Trub Question

[SRJHops]

I've been doing some massive whirlpool hop additions for my NEIPA, which results in a ton of hops "trub" in the bottom of the kettle after draining to the fermenter. I see all the hops left over and hate to just leave them in the bottom of the kettle -- I spent a lot of money on those tasty hops! -- so I usually just dump it all into the fermenter. My question is whether this is GOOD, BAD, or DOESN'T MATTER?

If all the hoppy goodness has already been extracted during my 30-minute whirlpool, maybe I should just leave all the hops trub in the kettle? Or maybe I should even bag the hops for the whirlpool, so none of the vegetal matter makes it to the fermenter.

Thoughts?

 

[doug293cz]

Proof is in the tasting. If you aren't getting off flavors with the "just dump in all in" approach, just what is it you are trying to fix?

I expect that follow-on answers to your question will be either:

1. Don't dump the trub in the fermenter -- it's bad
2. Nothing bad happens when trub goes in the fermenter
3. Do what works for you

My answer is #3.

Brew on

 

[Rev2010]

Personally, I've never found much a taste difference between a ton of trub in the fermenter vs. not. I have however noticed murkier looking beers in the drinking glass with a ton of trub in the fermenter, so if clarity is of importance to you than you might want to consider that.

That said, my reason for preferring to not get all that trub in the fermenter probably aligns with that of others.

1. A thick trub layer can create a thicker floor that extends up to the spigot and either clog it or cause an amount of trub to be then sucked up into the bottles/keg.

2. It makes it harder to actually know what your final levels are. If you keep it in the kettle and out of the fermenter then you have a good idea how much volume you really have in the fermenter as opposed to finding out later that you are actually 2/3rd's gallon shy due to trub settling out.

3. The cleaner the wort going into the fermenter the clearer it will be in the glass. It won't eliminate chill haze, but less particulate matter in solution means clearer beer overall.

Those are my personal main points to try to keep trub behind in the kettle.


Rev.

 

[SRJHops]

Proof is in the tasting. If you aren't getting off flavors with the "just dump in all in" approach, just what is it you are trying to fix?

I expect that follow-on answers to your question will be either:

1. Don't dump the trub in the fermenter -- it's bad
2. Nothing bad happens when trub goes in the fermenter
3. Do what works for you

My answer is #3.

Brew on

Your point is well taken. My last NEIPA turned out GREAT, and it included all the hops trub. However, I am curious if I really NEED to dump it in. I do think it caused some blockage in the spigot as I was bottling (I bottle right from the fermenter to avoid oxidation.) I course can experiment by not dumping it next time...

 

[SRJHops]

Personally, I've never found much a taste difference between a ton of trub in the fermenter vs. not. I have however noticed murkier looking beers in the drinking glass with a ton of trub in the fermenter, so if clarity is of importance to you than you might want to consider that.

That said, my reason for preferring to not get all that trub in the fermenter probably aligns with that of others.

1. A thick trub layer can create a thicker floor that extends up to the spigot and either clog it or cause an amount of trub to be then sucked up into the bottles/keg.

2. It makes it harder to actually know what your final levels are. If you keep it in the kettle and out of the fermenter then you have a good idea how much volume you really have in the fermenter as opposed to finding out later that you are actually 2/3rd's gallon shy due to trub settling out.

3. The cleaner the wort going into the fermenter the clearer it will be in the glass. It won't eliminate chill haze, but less particulate matter in solution means clearer beer overall.

Those are my personal main points to try to keep trub behind in the kettle.


Rev.

Great points all... I'm not worried about clarity for this beer (NEIPA), but I might for other styles. I also DID have trouble with the spigot clogging last time! If there's not really a taste difference, I think leaving the hops trub behind might be the best practice. Thanks for your comments.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I will admit that I am on the fence here. I have seen evidence that trub will both help your fermentation and also help your beer to clear faster. I don't believe the "The cleaner the wort going into the fermenter the clearer it will be in the glass" advice. I do know that the more stuff you have in the fermenter, the more stuff you have to deal with when you transfer it out though, which can be an issue.

I used to just dump the full volume of my pot into my fermenter and I used to always use a secondary fermenter, half to help with reducing the amount of stuff to deal with at bottling and half to free up my 6.5 gallon carboy for the next batch. At some point I switched to using a auto-siphon and leaving trub behind. I am not sure I noticed any real difference. I brewed an Oatmeal Stout this weekend and I intentionally pumped as much of the trub in the pot into my fermenter as possible, but I did leave most of the spent hops behind.

I have also wondered about your specific question about hops. Does transferring the "hop trub" help with hop flavor or aroma? This seems especially relevant to hops that were just added during flameout or whirlpool. Or does it have potential for adding grassy/off flavors?

 

[SRJHops]

I will admit that I am on the fence here. I have seen evidence that trub will both help your fermentation and also help your beer to clear faster. I don't believe the "The cleaner the wort going into the fermenter the clearer it will be in the glass" advice. I do know that the more stuff you have in the fermenter, the more stuff you have to deal with when you transfer it out though, which can be an issue.

