Trying to make a sweet, sparkling cider

[Bevilaquafoto]

Hi, everyone! I am a bit confused here. I have been told that I can either make a sweet, still hard cider by halting fermentation and back-sweetening, or I can make a sparkling dry cider by bottling with priming sugar. I'm told that you cant make a sweet AND sparkling cider. My question is this:
I have a 5 gallon batch in my now. I want a sweet sparkling cider. Why can't I add lactose to my batch (lactose being non-fermentable), then also add dextrose as priming sugar when I bottle? The lactose will sweeten but won't ferment, and the dextrose will give me carbonation. Is my thinking incorrect? Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

No your correct. You can certainly add lactose ti sweeten your cider than add priming sugar and bottle.

 

[jerrodm]

I've tried to solve this question myself, and have found a system that works for me, but am curious what others think. Here's my method:

- Start your cider and allow it to ferment until it has about the level of sweetness you want.
- Once this is reached, cold crash your cider to drop as much suspended material, yeast &c out of suspension as possible. There will still be plenty of yeast left for carbonation.
- Bottle your cider and bring it back up to normal fermentation levels. If you have any small bottles (Fever Tree tonic bottles are what I use), fill five or six of these as test bottles.
- When you bring the temperature back up, the yeast will get back to work consuming sugar. After a couple of days (I start at about two to three days after bottling) open one of your small test bottles to see how much carbonation has developed. Do this once a day or so until you think there's enough carbonation in your bottles.
- Once the carbonation level is where you want it, heat a 2/3 full kettle of water to about 140F, and gently place your bottles in the bath. Leave them in for at least twenty minutes. The hot water bath will kill the yeast, stopping fermentation.

Now you can store your cider at room temp without worrying about the bottles exploding, and they'll stay sweet and fizzy.

A couple of points:

- Be VERY careful when handling your carbonated cider bottles--the last thing you want to do is drop one as you're taking it out of the hot water bath and have it explode, spraying hot cider and fragments of glass all over you.
- Do NOT boil your bottles. First of all, it's unnecessary--yeast don't live in temps much above 120F. Second of all, when you increase the temp of a liquid or gas inside a closed space, you increase the pressure, which could cause a bottle to explode.
- For the same reason as above, keep a lid on your hot water bath, just to be on the safe side. I've never blown up a bottle, but it's never a bad idea to be careful.
- I have not had success in keeping my carbonation in Grolsch-type swing-top bottles using this method—I think the heating forces the CO2 out around the seal, and they end up flat. Cap bottles don’t have this problem.
- Some might worry that killing the yeast this way would cause autolysis and off-flavors. My experience from several batches done this way is that there is not enough yeast left (esp. after cold-crashing) for this to be a noticeable problem. Stability over time has not been an issue either--I'm literally still drinking a batch of sweet cider I made last October, it tastes great.
- I recommend cold-crashing the bottles again after you kill off the yeast, to improve the cider's clarity. Alternatively (or additionally), you can just stick them in the fridge for a week or so before you serve.
- I've found that doing cider this way limits the alcohol content you can achieve to around 3%, since the cider's OG is not that great, at least not the fresh unpasteurized stuff I get. If you want a more alcoholic cider, you can always boil down the cider to give you a higher starting OG, although this kills the natural yeast. I use champagne yeast in my cider so that's not a concern for me. If you wanted a more alcoholic cider but also wanted to use natural yeast to ferment, you could boil most of the unpasteurized cider you plan to use to get a higher OG, but keep some out as a starter. Allow it to get going and create a bunch of yeast, then add it back to your concentrated cider once it's cool.

This method has worked great for me, although I'll admit I get a little nervous about blowing one up when handling the hot cider bottles. What do people think? Is this crazy dangerous, or crazy smart?

 

[sashurlow]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-pics-193295/
Most people would concider it brilliant. Most people would also concider it not original.

 

[jerrodm]

Excellent--hadn't seen that thread before. I asked at my LHBS when I was trying to figure out how to do this and they'd never heard of it before. Guess I re-invented the wheel a little bit, but from reading that thread it looks like my method is pretty close to what others are doing. I also note that others have concerns about the possibility of an exploding bottle as well. Just make sure you're careful with the bottles, and keep the lid on your pot!

 

[MarkKF]

The last two bottles of my blackberry cider. Bottled in June with bottle priming. Nice fizz if you ask me.

 

[jerrodm]

Looks great Mark. Did you kill the fermentation with heat, or do something else?

 

[Jacob_Marley]

The lactose is not fermentable by the yeast ... BUT if Lactic Acid Bacteria gets ahold of it, the bacteria will ferment the lactose and break it into galactose and glucose ... which certainly IS fermentable by yeast.
So maintaining good consistent sanitation (to avoid the bacteria) is important when using lactose.

