Tri clamp INSIDE fermenter

[kevink]

I only ever sanitize it in StarSan and when done using, after blowing out with an O2 blast, I hold it under my running faucet and rotate it around several times. I then put it in my sanitizer bucket and swish it around and let air dry for a day or so before covering the top with the little ziplock baggie it came in.

Boiling is a more involved process than that? All you do is dunk it in a little pot of boiling water for a few minutes. The point is not to do what is easier, though. The point is to sanitize, and Starsan technically won't sanitize a stone. Why not do it easier and more effectively?

 

[Rev2010]

Boiling is a more involved process than that? All you do is dunk it in a little pot of boiling water for a few minutes. The point is not to do what is easier, though. The point is to sanitize, and Starsan technically won't sanitize a stone. Why not do it easier and more effectively?

If you're simply talking about an O2 wand then yeah it's no more complicated. But we're not just talking about an O2 wand in this thread. In this case we were talking about a fermenter with triclamps inside. How is it just as easy to disassemble all the parts of a fermenter and boil them as opposed to leaving them all connected and in place and simply fill with 5 gallons of water, 1oz of StarSan, put the lid on and airlock in place and swirl it around to coat all surfaces, let sit a couple of minutes then drain? And as I said, and have others, the vast majority of us have just plopped our O2 wands in sanitizer for a few minutes and have done this for years with not a single infection. Why change to boiling it if it's proven to work?


Rev.

 

[kevink]

The only thing that needs to be boiled are the tri clamp clamps since tri clamp clamps are not sanitary parts because of the threads and the hinge. Contact sanitizers should not be used on non-sanitary parts. All of the other parts of the fermenter, if it's decent quality (smooth surfaces, no scratches, deep valleys, grooves, etc.) can be sanitized with a contact sanitizer. There's no need to even fill it. Just put a few cups in and shake it up a few times. That's how I do my conical, but the inside is completely smooth (sanitary), so that's all that's necessary. If it had any kind threads on it, I would have to figure out a way to sanitize with heat. If that were the case, though, I wouldn't have bought it!

The coil needs to come out of that fermenter anyway to sanitize the tri clamp sealing surfaces, so boiling the clamps is virtually no extra work.

This is how I would sanitize that thing:
Remove coil and racking arm and spray sanitizer on all four coil tri clamp sealing surfaces, racking arm tri-clamp sealing surfaces, and lid sealing surfaces.
Dunk tri clamp gaskets and racking arm in Starsan.
Boil clamps for a few minutes to sanitize the threads and hinge.
Reinstall coil and racking arm.
Fill with a few cups of sanitizer.
Install lid.
Shake periodically for a few minutes.
Dump sanitizer.
Fill with wort.

It's not that much more complicated than any other fermenter with tri-clamp fittings. Hopefully the coil does not touch itself anywhere. That would prevent good Starsan contact.

 

[augiedoggy]

There's no way in hell I'm going to trust that Starsan is going to get into every single pore on an O2 stone. You can pretty much guarantee that it will not. Considering the huge amount of time and money put into my batches, I do not take any chances. It takes 10 minutes to boil it.

I get that you dont trust starsan but it wasnt what I was asking..I was asking for the prrof that made you form such a steadfast opinion against it?
I was asking if you've even heard of someone actually infecting their beer by just using starsan to sanitize the o2 stone?

 

[augiedoggy]

Sorry, but I don't see any exposed threads inside my SSB Unitank. And of course all the TC clamps are outside, where they belong.
There is really no reason to place a TC clamp inside a vessel, this is really the stupidest design I've ever come across.

Thats because you have the newer unitank and not their older regular conical fermenter. They have been stepping up the design to compete with other like spike and stout that already offered true sanitary designs from the get go.
Trust me the older SSBT conicals have plenty of non sanitary nooks and crannies and its never caused an issue for the owners short of more work. most dont even disassemble the weldless fittings and clean the threaded fittings between every use.
These TC ferrules will never be an issue as long as the OP keeps them from becoming nasty by cleaning immediately after use and dropping them in some star san right afterwards until they are used again.

 

[augiedoggy]

Unfortunately, to be 100% sure you'd have to take the clamp itself apart, as there are plenty of unreachable spots where crud might accumulate if you just soak it. I don't think you can really do that without destroying the clamp.
Same goes for sanitizing with chemicals. The only way to prevent this from turning into a recurring infection is to boil them each time as heat will reach everywhere.

Realistically this is overkill for this.
If you only knew how many nano breweries have been brewing with plastic conicals that cannot be brought to boiling temps, but instead use alkaline and acid cleaners even with threaded fittings and have no issue because they clean and sanitize immediately after use. it will clean up easily with a sink sprayer if it never gets a chance to dry or get nasty. its still sanitized when you pull it out of the conical after use how will it harbor a source of infection if its sitting , soaking in acid?

