Trying out a new APA recipe

[dirty_martini]

I fall into the anti-crystal malt camp when it comes to IPAs/APAs. My basic recipe for those is something to this effect...

65% 2-row
25% Maris Otter
5% Cara-pils
5% Melanoidin

Its always given me a solid malt profile with a soft bready note and no lingering caramel sweetness. Tasty, but I felt like I was lacking in head retention. Recently I had Kern Rivers 5th Anniversary DIPA and it had the best head retention Ive ever seen (good enough to make Orval jealous) so I emailed them and they said they used Wheat in all of their IPAs. So it got me to thinking about trying a entirely different recipe just for ****s and giggles. Curious what everyone thinks.

6lbs 2-row 57%
3lbs Maris Otter 29%
.75lbs Wheat 7%
.5lbs Cara-pils 5%
.25lbs Carawheat 40L 2%

hops:
.5oz Nelson Sauvin - 12.4 AA% FWH
.5oz Nelson Sauvin 30mins
1oz Nelson Sauvin KO
1oz Citra - 11 AA% KO
1oz each Nelson and Citra Dry Hop

1.054
1.012
40 IBUs

I figure, if Im only using 4oz a caramel malt isnt too bad, plus with carawheat Im killing two birds with one stone. A caramel malt to lend some malt complexity (but not enough to be too sweet) and its wheat so it can aid in head retention. The hop profile isnt my normal one, but I think it should be tasty with a lot of citrus and tropical fruits.

 

[GuldTuborg]

You do know CARApils is a CARAmel malt, yes?

 

[Cascadegan]

You do know CARApils is a CARAmel malt, yes?

You have just opened my eyes. Can't believe I never made that connection...

 

[dirty_martini]

You do know CARApils is a CARAmel malt, yes?

So tell me. How much caramel sweetness does it bring to the beer? Oh that's right, none.

No need to be a smartass. Yes, technically carapils is a caramel malt. But at 1.5L, it's not bringing the flavor of the true caramel/crystal malts. Thus, I treat it differently.

I've got an idea. Why don't you answer the post as opposed to trying to correct me?

 

[skibb]

So you originally added carapils for head retention or body contribution? If it's for head retention, I would just nix it and just go solely with the wheat - but I've always been a fan of super simple grain bills.

Plus carawheat is just a crystal malt with wheat as the base, so you will be getting caramel sweetness from that.

 

[Yooper]

So tell me. How much caramel sweetness does it bring to the beer? Oh that's right, none.

No need to be a smartass. Yes, technically carapils is a caramel malt. But at 1.5L, it's not bringing the flavor of the true caramel/crystal malts. Thus, I treat it differently.

I've got an idea. Why don't you answer the post as opposed to trying to correct me?

You may use it differently, but it IS a caramel/crystal malt and it does have properties of a crystal malt. That was simply being pointed out, you're the one being smart-alec-y.

I was going to give you my opinion, which involves victory malt and my thoughts on the wheat (including CARAwheat) but your snarky attitude pissed me off.

 

[dirty_martini]

You may use it differently, but it IS a caramel/crystal malt and it does have properties of a crystal malt. That was simply being pointed out, you're the one being smart-alec-y.

I was going to give you my opinion, which involves victory malt and my thoughts on the wheat (including CARAwheat) but your snarky attitude pissed me off.

Sorry I came off that way but I felt like the way the post was made, he was talking to me like I was an idiot. The bolding of the letters along with the fact there was nothing with it beyond correcting me felt smart-alec-y to me, so I reacted.

 

[dirty_martini]

So you originally added carapils for head retention or body contribution? If it's for head retention, I would just nix it and just go solely with the wheat - but I've always been a fan of super simple grain bills.

Plus carawheat is just a crystal malt with wheat as the base, so you will be getting caramel sweetness from that.

I did use carapils for body as well. I think the main idea behind this recipe was to incorporate wheat in without changing too much. I subbed a small portion of the base for wheat and instead of the melanoidin (which I like because it adds malt punch without sweetness), I would give the carawheat a try. Usually I don't use any caramel malts, but since I wanted to get some wheat in the beer, I figured why not give it a try. It's such a small amount so it shouldn't give me the overly sweet note I worry about. (I hope)

 

[jetmac]

Is it something in the water. This is not the first recent post where someone asks for advice then gets pissy because of the way it's presented. Stop being so damn sensitive people.

The first line of your thread is "I fall into the anti-crystal malt camp when it comes to IPAs/APAs"

But then you add it to your recipe.

