Trying to understand all grain batch sparging

[doug293cz]

And equal runoffs just don't make that much difference in reality.

Yes, that's something we should always keep in mind. We don't need to obsess about trying to get the run offs exactly equal. Here's the relevant chart from Kai's sparge simulation work (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparging_Analysis):



The difference between having two 3.5 gal run offs and one 2.8 gal and one 4.2 gal run off is only about half a percentage point in lauter efficiency.

Note: Kai's chart above is a little pessimistic on actual efficiencies since he assumes a grain absorption of 0.19 gal/lb. Actual lauter efficiencies get significantly better with lower (and more typical) grain absorptions.

Brew on

 

[Denny]

I've seen a few who use Beersmith have wonky volumes- like sparge with .6 gallons in one round and then 3.2 gallons in the next. Well, you can't even stir a mash with only .6 gallons of water in it! If the total sparge volume fits in the MLT and it stirs up easily (stir it like it owes you money!) then one batch sparge is fine.

As great as Beersmith is, it's not instructions about how to brew. It's a tool you use to brew the way you want to.

 

[Yooper]

As great as Beersmith is, it's not instructions about how to brew. It's a tool you use to brew the way you want to.

Yes, that was my point. So many newer brewers say, "Well, Beersmith told me to......."

I really love using Beersmith but it's only as good as the data I put into it. The standard profiles for equipment definitely need to be tweaked for each brewer.

By the way, thanks for weighing in Denny! It's always a pleasure to "see" you.

 

[Denny]

Your comparison is flawed... in the first example you are mashing at 1.63 qrts/lb. In the second it is 1.3 qrts/lb. It's not apples to apples.


Actually it is the opposite. I believe that a thicker mash means more enzymes are in contact with the grain, which leads to a more complete conversion.
Bruakaiser confirms this in a chart:
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency

Not on real life. My efficiency went up 5% due to raising my mash ratio from 1.25 to 1.75.

 

[Denny]

One thing not yet discussed here is the rate at which you should drain your mashtun. John Palmer's online edition of How To Brew says you should shoot for a flow rate of 1qt per minute. If you're putting 7 gallons in the pot, that means nearly 30 minutes of your brew day is spent just draining the mashtun. I've been wondering, do people really adhere to this rate in practice?

John is talking fly sparging, since he doesn't batch sparge. In batch sparging you can run off as quickly as your lauter system will allow.

 

[acidrain]

I no longer recommend that method.

First I've heard of that. I've been quoting your site for some time, and now I'm scratching my head.

Am I off base in thinking that mashing at a "normal" grain to water ratio of around 1.25 to 1.33 qrts per lb., and then "topping up" for the first running (as anOLDUR so eloquently put it), will yield both optimum conversion and equal runnings?

 

[Denny]

Mashing modern grains is done very quickly. Many of us have been doing 15-20 min mashes with very little change in fermentability. If a 60 min mash doesn't thin out your beer, taking a few mins to get to a boil certainly wont hurt.

The idea of homebrewers doing a short mash comes from a misunderstanding of the commercial brewing process. Sure, many commercial breweries only do a 15-20 min. rest. but it takes them maybe an hour to mash in, and over an hour to sparge. All the time they're at mash conversion temps, so their actual time in the conversion range is much longer.

 

[judsonp]

Unfortunately, BeerSmith doesn't currently support making it easy to create a recipe that does sparging in what I think is the easiest way.

There are a bunch of options:

1. The BeerSmith default, which is to mash with a particular water-to-grain ratio, top up with some sparge water, drain the mash tun, and then add water to do a full second sparge. This lets you both mash at a particular water-to-grain ratio and get even runoffs, but I think is unnecessarily complicated. As mentioned, this is the default behavior in the BeerSmith "batch sparge" mash profiles.

2. Just mash with whatever water-to-grain ratio you want, drain the mash tun without adding any water, and then add all of the remaining water to the sparge. This is convenient, but you can end up with very different runoff volumes, depending on your grain bill. If you're really worrying about every efficiency point, maybe that matters to you, but data suggests that it's not a big deal. This isn't the default in BeerSmith, but it's well-supported: in your mash profile, check the box to drain mash tun before sparge and uncheck the box to insist on equal runoff volumes.