Boiling or not all this is going to be a non issue in reality.

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm sure it's possible to not infect a batch with a stone that has been "sanitized" with Starsan. All I'm saying is that contact sanitizers are not able to sanitize non-sanitary parts. Threads, like on the tri-clamp in the photo of the fermenter above, and O2 stones are not sanitary parts. The only way to sanitize non-sanitary parts is to heat them. You may never have any issues using Starsan on a stone, but eventually you may get screwed. At that point, you'll probably start boiling it.

it can sanitize stainless fine unless there is already a buildup of something in those nook and crannies from improper cleaning. and even then if its left in the starsan to soak for days the chances that something would still be alive in the tiney amount of crud would realistically be so small its not a real world concern here. everyone talks of tiny scratches harboring bacteria yet My real world experience tells me theres a lot of overreacting on this forum and much or this concern is not real with common sense taken. do you sanitize every dry hop or fruit you add the the fermenter? some use vodka but many dont and never experience an issue..

 

[kevink]

I get that you dont trust starsan but it wasnt what I was asking..I was asking for the prrof that made you form such a steadfast opinion against it?
I was asking if you've even heard of someone actually infecting their beer by just using starsan to sanitize the o2 stone?

I'm sure if you searched the forum you could find someone, but that's not why I do not use a contact sanitizer on non-sanitary parts. I don't do it because it's technically incorrect and takes no more effort to do it right. I get that a lot of people like to cut corners here, shave a little time off there. It's just not what I'm into. I would be pissed if I lost even 1 out of 100 batches due to something completely stupid and avoidable like this.

 

[kduvey]

Thanks for the discussion guys, feeling better about it now. Actually feeling quite good. I have to admit, I sorta like the ability to take out the coil with no tools.

Sounds like a boil or a bake between brews is all I’ll need. That is no problem at all.

Question, can I boil the tri clamp gaskets as well? Do I need to make sure to get the special high heat ones?

 

[kevink]

it can sanitize stainless fine unless there is already a buildup of something in those nook and crannies from improper cleaning. and even then if its left in the starsan to soak for days the chances that something would still be alive in the tiney amount of crud would realistically be so small its not a real world concern here. everyone talks of tiny scratches harboring bacteria yet My real world experience tells me theres a lot of overreacting on this forum and much or this concern is not real with common sense taken. do you sanitize every dry hop or fruit you add the the fermenter? some use vodka but many dont and never experience an issue..

Did you ever put something into a liquid, be it water or whatever, and see little bubbles where the liquid does not touch the surface? It usually happens where there are grooves, threads, scratches, etc.

 

[kevink]

Thanks for the discussion guys, feeling better about it now. Actually feeling quite good. I have to admit, I sorta like the ability to take out the coil with no tools.

Sounds like a boil or a bake between brews is all I’ll need. That is no problem at all.

Question, can I boil the tri clamp gaskets as well? Do I need to make sure to get the special high heat ones?

Check the heat rating on them, but if they're silicone I think you'll be fine. I have boiled many a gasket and silicone hose and never had a problem.

 

[augiedoggy]

Did you ever put something into a liquid, be it water or whatever, and see little bubbles where the liquid does not touch the surface? It usually happens where there are grooves, threads, scratches, etc.

Yup at that point I give it a couple taps to knock the bubbles loose but since the grooves in question are actually a hinge tht wont even be an issue. They will move and knock loose any bubbles on thier way to the bottom of a bucket.

And absolutely no reason to have to boil the sanitary gaskets.

 

[kevink]

And the male and female threads on the clamps.

 

[SanPancho]

I ordered it from a factory in China, for very cheap

i just posted about this a while back, both here and on aussie hb. Let me know which vendor you used if you would please.

And if nobody noted this yet, id advise you to add some coloring to your glycol so you know if it leaks, especially with clamps in the tank. Something like blue that will be obvious.

 

[augiedoggy]

And the male and female threads on the clamps.

again same as threads on everything else... Ive never had to boil my ball valves or the threaded fittings in the ss brewtech conical.. If I was concerned id take the end off and use a beer line or tap brush on them

 

[Vale71]

Just because you've been lucky so far is no reason to incite others to be careless or scorn those who aren't as careless as you.

 

[Rev2010]

Just because you've been lucky so far is no reason to incite others to be careless or scorn those who aren't as careless as you.

