Trying to understand all grain batch sparging

[mcfire12]

hi guys, just finished up making my mash tun and hlt, getting ready to do my first all grain brew. I'm confused about some of it. I do have beersmith and friends who do all grain, but they fly sparge with a pretty complicated system. So from what I gather...
I'll mash in with whatever amount and temp beersmith provides me after pre heating the mash tun. This part seems easy enough. Now where I'm confused is on batch sparging.

At the end of 60 min mash, I should add the first small amount of Sparge water, then stir, Let sit 10 mins, vorlauf, Drain completely.

Then add second larger addition of sparge water, stir, let sit 10 mins, vorlauf, then drain. Is this all correct? Seems like I wouldn't be rinsing all the sugars off with all the stirring.

I'm also confused on why I need hotter sparge water.

 

[Bobby_M]

Select the "no mash out" profile for simplicity. After the mash, vorlauf and drain. Add the sparge water, stir really really really well, vorlauf and drain. Done. Don't worry about letting it sit for 10 minutes.

 

[stevehaun]

It is really quite simple.
1. Mash for 60 min with desired water to grain ratio - usually somewhere between 1 and 2 quarts per pound of grain
2. Vorlauf until clear
3. Drain mash tun completely.
4. Measure volume of first runnings
5. Sparge volume = Desired preboil volume - volume of first runnings
6. Add sparge water and stir
7. Vorlauf until clear
8. Drain mash tun completely
9. Boil

Have fun!

 

[Gavin C]

The heat is used to perform a mash out. Stopping the enzymatic activity locking in your desired sugar profile. The mash out is more applicable to a flysparge.

Mash, vorlauf to set the grain bed and drain first runnings to your kettle. Drain as fast as you can without getting grains through your manifold. Draining fast is not required but is a benefit of batch sparging or no sparge brewing.

After you drain the first runnings measure how much is in the boil kettle.

(Your planned preboil volume - the volume from the first runnings) = the volume you need to sparge with.

Add this batch sparge volume to the mash tun and stir the feck out of it. Really stir like crazy. This rinses the grains thoroughly getting as much of the entrapped sweet-wort to diffuse out of the sticky sweet grains. Your washing the sugar off the grain, with the sparge water.

After adding the batch sparge vorlauf as before till the wort is running clear, and drain in the same manner as before to hit your planned prevail volume. Again drain fast as you can without upsetting the grain bed. A benefit not a requirement of batch sparging.

No sparging method extracts all the sugars. That is a theoretical impossibility. Even if you rinsed the grains with all the water in lake Meade there would still be infinitesimally small amounts of sugars remaining in the grains.

Batch sparking can be equally effective by sparging with hot water ~170F or cooler water. Avoiding exposing the grains to temperatures in excess of 170F can eliminate the risk of extracting astringent tannins if the pH were to exceed 6.0

Hope that helps some

 

[govner1]

Select the "no mash out" profile for simplicity. After the mash, vorlauf and drain. Add the sparge water, stir really really really well, vorlauf and drain. Done. Don't worry about letting it sit for 10 minutes.

^^^this- but I do wait the ten minutes to let the grain bed settle a little. Also, once you've started draining your first running a and have accumulated an inch or so of wort add some low heat. Once you begin draining your sparge water you can turn up the heat. If all goes well you'll be close to boiling by the time you tun is empty.

 

[kh54s10]

Select the "no mash out" profile for simplicity. After the mash, vorlauf and drain. Add the sparge water, stir really really really well, vorlauf and drain. Done. Don't worry about letting it sit for 10 minutes.

I do basically this but I vorlauf, measure my volume, figure out what I need for preboil. Sparge with a little over 1/2 of what I need for preboil. Measure again and add the rest. This leaves me with the right volume and little left over in the tun. I get very close to my predicted #'s.