3. Like #2, use the simple "mash, drain, sparge once" approach, but instead of using a standard water-to-grain ratio, pick your mash water amount so that you end with equal runoffs. I think this is what Denny suggested above. I like it because it's dead simple. This could be implemented in BeerSmith with a simple checkbox, but currently it isn't (as far as I know).

The complicated way to create #3 is BeerSmith is this:
* Use a standard batch sparge, no mash out profile.
* On the mash page, the sparge instructions will be something like "add 0.62 gal of water, drain mash tun, add 3.75 gal of water, drain mash tun". (I'm paraphrasing because I don't have a copy of the software in front of me right now.)
* Edit the mash profile and increase the amount of mash water to include the first sparge. In the example I gave, that's 0.62 gal.
* Now the instructions should either have that first sparge volume be pretty small or gone entirely.
* Go back to the mash profile. Turn off the checkbox to make runoff volumes equal and turn on the checkbox to drain mash tun before sparging.

Honestly, that's kind of a pain. Once you've done it once, though, you should have a good idea of how much water that is on your system. In the future, you can just eyeball it. You won't get exactly equal runoffs, but they'll be roughly equal, and that's all you're looking for. On my system, for example, I know that I'll use 5 to 5.5 gal of mash water (I have a lot of dead space) and I expect to see about 3.5 gal for the sparge. So I'll just jump right to plugging in 5 gal for the mash volume and check to make sure the sparge volume is in the right ballpark.

Note: You need to be careful with BeerSmith batch sparge volumes if your mash profile is set to make equal runoff volumes. If the runoff from the mash is larger than half the pre-boil volume, by default it will increase the batch sparge volume so that the two runoff volumes are equal. This will result in you getting more wort than your pre-boil volume, which is a problem! Like Yooper said, don't just trust what your software says! An easy way to fix this is to not use mash profiles that insist on equal runoff volumes.

 

[pudland]

Yes, that was my point. So many newer brewers say, "Well, Beersmith told me to......."

I really love using Beersmith but it's only as good as the data I put into it. The standard profiles for equipment definitely need to be tweaked for each brewer.

By the way, thanks for weighing in Denny! It's always a pleasure to "see" you.

I agree... thats why I just found and read these today..
http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php/topic,5140.45.html

Read reply 1,2 & 3... and associated files.

They both say the profiles are a "starting point" for new brewers.... Read, read again, and take notes.

Use the info from that thread... combine the info from this thread and after a few brews, with detailed notes, give beersmith the right data to help give you the right(or close to) outcome.

My extract brews were even far off from BS2... because I used default settings without telling it WHAT I ACTUALLY HAVE, equipment wise.

 

[pudland]

This will result in you getting more wort than your pre-boil volume, which is a problem! Like Yooper said, don't just trust what your software says! An easy way to fix this is to not use mash profiles that insist on equal runoff volumes.

I thought i read in here that after anything after the first drain may be unnecessary(if you can mash in up to 1/2 your boil vol, counting in absorbtion). So you could measure first runnings and add sparge vol to make up the difference... or did I misread?

 

[AnOldUR]

Am I off base in thinking that mashing at a "normal" grain to water ratio of around 1.25 to 1.33 qrts per lb., and then "topping up" for the first running (as anOLDUR so eloquently put it), will yield both optimum conversion and equal runnings?

My eloquence was referring to pH not conversion efficiency. :cross:

Think of it as simply topping off the mash. It allows you to use a mash thickness that won't let pH get out of hand, but still do no-sparge or to balance out your volume so that you get equal runnings if you are batch sparging. The top off addition is not technically sparging since no wort has left the tun before this point.

 

[pudland]

So with all the information provided... where has this left the OP?
Still confused?
Playing catch up can be tough..
Is it even possible to take this thread and give him something he can conceive as a starting point in one post for a first time AG brewer?

