Troeg's Mad Elf

[poptarts]

Good time to order a vessel for secondary, if you are going to have to wait a week or two anyways!

Yea batch became like 8.5 gallons and I only have one container that can hold that...

 

[aslander]

Yea batch became like 8.5 gallons and I only have one container that can hold that...

Two 5 better bottles would fit. Heck, I even have a batch dry hopping in a 5 dollar water cooler jug from Walmart! Either way, it's an investment that will get used imho

 

[seckert]

If your not going to use a secondary I'd check the gravity before adding to make sure it's close to where you want it. I just moved mine from one bucket to the other clean one and put the cherries on the bottom before I move it. Not sure if it makes much of a difference but I did it to remove the cake so it might be a little cleaner when I put it into the keg.

Even if you check the gravity prior to it will change since once it is racked over the cherries more fermentation will occur. still haven't figured out how to accurately gauge the amount of ABV the cherries add though. I think if you don't move it over and just add the cherries the yeast cake and cherries would be huge!

 

[poptarts]

My cherries will add 333 grams of sugar or .734 lbs or ~30 gravity points or 3.85 total OG raise.
so .4% abv give or take a little.

 

[seckert]

My cherries will add 333 grams of sugar or .734 lbs or ~30 gravity points or 3.85 total OG raise.
so .4% abv give or take a little.

Are you sure about that? Troegs naked elf is only 9% ABV. While the Maf Elf is 11% the only difference is the cherries...maybe they use a lot more cherries than we are using if your math is correct...?

 

[poptarts]

Im using canned cherries I would assume the gram amounts of sugar is correct. And are you positive its the exact recipe? not different quantities?

 

[seckert]

Im using canned cherries I would assume the gram amounts of sugar is correct. And are you positive its the exact recipe? not different quantities?

From what i have heard yes it is...without the cherries and without the choc malt. The amount of choc malt being used though is so low i cant see it adding that much ABV.
Of course just because the brewery says it is the same, doesnt mean it really is exactly the same. No way of knowing unless we get to actually see their recipes...and you know that isnt going to happen...

 

[finsfan]

From what i have heard yes it is...without the cherries and without the choc malt. The amount of choc malt being used though is so low i cant see it adding that much ABV.
Of course just because the brewery says it is the same, doesnt mean it really is exactly the same. No way of knowing unless we get to actually see their recipes...and you know that isnt going to happen...

Not sure if this has been covered, but has anyone tried to email Troegs and ask about the recipe? I emailed Terrapin with a rough recipe of moo-hoo to ask if it was close, and the head brewer got back to me with suggestions. He said that the base malt was 65-75%, this malt was 5-10%, etc. You would be surprised how helpful some breweries are.

 

[poptarts]

Well according to beersmith in a 5.5 gallon batch it would take 20 lbs of cherries to get 2% abv to bring it from a 9% to an 11%. There is no way that many cherries are in there or it would sell for 20$ a 12 oz bottle.

 

[ChefRex]

Keeps getting better!

 

[seckert]

Well according to beersmith in a 5.5 gallon batch it would take 20 lbs of cherries to get 2% abv to bring it from a 9% to an 11%. There is no way that many cherries are in there or it would sell for 20$ a 12 oz bottle.

Wow! ok then...maybe there is something else they change then...of course they might have the same stuff in naked elf but just different %???

 

[seckert]

Not sure if this has been covered, but has anyone tried to email Troegs and ask about the recipe? I emailed Terrapin with a rough recipe of moo-hoo to ask if it was close, and the head brewer got back to me with suggestions. He said that the base malt was 65-75%, this malt was 5-10%, etc. You would be surprised how helpful some breweries are.

I dont think anyone has...maybe i will send them an email and at least see what they have to say...

 

[finsfan]

I dont think anyone has...maybe i will send them an email and at least see what they have to say...

It never hurts to try. I have emailed three breweries about a recipe. One gave me the exact recipe for a 5 gallon batch, one gave me rough percentages, and one denied me. I was pretty surprised I got 2 out of 3 recipes

 

[seckert]

It never hurts to try. I have emailed three breweries about a recipe. One gave me the exact recipe for a 5 gallon batch, one gave me rough percentages, and one denied me. I was pretty surprised I got 2 out of 3 recipes

Well i just sent them an email, so i guess we will wait and see what happens.

 

[poptarts]

Well i just sent them an email, so i guess we will wait and see what happens.

Nice keep us posted

 

[aslander]

Maybe they will be more forthcoming, but their website already tells us a ton of info, unless they are leaving stuff out:

Tröegs Mad Elf Ale
Alcohol by Volume: 11.0%
Hop Bitterness (IBUs): 15
Color: Ruby Red
Availability: Seasonal (October - December)
Malts: Pilsner, Munich, Chocolate
Hops: Saaz, Hallertau
Yeast: Spicy Belgian
JuJu: Pennsylvania Honey, Sweet and Sour Cherries

Granted, it doesn't give us exact percentages or timing of hop additions, but this has got to get us close. I think we can get it pretty darn close even if they dont provide more info, it will just take some time. That's why I'm doing a batch now, because I want to be able to see how it comes out and then modify the process for the next time when I do this for the holidays.