 

[olotti]

Same here. But I just through trial and error know how much I'll lose from mash in water which is around 2 gal so then I'll just figure I'll split my sparge into the amounts I need to get my pre boil volume. So for instance I mash in at 1.5qts/lb and get 3 gal of first running, my goal is 7.5 gal pre boil volume so then my first sparge will be 3 gal and my second sparge will be 2 gal or I'll do 2.5 gal and 2.5 gal whatever that'll give me 7.5 gal with just a little left in the mlt. I like to go over on my volume just in case I get more grain absorption that way I know I'll get my 7.5 gal for my pre boil volume. Your pre boil volume though will differ based on your boil off rate so if your new with your system it'll take a couple batches to figure out how much you'll boil off over a 60 min boil plus losing volume to cooling shrinkage which does happen and grub loss if you don't want any cold/hot break and hops in your primary, but that's a different convo all together.

 

[acidrain]

At the end of 60 min mash, I should add the first small amount of Sparge water, then stir, Let sit 10 mins, vorlauf, Drain completely.

Then add second larger addition of sparge water, stir, let sit 10 mins, vorlauf, then drain. Is this all correct? Seems like I wouldn't be rinsing all the sugars off with all the stirring.

I'm also confused on why I need hotter sparge water.

I do this exactly. It is how Denny does it, and it works.


Taken from Dennybrew:
Let’s see how this works in a brewing session. Assume a recipe with 10 lb. of grain, and that you need to collect 7 gal. of pre boil wort. A mash ration of 1.25 qt./lb. would require 12.5 qt. or 3.125 gal. of strike water. Based on an absorption of .1 gal./lb., the mash would absorb 1 gal. of water so we’d get 2.125 gal. of water from the mash. Since we want to collect 3.5 gal. (or 50% of the boil volume), after the mash is complete we’d add 1.375 gal. (5.5 qt.) of water to mash tun before the first runoff. Stir the additional water in, let it sit for a few minutes, then vorlauf until clear and start your runoff. After the runoff, we add 3.5 gal. of batch sparge water. Stir it in well, then vorlauf and runoff as before. These two runoffs will give us our pre boil volume of 7 gal. of sweet wort.

 

[mcfire12]

Also, what is the reasoning for wanting both "runnings" of the batch sparge to be the same amount of water? Not sure I understand that either.

 

[catdaddy66]

It is really quite simple.
1. Mash for 60 min with desired water to grain ratio - usually somewhere between 1 and 2 quarts per pound of grain
2. Vorlauf until clear
3. Drain mash tun completely.
4. Measure volume of first runnings
5. Sparge volume = Desired preboil volume - volume of first runnings
6. Add sparge water and stir
7. Vorlauf until clear
8. Drain mash tun completely
9. Boil

Have fun!

This has served me well since I went to all grain brewing.

 

[doug293cz]

Also, what is the reasoning for wanting both "runnings" of the batch sparge to be the same amount of water? Not sure I understand that either.

It can be mathematically proven that you get maximum lautering efficiency if each sparge run off is equal volume (ref: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparging_Analysis.) In order to get equal run offs, divide your target pre-boil volume by the number of run offs you will conduct (1 + the number of sparge steps.) Then add your predicted grain absorption to this number to get your strike water volume. Predicted grain absorption is your total grain weight times the absorption rate for your system (typically 0.11 to 0.125 gal/lb for traditional MLT's.)

Forget about traditional mash water to grain ratios. Those are only appropriate for fly (continuous) sparging. Thinner mashes will help with your efficiency.

Brew on

 

[mattdee1]

It is really quite simple.
1. Mash for 60 min with desired water to grain ratio - usually somewhere between 1 and 2 quarts per pound of grain
2. Vorlauf until clear
3. Drain mash tun completely.
4. Measure volume of first runnings
5. Sparge volume = Desired preboil volume - volume of first runnings
6. Add sparge water and stir
7. Vorlauf until clear
8. Drain mash tun completely
9. Boil

Have fun!

I've done only 3 brews so far, all using this general approach--followed by temperature controlled fermentation-- and I've been ridiculously pleased with the results. Even more surprising is how voraciously BMC-o-phile friends and family have been chugging my beers. Getting into this, I was quietly hoping to win their enthusiasm but now it's getting expensive.

Maybe a subject for another thread, but it makes me wonder why people bother with the big "sculpture" things. Originally I wanted to build something like that, but after seeing how easy it is to do 5ish gallon batches with plastic buckets and batch sparging, it seems to me that the sculpture would be a waste of time (and garage space). What am I missing here?