 

[acidrain]

My eloquence was referring to pH not conversion efficiency. :cross:

True, but that is the first time I've heard it put that way, and not many people understand what I'm even talking about when describing that theory, so I will steal your terminology (probably wrongly) and use it loosely all over the internet.

So with all the information provided... where has this left the OP?
Still confused?
Playing catch up can be tough..
Is it even possible to take this thread and give him something he can conceive as a starting point in one post for a first time AG brewer?

Deep subject for sure.

 

[thespiff]

John is talking fly sparging, since he doesn't batch sparge. In batch sparging you can run off as quickly as your lauter system will allow.

So I thought I misread, but I went back and looked again, and he really doesn't specify fly or batch sparge:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter17.html

The wort should be drained slowly to obtain the best extraction. Sparge time varies depending on the amount of grain and the lautering system, .5 - 2.5 hours. Sparging means "to sprinkle" and this explains why you may have seen or heard discussion of "sparge arms" or sprinklers over the grain bed for lautering. There is no reason to fool with such things. There are three main methods of sparging: English, batch and continuous.

Later on he is more explicit and recommends 1qt per minute in the lautering section (http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter17-2.html) but there's no indication that this section is specifically for a fly sparge process.

Anyway I'm pretty psyched to hear that sparging quickly is the way to go, as it will remove at least 20 minutes from my brew day

 

[wilserbrewer]

Yea....that was written in the Stone Age before Denny invented batch sparging

 

[thespiff]

Yea....that was written in the Stone Age before Denny invented batch sparging

Haha I just realized that Denny is Denny Conn. And here I was wondering whether to trust the advice of the random set of internet forum commenters who responded to my question.

 

[ba-brewer]

So with all the information provided... where has this left the OP?
Still confused?
Playing catch up can be tough..
Is it even possible to take this thread and give him something he can conceive as a starting point in one post for a first time AG brewer?

I was wondering the same thing.

@OP, once you get all of this figure out, have at it and take a bunch of note. Then repeat the process a few time as quick as you can and in no time you will be wondering what the big deal is all about.

 

[masonsjax]

The idea of homebrewers doing a short mash comes from a misunderstanding of the commercial brewing process. Sure, many commercial breweries only do a 15-20 min. rest. but it takes them maybe an hour to mash in, and over an hour to sparge. All the time they're at mash conversion temps, so their actual time in the conversion range is much longer.

Hey Denny, I'm all ears when you have something to say. I know you and I have discussed this point a bit in the past already, but I still have to respectfully disagree. I'm not in the habit of performing very scientific experiments or recording data of any kind. I generally take a more artistic approach, but I have been mashing for 15-25 mins rather than my typical 60 mins for the last 50 or so batches with almost zero discernable difference in the finished beer (single infusion / batch sparge). Perhaps I'll start logging my numbers to publish something at some point, but I would recommend everyone at least try it once and see if they think the extra point or two is worth another 30-45 mins of waiting around. It's certainly not worth it to me.

 

[mcfire12]

So... with the plethora of info... how have you decided to proceed?

Well I think I can read my brains out but I won't be able to find my preferred method until I try several different ways. But I guess for my first AG brew i'm pretty much going to do what BS2 tells me to do, well pretty much. my recipe has 8.28 pounds of grain in it. Going to mash in with 2.6 gallons of water at 163* water hoping that drops everything to 152 when I add my grain.

To sparge, beer smith tell me to do it with 2 steps, first with 1.92 gallon, second with 3.51 gallon using 168* water from my HLT. I think i'm just going to add the first 1.92 gallon to the initial mash, vorlauf, drain, and put to heat right away in my bk. And for the second i'll dump in my 3.51, stir, let sit a few mins, vorlauf, then drain. And I think that's pretty much it.

Is this sounding about right?

 

[mcfire12]

The "Dennybrew Method" is based on maximizing efficiency based on two assumptions:

1. That a strike water to grain ratio near 1.25 qt/lb will maximize conversion efficiency, and
2. That equal run off volumes will maximize lauter efficiency when batch sparging.

