to have copies at NHC. Not sure how long before/after that Amazon et al. will get their hands on it.

 

[ChugachBrewing]

I turbid mash and have had great results. I've brewed without turbid mashing and also had great results.

Personally, I like the turbid mash because it seems to produce great beers and leaves plenty of food for 'everyone' to chew on. I also get some warm fuzzy feeling from thinking that I am brewing using methods similar to the way previous lambic brewers did (when they were taxed on their mash tun, rather than their finished product).

That being said, it is quite a process... however once you've done it is is less daunting the following times.