I used to just dump the full volume of my pot into my fermenter and I used to always use a secondary fermenter, half to help with reducing the amount of stuff to deal with at bottling and half to free up my 6.5 gallon carboy for the next batch. At some point I switched to using a auto-siphon and leaving trub behind. I am not sure I noticed any real difference. I brewed an Oatmeal Stout this weekend and I intentionally pumped as much of the trub in the pot into my fermenter as possible, but I did leave most of the spent hops behind.

I have also wondered about your specific question about hops. Does transferring the "hop trub" help with hop flavor or aroma? This seems especially relevant to hops that were just added during flameout or whirlpool. Or does it have potential for adding grassy/off flavors?

Thanks for your thoughts/comments. I've been throwing all the hop trub into the fermenter for my NEIPA's and haven't noticed any off flavors. (I use about 10 ounces of hops in whirlpool, so I have a lot of trub!)

Several people say there's no/little difference in taste either way, which I think is the big question. Is there still some hoppy goodness left in those hops after the whirlpool, or are they all spent? I guess I would still lean toward dumping them all in, as long as I don't get the grassy flavors.

I use a closed system to avoid oxidation, so I bottle from primary (skip the bottling bucket) and use sugar tablets in each bomber. I bottled on Sunday and was able to clear the trub near the spigot by filling up a half pint and also the hydrometer tube for the FG measurement. Then I hooked up my new larger diameter bottling wand and everything went great! (It also occurred to me that I could tilt the fermenter up a little during the 2-week fermentation, which might give me all the room I need to avoid trub getting into the spigot/wand/bottles.)

Back to the boiling kettle -- do you have a lot of trub that is NOT hops? I ask because the water calculators always have something like .25 or even .5 gallons left of trub in the kettle, but I usually don't have anything left in the kettle except the hops.

 

[balrog]

FYI The Kettle Loss in the calcs usually is for those with pipe-out-fittings, rather than us lift-and-dump types. Or the "normal" procedure of whirlpooling and leaving something behind in the kettle.

As for tilting the fermenter, that is what I was going to mention having seen as an idea: at the start of fermentation, tilt the fermenter away from spigot, making spigot slightly higher, and sediment will not be around the pickup on the inside.

 

[SRJHops]

FYI The Kettle Loss in the calcs usually is for those with pipe-out-fittings, rather than us lift-and-dump types. Or the "normal" procedure of whirlpooling and leaving something behind in the kettle.

As for tilting the fermenter, that is what I was going to mention having seen as an idea: at the start of fermentation, tilt the fermenter away from spigot, making spigot slightly higher, and sediment will not be around the pickup on the inside.

That makes sense -- I do have a pipe out fitting on my kettle, but once most everything is in the carboy I can lift up my 10-gallon kettle and dump it all in. But for people with very large kettles/systems, I can see how they would have to leave a lot more trub behind.

Going to try that carboy tilt next time. I bet lots of other folks are skipping secondary these days, so it seems like a good plan. Need to keep that trub in the carboy!

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Back to the boiling kettle -- do you have a lot of trub that is NOT hops? I ask because the water calculators always have something like .25 or even .5 gallons left of trub in the kettle, but I usually don't have anything left in the kettle except the hops.

I guess I will admit that I don't know the the exact makeup of trub left. With a hoppy beer you have quite a lot of hop debris (especially with whole hops)...but there is a mix of other stuff from the grains. I am also not quite sure if the hop particles are considered part of the "trub". If I avoid getting any of this trub into my fermenter I have to leave behind a quart or so of wort.

I found this article, but I am not sure if it clear it up or muddies it more for me:
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/0U8NFlUMbJ/

 

[SRJHops]

I guess I will admit that I don't know the the exact makeup of trub left. With a hoppy beer you have quite a lot of hop debris (especially with whole hops)...but there is a mix of other stuff from the grains. I am also not quite sure if the hop particles are considered part of the "trub". If I avoid getting any of this trub into my fermenter I have to leave behind a quart or so of wort.

I found this article, but I am not sure if it clear it up or muddies it more for me:
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/0U8NFlUMbJ/

Interesting link... I do always see the hot break, and while sometimes I skim it off, lately I've just been leaving it alone. It actually seems to just go away -- I do not see it left over in the trub, really. As for cold break, I have to admit I have no idea what that really is -- I don't think I've ever seen it in my cooled wort... but since it settles out on the yeast cake, no biggie...

This part of that link/page was interesting: "It is important to remove as much as possible of the two main trub components—the polyphenols and the soluble proteins—during the brewing process because over time they will inevitably react to form insoluble complexes, giving rise to the formation of visible haze and/or precipitates in the beer." WHOA, those are what I WANT in my NEIPA! So I think we can at least say that we want the trub in the carboy for NEIPA's and I'd guess hefeweizens and perhaps all the dark beers too!? Heck, unless you are trying to make a clear pilsner or something, maybe always throw in the trub?!