So, you mash at the chosen strike water to grain ratio (to maximize conversion efficiency), and then before initial run off you add enough additional water so that you will get equal run off with your sparge(s).

The problem is that the first assumption has been proven wrong by Kai Troester (http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency). Quoting Kai:

"In the limit of attenuation experiments it was shown that a 5 l/kg (2.4 qt/lb) mash showed much better conversion efficiency than a 2.5 l/kg (1.2 qt/lb) mash. This is also supported by anecdotal experience from home brewers who found that thin mashes generally lead to better overall efficiency.

While thick mashes help to stabilize the enzymes which makes them active for a longer time, they also inhibit their activity (substrate inhibition) and make it more difficult for the starch to gelatenize. As a result in thinner mashes the conversion processes occur faster. "​

So, since thinner mashes do not decrease conversion efficiency (if anything they improve it), there is no benefit to limiting the strike water to grain ratio to low values. You will be better off mashing in with all of the water needed to achieve the initial run off volume. You do need to make sure your water adjustments are based on the larger strike volume to insure correct mash pH.

The second assumption upon which the "Dennybrew Method" is based is valid. It is based on well established rinse dilution mathematics.

Note: The incorrect assumption that thicker mashes provide faster conversion than thinner mashes is based on a simplistic and flawed analysis that considers enzyme concentration as the only parameter important in controlling saccharification rate (at a particular temperature.) As Kai points out a higher concentration of starches and dextrines works to inhibit the action of the enzymes, and is actually a more important factor than the enzyme concentration.

Brew on

So... what you're saying is in my recipe in the above post I just made, that I should add my 1.92 gallon on top of my initial 2.6 gallon of mash water. So for my mash I should be at 4.5 gallon, let it sit 60 mins. And sparge once with my 3.5 gallon of water? I planned on just measuring whatever I get out of the mash tun for my first running, then adding whatever I actually need to achieve my pre boil volume in beer smith which is 6.73 gallons.

Is this about right? Wow, this all grain thing can get pretty confusing!

 

[pudland]

But I guess for my first AG brew i'm pretty much going to do what BS2 tells me to do, well pretty much.

Just a reminder, as many have stated earlier, BS2 equipment profiles should be set up to match your equipment as close as possible.

Seriously check out this link. It doesn't take long to read and follow the instructions for getting your equipment profile closer to your set up.

http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index...c,5140.45.html

I'll be taking the suggested test measurements and logging them. After 5 or so brews I'll average and update my equipment profile to match.

I went through it, put in my equipment numbers and it did change the recipe potential outcome by quite a bit...

Going to mash in with 2.6 gallons of water at 163* water hoping that drops everything to 152 when I add my grain.

Don't be alarmed if it drops to 148-150, thats OK.

I think i'm just going to add the first 1.92 gallon to the initial mash, vorlauf, drain, and put to heat right away in my bk. And for the second i'll dump in my 3.51, stir, let sit a few mins, vorlauf, then drain.

That's how I plan on doing it this weekend...


Happy brewing! Keep us posted please!!

 

[pudland]

that I should add my 1.92 gallon on top of my initial 2.6 gallon of mash water. So for my mash I should be at 4.5 gallon, let it sit 60 mins. And sparge once with my 3.5 gallon of water? I planned on just measuring whatever I get out of the mash tun for my first running, then adding whatever I actually need to achieve my pre boil volume in beer smith which is 6.73 gallons.

BS2 tells me this for mine:
5 gal MT
For 5.25 lb grain...
Mash in 7.56 qt
sparge with 1.17 gal
sparge with 2.43 gal
sparge with 2.43 gal

What I'm doing:
Mash in 2.5 gal
Stir good, 60 wait
Vorlauf, drain, measure vol, check gravity, iodine test
sparge with 2.5 gal
Stir good
Vorlauf, drain, measure vol, check gravity, iodine test
sparge with 2.5 gal OR whatever makes my pre-boil volume
Stir good
Vorlauf, drain, measure vol, check gravity, iodine test

I'm doing it this way for my knowledge with my equipment.
Gravity falling to 1.010 or less and no reaction on the iodine test should tell me when I have pulled all the sugars out of the mash.
If by the second sparge, the sugars are out, I might as well fit as much sparge water into the first sparge and call it good for the next batch and just top off the boiler.