 

[mcfire12]

Seems that you guys are only sparging once? I've read that there are benefits to adding half the sparge water, stirring, and draining, then repeating with the last portion of sparge water. Or is this just wasting time?

 

[BrotherBock]

This has served me well since I went to all grain brewing.

Serves me well too. Always get consistent efficiency. Can't break it down much simpler than that.

If you know how much water your grain will absorb (generally between .12 and .15 gal/lb) and/or your mash tun deadspace you can get a general idea of how much sparge you'll need and can heat that up while draining the mash tun or earlier.

 

[blizz81]

Seems that you guys are only sparging once? I've read that there are benefits to adding half the sparge water, stirring, and draining, then repeating with the last portion of sparge water. Or is this just wasting time?

Hell, on most of my beers (I tend to brew bigger beers), it's hard to even batch sparge once. I try to keep the sparge volume around the same size as my first runnings volume, but as beers get bigger, you'll eventually find you'll run into one of two choices with batch sparging:

1) maintain normal efficiency: still use around the same volume as your first runnings for batch sparging and start with a high preboil volume, and boil longer to get down to desired post-boil volume

2) take an efficiency hit: still only use enough volume in the batch sparge to reach your normal intended preboil volume



If you typically brew in the 4-6% abv range, you might have some batches where your sparge volume will be greater than your first runnings. I think here the efficiency difference between splitting the batch sparges into equal runnings vs. one lump volume (provided your mash tun can handle the volume) is probably fairly negligible and not worth the work of extra measuring, extra infusion, and extra vorlauf / drain. Your mileage may vary, of course.

 

[Yooper]

Seems that you guys are only sparging once? I've read that there are benefits to adding half the sparge water, stirring, and draining, then repeating with the last portion of sparge water. Or is this just wasting time?

It's just wasting time.

There are a few who say that get about a 2% greater efficiency, but that really isn't something that's been proven.

There are reasons to do two rounds- like if all of the sparge water won't fit in the MLT- but no real advantage.

I've seen a few who use Beersmith have wonky volumes- like sparge with .6 gallons in one round and then 3.2 gallons in the next. Well, you can't even stir a mash with only .6 gallons of water in it! If the total sparge volume fits in the MLT and it stirs up easily (stir it like it owes you money!) then one batch sparge is fine.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Also, what is the reasoning for wanting both "runnings" of the batch sparge to be the same amount of water? Not sure I understand that either.

It can be mathematically proven that you get maximum lautering efficiency if each sparge run off is equal volume (ref: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparging_Analysis.)
Brew on

This is fact that a 50 / 50 ratio will yield the best efficiency. But worth mentioning in practice, if you are reasonably close to 50 / 50, your efficiency will not suffer much at all.

It can be very easy and convenient to just "ball park" your strike water amount, measure first runnings, then sparge to reach preboil volume, and if you land at 60 / 40, well that also works....RDWHAHB cheers!

The real point of my post is to stress while calculators can be very helpful, IMO it is equally if not more important to pay attention to the actual process, and to understand the desired end result. Put bluntly, get your head out of Beersmith and over the kettle measuring actual volumes, rather than blindly relying on the software forecast.

 

[Yooper]

Maybe a subject for another thread, but it makes me wonder why people bother with the big "sculpture" things. Originally I wanted to build something like that, but after seeing how easy it is to do 5ish gallon batches with plastic buckets and batch sparging, it seems to me that the sculpture would be a waste of time (and garage space). What am I missing here?

Well, the big "sculpture" isn't necessary- but it makes it much easier! I have pumps to move water and wort, so I don't have to lift. I'm a 51 year old, 135 pound weakling, and I brew 10-11 gallon sized batches. I can't even lift 11 gallons of water- and I start with 15 gallons or so every brewday.

Even with doing a 5 gallon batch, using a pump to move the mash water and sparge water saves labor for me. It's also safer, since I'm not longer pouring pots of water water by hand. It also makes chilling a breeze, since I just hook up a few hoses to the chiller. I don't carry ice around, or a hot pot. It just chills in place with no labor from me at all. Then I use a pump to move the cooled wort to the fermenter- again, no lifting.