Off the top of my head it looks like you have too much hops for an APA. Maybe not

 

[dirty_martini]

Is it something in the water. This is not the first recent post where someone asks for advice then gets pissy because of the way it's presented. Stop being so damn sensitive people.

The first line of your thread is "I fall into the anti-crystal malt camp when it comes to IPAs/APAs"

But then you add it to your recipe.

Off the top of my head it looks like you have too much hops for an APA. Maybe not

I've always thought of carapils as a dextrine malt, not so much a crystal malt as it doesn't have the caramel note in the flavor. It's all just a technicality. If there was advice attached to the original comment, I wouldn't have reacted. It was also a long day and I was irritable. When I reference caramel/crystal, I'm referring to 20L up through special b. Yes, I'm trying carawheat, which is partly why the thread was created. Just tasting the grain it doesn't taste as sweet as it's crystal 40 equivalent.

As for hops, yeah, it's definitely more in the extra pale ale territory. I like beers like drakes 1500 or three floyds alpha king over your standard apas ala Sierra. It's only 40 ibus, so it shouldn't be too bitter.

 

[IPA4ME]

I always tend to throw a little wheat malt (4%-8%) in my APAs/IPAs for better head/head retention. It works great. You can change your recipe up a bit and throw some Carawheat in there but if you decided to keep it the same, just sub out some 2 row for wheat malt and that should do the trick.

 

[dirty_martini]

I always tend to throw a little wheat malt (4%-8%) in my APAs/IPAs for better head/head retention. It works great. You can change your recipe up a bit and throw some Carawheat in there but if you decided to keep it the same, just sub out some 2 row for wheat malt and that should do the trick.

Thats good to hear. Ive always thought about it but didnt want to lose the clarity of the beer. How much wheat do you think you can add without adding the wheat haze?

 

[CPooley4]

I use 33% wheat in one of my amber recipes. It's actually my favorite recipe, was inspired by the old einbeck adage (back in the 1500's or so) of using 33% wheat in their beer. Still a very clear beer as I cold crash it for a week prior to kegging.

 

[IPA4ME]

Thats good to hear. Ive always thought about it but didnt want to lose the clarity of the beer. How much wheat do you think you can add without adding the wheat haze?

Tough to say. I never add any clarifying agents to my beers, nor do I cold crash. My beers are always hazy at first, with or without the wheat addition. After a few weeks in the fridge they clear up just fine.

 

[Yooper]

With the original recipe, you should have pretty darn good head retention. 5% carapils should do it. But since it's a bit lacking, I'd suggest doing what you planned, but not even adding the carawheat. Just change one thing, and add the wheat. I'd go with flaked wheat, as I think it works wonderfully well, and leave out the carawheat this go-round.

In darker beers, I like flaked barley for crazy good head retention. It creates far more of a haze, though, so I only use it in browns, stouts, etc.

You can use a .5 pound of flaked wheat and will get really nice head retention without haze (in a 5 gallon batch).

I'd still keep the melanoidin malt if you really like that grainbill, because nothing in your "new" recipe will replace it. I'm also in the "no crystal" camp most of the time, and I use other malts (no carapils usually) and still have pretty darn good head retention and lacing. I've done well with victory malt, toasted two row, biscuit malt, a little amber malt, aromatic malt, etc. All of them bring slightly different things to the grain bill. Melanoidin malt is new to me, but I used it in a recent batch and I really like it, so it may very well be in my "no crystal APAs and IPAs" rotation.

 

[jetmac]

I've always thought of carapils as a dextrine malt, not so much a crystal malt as it doesn't have the caramel note in the flavor. It's all just a technicality. If there was advice attached to the original comment, I wouldn't have reacted. It was also a long day and I was irritable. When I reference caramel/crystal, I'm referring to 20L up through special b. Yes, I'm trying carawheat, which is partly why the thread was created. Just tasting the grain it doesn't taste as sweet as it's crystal 40 equivalent.

As for hops, yeah, it's definitely more in the extra pale ale territory. I like beers like drakes 1500 or three floyds alpha king over your standard apas ala Sierra. It's only 40 ibus, so it shouldn't be too bitter.

 

[dirty_martini]

With the original recipe, you should have pretty darn good head retention. 5% carapils should do it. But since it's a bit lacking, I'd suggest doing what you planned, but not even adding the carawheat. Just change one thing, and add the wheat. I'd go with flaked wheat, as I think it works wonderfully well, and leave out the carawheat this go-round.