 

[joshesmusica]

Ok here's a random scenario that you fine folks could help me decide about:
My mash tun is 30L, but I use a bag in it.
My bk is only 19L.
So I've been using lots of grains in order to extract a lot and top up.
The first time I followed bs2 instructions (yeah I got it, don't do that), and my mash was very thick, then I tried a fly sparge, but went way too fast. Got horrible efficiency.
Next batch I decided to go with the full volume of water that I wanted for the boil. (Stupid thing happened: I walked away while it was sparging and apparently my hose was not secure. Came back to wort all over the counter. Prolly lost 2 liters...). So then I got the idea that since I was topping up, that I should just top up with wort. So I did basically a batch sparge to get that. I ended up having to still top up with two liters of water (gee I wonder where that went to?), but ended up with an estimated OG 1 point higher than expected. Which I'm guessing would've been higher if I hadn't lost 2 liters of 1.070 wort.
What do you guys think about this method?
And before you suggest buying a bigger bk, don't. I can't.

 

[AnOldUR]

BS2 tells me this for mine:
5 gal MT
For 5.25 lb grain...
Mash in 7.56 qt
sparge with 1.17 gal
sparge with 2.43 gal
sparge with 2.43 gal

Here's what I'd do:

Dough-in with 2.5 gal (1.9 qt/lb)
After 60 min mash top off w/ 1.5 gal of 180° water (3 qt/lb)
Stir, vorlauf and lauter
After grain absorbsion you'd get about 3.25 gal to your kettle
Batch sparge with 3.25 gal for 6.5 final kettle volume
After boil-off you'll have 5.25-5.5 to your fermenter

 

[pudland]

180° water

Why the high temp? I planned on sparging with 155-160*. With a desired mash temp of 148*, wouldn't 180* stop the conversion?

 

[AnOldUR]

Why the high temp? . . . wouldn't 180* stop the conversion?

Conversion should be complete after the 60 minutes mash. The 180° top off and sparge water will bring the grain bed to 160° to 170°. That higher temperature will get you to a boil faster and may make lautering a little easier.


edit to say:
The repeated iodine tests and gravity checks that you planned are not necessary. Only check for remaining sugars before the first lauter (and before topping off the mash), if you're not satisfied you should mash longer. With a single sparge, too low of a gravity will not be a problem. You can do a pre-boil gravity check after everything is in your kettle.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Why oh why are we still suggesting 3 additions to the MT....the addition post mash specifically. Denny said he no longer advocates it.....

Strike with 4, sparge with 3.25 or whatever you need to reach pre boil volume.

I think it should be mandatory that everyone brews a couple batches before they are allowed to look at Beersmith.

Start simple, then build...not the other way around.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I no longer recommend that method. Increase the amount of mash water so you get approximately 1/2 your total boil volume from the mash. Get the rest of your boil volume from the sparge.

Zzzzzzz

Could somebody please call Beersmith and ask them to remove this hoopty topping off the mash step, and calling it a sparge from their program....it's causing a lot of heartburn around here, and in Denny's case lower efficiency.

 

[JustLooking]

Zzzzzzz.

Serious question. So you and Denny are saying that mash thickness doesn't effect pH or that we shouldn't be conserned with that. What I've read is that over about 2 qts/lb you have the potential to be out of the safe pH range, but that could very well be part of the outdated information also.

 

[pudland]

Serious question. So you and Denny are saying that mash thickness doesn't effect pH or that we shouldn't be conserned with that. What I've read is that over about 2 qts/lb you have the potential to be out of the safe pH range, but that could very well be part of the outdated information also.

Since I'm doing a pilsner and soft water is recommended, 1/2 distilled & half tap water was recommended. Good question...