It's not for everybody- you can definitely make great beer with a pot and a bucket. But it is much easier for me.

 

[Komodo]

I heat my total water volume in the brew kettle, then add to the mash tun(s). After mash, I drain those in collection buckets which allows me to (1) measure the strength of each "running" (2) decide if 2 batches sparges are fine or if I want to do a third (3) keep the strike water separate and heat it during mash so its essentially at mash out temps, and have control in case I mess up numbers and need to add more or not use as much.

When I have collected my total volume of wort (usually two batch sparges), I can dump any excess strike / sparge water and add the collected worts to the kettle.

I used to do two sparges, collect in buckets, and then do a dunk sparge with the mash (in paint strainer bags) inside the kettle with the remaining water. Often that dunk water would be ~1.020. On my last batch, I had too much grain for one cooler, but it was only 1/2 capacity for two coolers. I did two batch sparges where I added mashout water just before I drained it making the qt/lb ratio very soupy. My efficiency went from my typical 80% up to 87%. I didn't do a dunk sparge this time and felt like I had really good control.

If this is confusing, please ask for clarification. I found it really easy, and forgiving. Sometimes I find the trickiest part is estimating your initial total water volume.

 

[doug293cz]

Seems that you guys are only sparging once? I've read that there are benefits to adding half the sparge water, stirring, and draining, then repeating with the last portion of sparge water. Or is this just wasting time?

Yes, a double sparge is slightly more effective than a single sparge. I ran a sparge simulation for a 13 lb grain bill, using typical mash tun losses, and equal run off volumes, to yield 7.25 gal pre-boil. The results are:

Single Sparge = 83.0% Lauter Efficiency
Double Sparge = 86.5% Lauter Efficiency

So, the difference is 3.5% in lauter efficiency. Mash efficiency will depend on conversion efficiency, since mash efficiency = conversion efficiency * lauter efficiency. Whether or not a 3 - 4 % increase in efficiency is worth the extra work is something each brewer will have to decide for themselves.

Below are the spreadsheets that show the details of the simulations.

Single sparge:




Double sparge:



Brew on

 

[acidrain]

I've seen a few who use Beersmith have wonky volumes- like sparge with .6 gallons in one round and then 3.2 gallons in the next. Well, you can't even stir a mash with only .6 gallons of water in it! If the total sparge volume fits in the MLT and it stirs up easily (stir it like it owes you money!) then one batch sparge is fine.

The .6 addition is (according to Denny, and Brad Smith loves Denny) to be added to the end of the mash BEFORE the first running. Then the second addition is mathematically calculated to equal the first running.

 

[acidrain]

Below are the spreadsheets that show the details of the simulations.

Single sparge:


Double sparge:

Your comparison is flawed... in the first example you are mashing at 1.63 qrts/lb. In the second it is 1.3 qrts/lb. It's not apples to apples.

Thinner mashes will help with your efficiency.

Actually it is the opposite. I believe that a thicker mash means more enzymes are in contact with the grain, which leads to a more complete conversion.
Bruakaiser confirms this in a chart:
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency

 

[Yooper]

The .6 addition is (according to Denny, and Brad Smith loves Denny) to be added to the end of the mash BEFORE the first running. Then the second addition is mathematically calculated to equal the first running.

No, that's a "mash out" addition.

You get the weird numbers sometimes (often) even with a "batch sparge, no mash out" setting. That's why it's so important to remember that WE tell Beersmith what to do, not the other way around.

Lots of brewers say, "I added x amount of water because Beersmith told me to". That's not right- we tell our software what is needed using some common sense sometimes. If Beersmith "tells" you to add a super low or super high amount of water, some warning bells should ring.

 

[BrotherBock]

get your head out of Beersmith and over the kettle measuring actual volumes, rather than blindly relying on the software forecast.

+1

I much prefer to just use the calculators to build the recipe and rely on my brain to do the rest (mash/sparge volumes). Relying strictly on the software seems to take something that could be an active process and turning it into formula. When the formula doesn't go right you only have yourself to blame.

I came here to brew not punch in X amounts at Y intervals like a robot and hope my calculator worked out.