A way to minimize the opportunity for wild bacteria to get ahold of the lactose would be to add the lactose right at bottling and to observe good sanitation and sanitary technique. Using cider that was produced with strict sanitation as equally as important.
Ever had MLF in your cider-house or vinting room? ... keep the cider you will be using lactose with away from that area, and keep all equipment well sanitized.

So, as far as your intention to sweeten and prime for carbonation, you would basically be adding lactose to taste at the time of priming. Though I'm not sure of the amount of fermentables potentially added (if you get a lactic acid bacteria infection) considering the small amount of lactose you'd likely use; if many bottles turn into geysers even though your priming calculations were careful ... Lactic Acid bacteria may possibly have gotten ahold of it.

 

[Bevilaquafoto]

Thank you, Jacob Marley! Interesting thoughts. In finding that as my first batch of cider has been sitting in bottles for over a month, I'm actually liking it without the added sweetness. I'm going to try a 1 gallon batch with the lactose and see what I get, being very careful with sanitizing.

 

[MarkKF]

I always ferment dry. Wait a month prime & bottle. Then heat pasteurize when the carbonation is right.

 

[surfnorth]

I've tried to solve this question myself, and have found a system that works for me, but am curious what others think. Here's my method:

- Start your cider and allow it to ferment until it has about the level of sweetness you want.
- Once this is reached, cold crash your cider to drop as much suspended material, yeast &c out of suspension as possible. There will still be plenty of yeast left for carbonation.
- Bottle your cider and bring it back up to normal fermentation levels. If you have any small bottles (Fever Tree tonic bottles are what I use), fill five or six of these as test bottles.
- When you bring the temperature back up, the yeast will get back to work consuming sugar. After a couple of days (I start at about two to three days after bottling) open one of your small test bottles to see how much carbonation has developed. Do this once a day or so until you think there's enough carbonation in your bottles.
- Once the carbonation level is where you want it, heat a 2/3 full kettle of water to about 140F, and gently place your bottles in the bath. Leave them in for at least twenty minutes. The hot water bath will kill the yeast, stopping fermentation.

Now you can store your cider at room temp without worrying about the bottles exploding, and they'll stay sweet and fizzy.

A couple of points:

- Be VERY careful when handling your carbonated cider bottles--the last thing you want to do is drop one as you're taking it out of the hot water bath and have it explode, spraying hot cider and fragments of glass all over you.
- Do NOT boil your bottles. First of all, it's unnecessary--yeast don't live in temps much above 120F. Second of all, when you increase the temp of a liquid or gas inside a closed space, you increase the pressure, which could cause a bottle to explode.
- For the same reason as above, keep a lid on your hot water bath, just to be on the safe side. I've never blown up a bottle, but it's never a bad idea to be careful.
- I have not had success in keeping my carbonation in Grolsch-type swing-top bottles using this method—I think the heating forces the CO2 out around the seal, and they end up flat. Cap bottles don’t have this problem.
- Some might worry that killing the yeast this way would cause autolysis and off-flavors. My experience from several batches done this way is that there is not enough yeast left (esp. after cold-crashing) for this to be a noticeable problem. Stability over time has not been an issue either--I'm literally still drinking a batch of sweet cider I made last October, it tastes great.
- I recommend cold-crashing the bottles again after you kill off the yeast, to improve the cider's clarity. Alternatively (or additionally), you can just stick them in the fridge for a week or so before you serve.
- I've found that doing cider this way limits the alcohol content you can achieve to around 3%, since the cider's OG is not that great, at least not the fresh unpasteurized stuff I get. If you want a more alcoholic cider, you can always boil down the cider to give you a higher starting OG, although this kills the natural yeast. I use champagne yeast in my cider so that's not a concern for me. If you wanted a more alcoholic cider but also wanted to use natural yeast to ferment, you could boil most of the unpasteurized cider you plan to use to get a higher OG, but keep some out as a starter. Allow it to get going and create a bunch of yeast, then add it back to your concentrated cider once it's cool.

This method has worked great for me, although I'll admit I get a little nervous about blowing one up when handling the hot cider bottles. What do people think? Is this crazy dangerous, or crazy smart?

Smart, have been doing it for years, do lose some bottles as i heat them up with the water. caps do not always hold in all of the carb.

 

[oregonbrew541]

try the applekush recipe its sweet, its carbonated, its the process and the yeast you use in MY opinion.. but yes like everyone said you can use non fermentables and traditionally condition. but the taste is not the same… it may be sweet but too dry and at that point too tart...