Troubleshooting dull flavors?

[mmonacel]

I'm finding that most of my brews are turning out with a dull / flat / muted / insipid or almost monotone flavor profile. The flavors just don't seem to pop or provide the complexity I'm looking for. This is especially true when it comes to the malty characteristics of the beer, but it affects the hops as well I feel.

I've done various batches, all making sure to use fresh ingredients. I typically have no issue with nailing mash / sparge temps. I use a yeast starter and all fermentations have gone well. While my ferm temps occasionally were a few degrees above the ideal range, the primary fermentation (first 3-5 days) have all been in the sweet spot. I also let the beers sit in the primary for about a month to do any necessary clean-up, etc.

I'm starting to look at my water / mash pH as a potential source of the issue. I'll be sending away to Ward labs later this week. Any other areas I might want to look at to help diagnose this?

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

Sounds to me like the first place to look would be pH. You are on the right track. pH can have a huge effect on flavor perception.

 

[Homercidal]

pH and flavor minerals in your water can really affect how the flavors taste.

Water chemistry can play an important part in your brewing process if you have a real need. The only way you'll really know is to get a test and see where you are at. I think you are on the right track.

 

[mmonacel]

Thanks for the guidance. I almost hoping at this point that my water has obvious issues. My concern is if there's no apparent issue with the water, where to turn from there? In the meantime, I'm looking forward to getting my results back to see where I stand.

 

[mightynintendo]

If you're using tap water, that certainly is an area of concern and a great starting point. For consistent results I always use RO water purchased from my local natural foods grocer. Sure it's $8 for 10 gallons of water, but I'm not brewing to save money. Even if I was, I would still only be spending about $55 after shipping for all my ingredients for a very nice beer resulting in 5 gallons of beer which is $11 per gallon. PBR in the 24 pack is currently selling for $10 per gallon which is about as cheap as you can get. So yeah, definitely not a game changing cost and really improves consistency.

That said, you may be getting too much oxygen in your beer. This might be your next step if your water and pH investigations don't lead anywhere.

 

[Brek81]

are you adjusting your grain bill for your efficiency?

 

[mmonacel]

For consistent results I always use RO water purchased from my local natural foods grocer.

Good point - all else failing I could build it up to be absolutely sure and ensure consistency.

That said, you may be getting too much oxygen in your beer. This might be your next step if your water and pH investigations don't lead anywhere.

Interesting. I'll look into this a bit more in case water adjustments don't do it. Much appreciated!

 

[mmonacel]

are you adjusting your grain bill for your efficiency?

Yep - no problem hitting my targets, mash temps, or volumes which makes me think it's the water.

 

[mightynintendo]

Interesting. I'll look into this a bit more in case water adjustments don't do it. Much appreciated!

Mainly your procedure from fermentation to bottling/kegging. Until then oxygen is welcome ingredient!

 

[bobbytuck]

pH. Get your pH (at room temperature! -- not mash temp) between 5.3 and 5.5 (with a calibrated meter -- not strips) and your dull flavors will be a thing of the past.

You can experiment with successive brews -- try one at 5.3, one at 5.5 -- see which you like best, which has the "pop" -- but pH control (not just pH monitoring) is the cure for all dull flavors.

Download the Bru'n water spreadsheet and zero in on a water profile for the beer you want to make based on the water you're using. Then use a pH meter to check the pH in the first few minutes of the mash. Make the adjustments -- lower pH with lactic or phosphoric acid, raise it with slaked lime, add calcium chloride and/or sulfate for the malty/hoppy balance you like -- and your beer will take amazing leaps in quality.

BTW -- there's no need to use RO water if your tap water is halfway decent. But it's important to get the full chemical analysis from your city water department or use Ward Labs to analyze a sample from the tap. I use Chicago/Lake Michigan water, and it's perfect for browns/ambers/blacks. Ambers I make small adjustments via salts and acids, whereas blacks -- stouts/porters -- I can pretty much use straight from the tap.

 

[mmonacel]

Awesome - that's what I'm hoping for. I've already been looking for a meter and getting my head around the minerals / items I'll need for adjustments. I hear Ward's pretty quick with shipping supplies and results so I hope to get the supplies in the next day or so and turn around by the weekend. I'll likely brew the same thing I just did for a side by side comparison.

 

[mightynintendo]

I wish my tap water was even half decent. Columbia MO tap water is vile. I don't even drink directly from it.

 

[mmonacel]

Well what do you know... I finally got my results back from Ward and sure enough my pH is high. I know water pH itself doesn't have much bearing, it's once the malt's added so I plugged everything into EZ Water Calculator for my last batch and the estimated pH was 5.82, with Chloride / Sulfate ratio of 2.33 and below all recommended levels of Ca, Mg, and Sulfate. Not so good for my blueberry ale. I'm actually excited my water's pretty off since the pieces are starting to come together on why my beer seems to be lacking.

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 18
Mg: 3
Na: 7
Cl: 14
SO4: 6
CaCO3: 31

Thanks for the help here guys. Figuring I had to do some adjustment, my MoreBeer order was already in before I got the results back. Prost!

 

[scribo]

I vote for water as the most likely suspect. Perhaps there is one style that seems to go really well for you? My water is very alkaline and gives me awesome stouts and the like, but needs therapy for anything else.

Another possibility is temps that are too high because your thermometers are off; it is not unusual to have a dial thermometer off by 5 degrees. My digitals are only +/- .

Also, I assume you have used a variety of yeast, so it's not some kind of odd yeast situation.

As referenced above, the Palmer book mentions that over-oxygenated worts can be insipid, with overagressive bubbling of oxygen (as opposed to air) being the culprit.

Bump the thread if you ever figure it out, would like to know how it goes.

 

[mmonacel]

Bump the thread if you ever figure it out, would like to know how it goes.

The update is the post right above yours. Thanks for the input - looks like the water was the likely culprit. Now I can't wait to rebrew my last batch to taste the difference!

 

[Yooper]

I'm so jealous! Your water looks nearly perfect for brewing. My water has a very high bicarb so I'm diluting with RO water to make it decent- and yours is perfect the way it is! Some guys have all the luck!