 

[acidrain]

No, that's a "mash out" addition.

You get the weird numbers sometimes (often) even with a "batch sparge, no mash out" setting. That's why it's so important to remember that WE tell Beersmith what to do, not the other way around.

Lots of brewers say, "I added x amount of water because Beersmith told me to". That's not right- we tell our software what is needed using some common sense sometimes. If Beersmith "tells" you to add a super low or super high amount of water, some warning bells should ring.

Right, that's why I have checked (for example)
BATCH SPARGE: Yes
USE EQUAL BATCHES: Yes
FILL MASH TUN: 90%
DRAIN TUN BEFORE SPARGE: No

Then the timer tells me:
Mash with 11lb-.6 oz in 13.8 qrts water for my set ratio of 1.25 qrts./lb.
Then the sparge additions are (remember the "drain tun before sparge" is set to no) 7.5 qrts, and 16 qrts.

Beersmith doesn't actually say, but if you mash at the volumes they give, it goes like this:
mash is complete, then add the 7.5 qrts before first running, and stir.
Drain completely and you gather about 16 qrts.
Add the last addition, stir and drain and you with gather (ta da)... 16 qrts.
BTW, this is exactly how Denny describes it in Dennybrew.

 

[blizz81]

+1

I much prefer to just use the calculators to build the recipe and rely on my brain to do the rest (mash/sparge volumes). Relying strictly on the software seems to take something that could be an active process and turning it into formula. When the formula doesn't go right you only have yourself to blame.

I came here to brew not punch in X amounts at Y intervals like a robot and hope my calculator worked out.

I would say you should actually start out hand-calculating your water volumes and only look to any sort of automation once you're dialed in and comfortable, but I suppose different strokes for different folks.

 

[BrotherBock]

I would say you should actually start out hand-calculating your water volumes and only look to any sort of automation once you're dialed in and comfortable, but I suppose different strokes for different folks.

Agreed. I have calculated my losses to grain, deadspace, boil off, etc. I suppose I could punch those numbers into a calculator and be ok. But there always seems to be a slight variance with those things. Regardless, I enjoy the active role that not relying on the software gives me.

 

[doug293cz]

Your comparison is flawed... in the first example you are mashing at 1.63 qrts/lb. In the second it is 1.3 qrts/lb. It's not apples to apples.

You are wrong. My comparison is valid. I simulated the lauter process in order to calculate lauter efficiency. I am not calculating conversion efficiency or rate. The results would have been the same if in the first case I mashed in with 1.3 qts/lb and then added the additional 0.33 qts/lb immediately prior to run off. But, mashing thinner improves the saccharification rate, so can help with conversion efficiency, and therefore mash efficiency.

Actually it is the opposite. I believe that a thicker mash means more enzymes are in contact with the grain, which leads to a more complete conversion.
Bruakaiser confirms this in a chart:
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency

Wrong again. Quoting from Kai, at the link you provided:

"In the limit of attenuation experiments it was shown that a 5 l/kg (2.4 qt/lb) mash showed much better conversion efficiency than a 2.5 l/kg (1.2 qt/lb) mash. This is also supported by anecdotal experience from home brewers who found that thin mashes generally lead to better overall efficiency.

While thick mashes help to stabilize the enzymes which makes them active for a longer time, they also inhibit their activity (substrate inhibition) and make it more difficult for the starch to gelatenize. As a result in thinner mashes the conversion processes occur faster. "​

So, it appears you have reading comprehension problems. Kai confirms what I said, which is thinner mashes help with efficiency, specifically by helping to get faster conversion, which increases the probability of higher conversion efficiency (one of the factors in mash efficiency.)

Brew on

 

[thespiff]

One thing not yet discussed here is the rate at which you should drain your mashtun. John Palmer's online edition of How To Brew says you should shoot for a flow rate of 1qt per minute. If you're putting 7 gallons in the pot, that means nearly 30 minutes of your brew day is spent just draining the mashtun. I've been wondering, do people really adhere to this rate in practice?

 

[masonsjax]

Most batch spargers drain as fast as possible. I can't think of a good reason to throttle it down.