trouble with my malty brews...help pls

[tomaso]

I don't have any factual evidence as to why this would be the case. I also don't have the capability to set this up and run the experiment side-by-side. It mainly just seems logical. You end up having more grains at the lower efficiency, and if the flavor mainly comes from the husks, then it would make sense that because you're adding more husks to the mash, then you're also adding more flavor. But just to be sure, this isn't brewhouse efficiency, this is mash efficiency we're talking about here.

Well, but do you have any source(s) that give evidence that the flavor is mainly in the husks? It seems a bit far-fetched to me because if it really had such an impact then it would seem to me that it should feature prominently in most of the 'how to brew' literature but in the books/articles I've read so far there's no mention of it.
But as I said, it does seem logical in a way so I definitely want to give it a try!

But in going back and reading through your set-up and processes again, I had one more question: Are you making sure your sparge water is the proper pH level? If you have high pH and are sparging at high temps, then you could be extracting tannins.

Also, are you measuring your runnings; first runnings and last runnings? I wonder if the end of your sparge is beginning to get pretty thin?

Another thing concering your mash, it seems that you have a water to grist ratio of 1.92 (that's measured in qts/lbs). I wonder if you take that down to more like 1.5 if that would help. So with your 3 kg of grains, you would mash with 9.5L of water, and then sparge until you reach your 12-13L. Just another thought to try in the future.

I BIAB so the only sparge I do is a 2,3L mini sparge before the boil and obviously therefore also no runnings. You think the ph of that sparge water (usually use tap for that while spring water for mash and top up) could make a difference?

About the water/grist ratio... Since I'm BIABing I think that it is quite normal (correct me if I'm wrong) and shouldn't cause a problem. I.e. if that fixed my problem many or all BIAB brewers should have the same problem.

Thanks again for all the good input!

 

[joshesmusica]

Well, but do you have any source(s) that give evidence that the flavor is mainly in the husks? It seems a bit far-fetched to me because if it really had such an impact then it would seem to me that it should feature prominently in most of the 'how to brew' literature but in the books/articles I've read so far there's no mention of it.
But as I said, it does seem logical in a way so I definitely want to give it a try!

I don't have anything that talks about it. Obviously the husk isn't the only thing to give the flavor, but then again, there is dehusked roasted malt, in order to give color, but not much of the bitter flavor. The theory that the malt flavor comes from unfermented sugars just doesn't quite hold true in my book. I had a pale ale that I made for a friend's wedding that got all the way down to 1.006! This was one of the best malt flavors I've ever had in a pale ale, but it wasn't sweet. That's even comparing to ones that I've had stay up at 1.018.

I BIAB so the only sparge I do is a 2,3L mini sparge before the boil and obviously therefore also no runnings. You think the ph of that sparge water (usually use tap for that while spring water for mash and top up) could make a difference?

About the water/grist ratio... Since I'm BIABing I think that it is quite normal (correct me if I'm wrong) and shouldn't cause a problem. I.e. if that fixed my problem many or all BIAB brewers should have the same problem.

Thanks again for all the good input!

I BIAB as well. I do a batch sparge, but my process is quite ghetto, so the runnings from the batch sparge are my "top-up water."

What do you mean by mini sparge? A mini batch sparge, or a mini fly sparge? I think that if your temps are too high (I believe over 175F), and your pH is too high (above 5.8) then you will begin to extract tannins. It does take a combo of the two, though. So with a typical fly sparge they usually start with sparge water at 5.5 in order to ensure that it won't get above 5.8 by the end of the sparge. I believe with batch sparging, it should have the same effect, just quicker, so you would still wanna start around 5.5. In such a small batch size, I could imagine that if those last 2.3L is above 5.8 (and your sparge temp is high), then you would be extracting enough tannins for it to be noticeable. The flavor that comes from tannins is called astringency in English. It's basically if you can imagine that feeling that almost makes your mouth feel like it got dried up with a cloth after a drink of wine or some over-steeped teas, that's astringency. IF this was your problem, I could really see it taking away some of the malt flavor because of the way the tannins react with your tongue and therefore your tastebuds.

As far as the water/grist ratio, I won't say that the BIABers out there aren't trying tons and tons of styles, but I only know of a few that are really shooting for the delicate malt-forward german beer styles like you are. One of them is Gavin C, and he has a really good thread on the subject.

 

[joshesmusica]

Also, just another random thought:

Even though you said you know the mineral content of your spring water, you did say that when putting in those numbers that the estimated pH is off. AKA, the numbers you're inputting are wrong, which could mean the mineral content of the spring water is varying from season to season. I would start with Reverse Osmosis water, and build up from there. I use tap water that comes flowing down from the Norwegian mountains... It's basically RO water, and I add no minerals to it right now, and I'm getting plenty of malt flavor from my beers. I even just finished off an oktoberfest ale, and it was a really good, almost amber-lager tasting beer. My wife hates lagers, and she wouldn't drink it cause it tasted too much like a lager!