In darker beers, I like flaked barley for crazy good head retention. It creates far more of a haze, though, so I only use it in browns, stouts, etc.

You can use a .5 pound of flaked wheat and will get really nice head retention without haze (in a 5 gallon batch).

I'd still keep the melanoidin malt if you really like that grainbill, because nothing in your "new" recipe will replace it. I'm also in the "no crystal" camp most of the time, and I use other malts (no carapils usually) and still have pretty darn good head retention and lacing. I've done well with victory malt, toasted two row, biscuit malt, a little amber malt, aromatic malt, etc. All of them bring slightly different things to the grain bill. Melanoidin malt is new to me, but I used it in a recent batch and I really like it, so it may very well be in my "no crystal APAs and IPAs" rotation.

I actually went ahead and brewed it as is on my recipe with one big exception. I halved it and brewed up a 2.5gal batch. Its a new recipe anyhow, so why not have less commitment.

I kept the carawheat just to see what the flavor is. I used half of what I would melanoidin since it was 40L as opposed to the 20ish that melanoidin is. Ive always used melanoidin as a carapils+crystal20 combo. Thats kinda the impression it gave me. Like munich malt in flavor, but with a little more color and added body/head retention/malt flavor.

I too like flaked wheat but I heard it gives more haze, and I didnt want this beer coming across as a wheat beer in appearance or flavor (as I tend to get more of that wheat "twang" when Ive used the flaked). I use flaked in my berliners and love it.

Ive never used amber malt (LHBS doesnt have it), Im cautious about the victory/biscuit as I dont like too much toastiness (at least not in my IPA/APAs), and Ive heard aromatic and melanoidin are good substitutes for each other...and ive always had the good results with the melanoidin so why sub until I have to.

I think what I may do is brew up another batch soon with my old recipe, but just sub a portion of 2-row for wheat compare and contrast. Luckily, I have a big stock of citra and nelsons so I can reproduce the same hop profile numerous times

 

[GuldTuborg]

I've got an idea. Why don't you answer the post as opposed to trying to correct me?

I'm not trying to be an ass. If I came across that way, I apologize. The use of upper case letters was for emphasis. There aren't too many ways to capture the nuances of speech using pixels. I tried to make use of the tools that were available to me. I just found it a bit odd that you made such a big deal out of using no crystal malts, yet added carapils in each version of the recipe posted. No, it's not quite the same as other crystal malts (but then again, none of them are the same as another), but it is a crystal malt and does give many of the same characteristics to the beer as other crystal malts.

I have made pale ales both with and without crystal malts. To be honest, I think both approaches make good beers, but I like a small amount of crystal malt better. It gives a bit more body and a touch of extra sweetness and maltiness, and I find I can up the hopping level a bit and still keep things in balance. It makes for a slightly more robust beer, but that's more to my liking. If I strictly wanted something as a summer refresher, I'd probably go the crystalless route, but most of the time, I use around 4% C40 in my usual APA. In your case, I'd imagine it would turn out just fine using the carawheat. With such a small quantity, I doubt you'd need to change anything. But it you find it throws the balance off a bit too much for your liking, up your late hopping by a bit, and that ought to get everything back to where you like it.

 

[dirty_martini]

So here the verdict...

I dont like the carawheat. The beer came out pretty dark. Oddly dark. Plus, with the wheat it just looked murky. It was an ugly beer, with the exception that the head retention was awesome. The body was nice as well. Also, I think I need to boost the gypsum in my recipe. I added a little, but the bitterness here was really soft. Almost non-existent. That along with the malt gave it a muddled flavor. Not nearly crisp enough. The hop flavor was nice ( I do think I need to back down a little on the dry hop so its not TOO green), but without the crisp bitterness it came off a little flat.

So here is the new recipe based on what I like from both of my beers...

60% 2-row
25% Maris Otter
10% Wheat
5% Melanoidin

The maris otter and melanoidin should give the extra malt punch I need without any crystal. Melanoidin is known to aid head retention and body as well so with that and the Wheat I shouldnt have any issues with that. If the next batch comes out too hazy because of the wheat I will likely back it down to 5-7%. We will see.

Also, what is the sulfate range everyone aims for when doing the hoppy beers. 2 grams of gypsum gets my sulfates up to about 100 with my water profile, but I was thinking I should aim higher. I know the burton profile is in the 300s, but I would have to add a lot of gypsum or epson salts to get there and I dont want to overdo it.