 

[seckert]

Ok so I received an email back already. It helped out a bit with some of the timelines and grain %
Mad Elf Recipe that I sent them is:
13 lbs Belgian Pils
2 lbs Belgian Munich
3 oz Belgian Chocolate (Malt)

Mash at 152*
Mashout at 170*

1 oz Hallertau at 90 min
0.5 oz Saaz at 10 min
2 lbs Clover Honey at flame out

4 cans cherries in secondary (2 sweet, 2 sour)

Yeast : Wyeast 3787

Their reply was:
Your recipe should definitely get you close to Mad Elf. Munich malt makes up 20% of the grist for Mad Elf. We add our second hop and honey with 20 minutes left in the 90 minute boil, then add cherries about half way through fermentation at a rate of .4 lbs. per gal.

Naked Elf has no cherries, honey or chocolate malt. We also lower the gravity of the beer for a lower ABV.

So...I need to recalculate the amount of Munich in the recipe and change some of the timeline. The last sentence was because i had asked about the Naked Elf beer as well.

 

[seckert]

This is the recipe i am going to use next time i make. it has 20% munich and i added to the Belgian Pils so i will hit 10.67% ABV, If you add the .4% ABV that poptarts figured for the cherries it will give us right at the 11% mark which is what it should be.

14.5 lbs Belgian Pils
3.7lbs Belgian Munich
3 oz Belgian Chocolate (Malt)

Mash at 152*
Mashout at 170*

1 oz Hallertau at 90 min
0.5 oz Saaz at 20 min
2 lbs Clover Honey at 20 min

4 cans cherries halfway through fermentation (2 sweet, 2 sour) (figuring about day 4ish?)

Yeast : Wyeast 3787

Does anyone have thoughts on when halfway thru fermentation would be? I was thinking day 4, but it might be later...?

 

[poptarts]

Nice find, looks like ill swap out a bit of munich for pilsner next time and toss honey in durring the boil. And looks like im adding my cherries tonight.

 

[poptarts]

This is the recipe i am going to use next time i make. it has 20% munich and i added to the Belgian Pils so i will hit 10.67% ABV, If you add the .4% ABV that poptarts figured for the cherries it will give us right at the 11% mark which is what it should be.

14.5 lbs Belgian Pils
3.7lbs Belgian Munich
3 oz Belgian Chocolate (Malt)

Mash at 152*
Mashout at 170*

1 oz Hallertau at 90 min
0.5 oz Saaz at 20 min
2 lbs Clover Honey at 20 min

4 cans cherries halfway through fermentation (2 sweet, 2 sour) (figuring about day 4ish?)

Yeast : Wyeast 3787

Does anyone have thoughts on when halfway thru fermentation would be? I was thinking day 4, but it might be later...?

Ill aim for 1 week to add cherries next time. figure 2 weeks for complete fermentation. I cant imagine it makes that big of a differance.

 

[seckert]

Funny thing too is when i moved the hop addition to the 20 min mark instead of 10 the IBUs were almost right on as well. 14.80 instead of 13.62 with the way it was. i didnt even notice that was off beforehand.

 

[seckert]

Ill aim for 1 week to add cherries next time. figure 2 weeks for complete fermentation. I cant imagine it makes that big of a differance.

you are right. I will probably just add them then next weekend after i have brewed it. might only be 5-6 days but like you said it is probably close enough...wish i would have figured this out before making the 2nd batch. of course i will get to see how the temp figures into the flavor on this one and the additional yeast i made by stepping up the yeast.

 

[finsfan]

Ok so I received an email back already. It helped out a bit with some of the timelines and grain %

Always nice to see a large brewery help out us small guys

 

[poptarts]

My beer is 10 days old today so i should be pretty close to the mark on that, looks like my munich made up 15% not 20% so shouldn't bee too far off. My IBU is 14.9 since I did a 30 minute and 0 minute addition on the second hops.

 

[finsfan]

My beer is 10 days old today so i should be pretty close to the mark on that, looks like my munich made up 15% not 20% so shouldn't bee too far off. My IBU is 14.9 since I did a 30 minute and 0 minute addition on the second hops.

We need to put a trade together next fall so I can sample this and your Abyss clone

 

[seckert]

My beer is 10 days old today so i should be pretty close to the mark on that, looks like my munich made up 15% not 20% so shouldn't bee too far off. My IBU is 14.9 since I did a 30 minute and 0 minute addition on the second hops.

My beer is almost at 3 weeks in the primary. I was going to move to secondary over the cherries one day this week. I am too late in the game to change anything with this batch. The first batch was pretty great...it just wasnt a clone so i am sure this one will be just as awesome! :rockin:

 

[aslander]

I don't think adding the cherries earlier is going to make a huge difference. I would stick to doing it in secondary for cleanliness. You have to remember that time in fermentation equates to lost money for them, so it is in their best interest to speed fermentation and let it age in the bottle. The useful info is the percentages on chocolate malt and cherries!

 

[poptarts]

Yea if we had a percentage of honey we could have a clone.

 

[poptarts]

Added cherries last night, krausen was pretty much fallen. Smelled like alcohol and funk.

 

[seckert]

Added cherries last night, krausen was pretty much fallen. Smelled like alcohol and funk.

I added my cherries as well. last time I made this beer it smelled pretty horrible all during the fermentation process, but it comes out great in the end!