 

[tomaso]

I don't have anything that talks about it. Obviously the husk isn't the only thing to give the flavor, but then again, there is dehusked roasted malt, in order to give color, but not much of the bitter flavor. The theory that the malt flavor comes from unfermented sugars just doesn't quite hold true in my book. I had a pale ale that I made for a friend's wedding that got all the way down to 1.006! This was one of the best malt flavors I've ever had in a pale ale, but it wasn't sweet. That's even comparing to ones that I've had stay up at 1.018.



I BIAB as well. I do a batch sparge, but my process is quite ghetto, so the runnings from the batch sparge are my "top-up water."

What do you mean by mini sparge? A mini batch sparge, or a mini fly sparge? I think that if your temps are too high (I believe over 175F), and your pH is too high (above 5.8) then you will begin to extract tannins. It does take a combo of the two, though. So with a typical fly sparge they usually start with sparge water at 5.5 in order to ensure that it won't get above 5.8 by the end of the sparge. I believe with batch sparging, it should have the same effect, just quicker, so you would still wanna start around 5.5. In such a small batch size, I could imagine that if those last 2.3L is above 5.8 (and your sparge temp is high), then you would be extracting enough tannins for it to be noticeable. The flavor that comes from tannins is called astringency in English. It's basically if you can imagine that feeling that almost makes your mouth feel like it got dried up with a cloth after a drink of wine or some over-steeped teas, that's astringency. IF this was your problem, I could really see it taking away some of the malt flavor because of the way the tannins react with your tongue and therefore your tastebuds.

As far as the water/grist ratio, I won't say that the BIABers out there aren't trying tons and tons of styles, but I only know of a few that are really shooting for the delicate malt-forward german beer styles like you are. One of them is Gavin C, and he has a really good thread on the subject.

The taste that's obscuring the malt flavor and is bothering me is pretty sure not astringent so no problem there I think.

What's that link you're referring to?

Also, just another random thought:

Even though you said you know the mineral content of your spring water, you did say that when putting in those numbers that the estimated pH is off. AKA, the numbers you're inputting are wrong, which could mean the mineral content of the spring water is varying from season to season. I would start with Reverse Osmosis water, and build up from there. I use tap water that comes flowing down from the Norwegian mountains... It's basically RO water, and I add no minerals to it right now, and I'm getting plenty of malt flavor from my beers. I even just finished off an oktoberfest ale, and it was a really good, almost amber-lager tasting beer. My wife hates lagers, and she wouldn't drink it cause it tasted too much like a lager!

Actually, the second batch of this octoberfast ale brewed without any lactic acid addition was spot on for the expected PH from EZ water (And another one I brewed yesterday as well); It seems that my lactic additions don't turn out right, i.e. maybe are too strong.... which is curious because having tried that beer again yesterday I thought that flavour might actually be sour... maybe from the lactic acid...

And! as well... the second, small octoberfast batch that I fermented at a much lower temp, even though at bottling it had a similar taste, I cracked open the first bottle yesterday after 10days in bottle (2 weeks fermenting) and indeed that bothering taste seems to be gone (or almost gone; have to do another side by side). It is still not as malty as I imagine it should be but it's a nice and round beer.

Now I get the feeling that this isn't due to the lower ferm temperature but somehow I'm on the lactic acid track now... but the thing is I only added 0,8ml (i.e. 0,8g) of lactic acid to 12L of mash water for a batch of 15L so it just doesn' seem like this could be enough to be noticable, even if it were 100% lactic acid (don't know if that even exists).

So I'll keep experimenting with these two issues, i.e. the ferm temp (also using different yeast for that beer) and the lactic acid (maybe try to use acidulated malt or phosphoric instead) and also I'm still intrigued by your suggestion about the lower mash efficiency. Yesterday actually I brewed a milk stout and lowered my efficiency by 10% (to 73%) with a coarser crush. HAppily bubbling away....

So maybe I'll make another small batch of that octoberfast ale with 1.) no lactic acid addition, 2.) a different yeast strain, 3.) and lower mash efficiency

I'll report back on any discoveries or experiments.
Thanks again!

 

[matc]

well tomaso, I won't go into details about my process but let's say that I've made tons of research since 2013 on how to get malty brews and I've tried many many things except measuring my mash ph. I do use brun' water and had my tap water analyzed but my last red ale turned out super thin and dull. On my next batch, I'll use RO water, add minerals and check from there. Let me know if you ever figure out something !

btw, someone mentioned a thing about proper sparge water ph. Is that really important ? My tap water ph is around 8...how do you correct sparge water ph ?

 

[mongoose33]

3) Less efficiency. There are plenty of people trying to get the most out of their grains, but at some points, this will actually start to take away from the flavor you're getting from them. Think of it this way: If you get say 85% efficiency, then you have 5 kilos of grains in order to reach an OG of 1.061. Now let's say that you get instead, 60% efficiency, then all of a sudden you need 7 kilos in order to get 1.060 OG! Those two extra kilos will add a ton more flavor! Most people think that the flavor comes from the husks anyways, and not necessarily from the starches/sugars.

Has anyone ever done an exbeeriment on this, such as screening out the husks and replacing with rice hulls?

Seems like it would be an effective way to test that. I'm still too new at this to trust my process enough to do it, but it wouldn't be hard, two identical grain bills, screen the husks out of one, replace with a like amount of rice hulls, then brew 'em!