He's not being careless nor is he scorning. He's saying that the vast majority of us never boil parts and never have infections, the proof is there. Kevink keeps insisting that "one day you'll see!". As I said before, I've been brewing 7 years now and never boiled anything other than my kettle, and I was brewing almost every weekend so that a lot of batches. I have never disassembled a single ball valve and leave my SS thermowell and valve in place while cleaning after each fermentation. I've never once had a single infection as I'm very mindful and also sanitize everything that will come into contact with the beer post boil. But we're just butting heads here. We say sanitizer is enough and you guys say boiling is necessary, fine.... but let's not start accusing people of being careless and scorning others, that's hypocritical.


Rev.

 

[augiedoggy]

Just because you've been lucky so far is no reason to incite others to be careless or scorn those who aren't as careless as you.

Im not sure if your refering to me or what? I'm not allowed to answer questions asked of me and have a meaningful conversation here?
I'm pointing out for the sake of what I believe most other home brewers do. (just like what many do with their 02 stones with no issues) again if others are boiling their silicone seals, ball valves and conical weldless fitting between each brew. It would be great to hear from them here? This is a good topic to discuss. Some people might learn they are doing more work for no gain. (and some have their minds made up regardless of the results of actual practice it seems). We know boiling everything between uses will work but if its not needed then whats the harm in sharing that?

I'm also commenting from actual years of practice in this regard vs someones theory.

Theres a lot of misinformation still spread on forums like these from over active and reactive opinions often shared here by some folks who are often so misinformed they go as far as to disassemble the whole system hot side included and clean and sanitize all weldless fitting (and often come here to complain about the weldless fittings failing because they are not designed to be disassembled and reassembled over and over). They dont know because they read here that its a good idea from someone else who did it. Just like I read that squeezing the mash would extract tannins when I first started home brewing and that information was wrong.

I'm just trying to be realistic here no "scorning" intended I know it may come off that way at times but It does feel like every time I share what I do and what works for me I get another theory why someone believes it wont work.. Again after over 5 years of this I dont believe its "luck" as your implying by knocking down my advice. questions were asked and I'm trying to give honest answers and provide my reasoning behind them for the OP to weigh in his decision on what hes going to do between each use with this thing.

In the process of opening my brewpub I visited and spoke with a lot of brewers and I learned that their more than a few beliefs here commonly shared that seem to have have no merit in the nano or pro brewing world. I'm just trying to have a friendly conversation and yes even "debate" about what my thoughts are on this and why.

 

[Dland]

All the back & forth about Starsan vs boiling, just wanted to mention that standard sanitizing practice for cold side gear is PBW or equivalent at or above 160F to clean, then Starsan or similar to sanitize(and perhaps passivate). I know this is standard practice in at least some craft breweries too, I asked a friend who works in one when I needed some sanitation advice. Also pretty much the instructions on the product label, as if anyone ever reads them, haha.

No need to boil unless you have a clogged plate cooler or something. Not only does it take extra time & energy to boil, large vats of boiling water during clean up adds to risk of burns, as solution is often transferred among multiple pieces of equipment during sanitizing process. The static bubbles referred to do not form in pumped PBW process.

Boiling will work however, if that is how one wants to sanitize.

 

[SanPancho]

@kduvey you keeping this supplier a secret?

 

[EnglishAndy]

Sounds like a boil or a bake between brews is all I’ll need. That is no problem at all.

Correct. Just the clamps. It's the only piece of the puzzle that has a thread (and a hinge). I would hope that it's 100% stainless. If you don't know or don't trust it to be SS then buy replacement clamps from a supplier you do trust. They're cheap.

Question, can I boil the tri clamp gaskets as well? Do I need to make sure to get the special high heat ones?

Not required. They're silicone and can be bathed in Starsan before each use, or just leave them in a Starsan bath while they're not in use. Being silicone they are porous and will discolour with each use. I don't tend to use those that come into contact with beer (e.g. the butterfly valve on my system) more than a couple of times before replacing them. You can buy them in packs of 5 on ebay for a few dollars.

This is a strange setup but by no means unworkable. Only the clamps need special attention.

 

[kduvey]

i just posted about this a while back, both here and on aussie hb. Let me know which vendor you used if you would please.

And if nobody noted this yet, id advise you to add some coloring to your glycol so you know if it leaks, especially with clamps in the tank. Something like blue that will be obvious.

hey mate

Wenzhou Yayi Industrial Machinery

While I am happy with the experience dealing with them so far, I have yet receive the fermenter yet. Ill be happy to post some photos and my thoughts when it comes in a few weeks (hopefully...)

 

[augiedoggy]

hey mate

Wenzhou Yayi Industrial Machinery

While I am happy with the experience dealing with them so far, I have yet receive the fermenter yet. Ill be happy to post some photos and my thoughts when it comes in a few weeks (hopefully...)

HMM I wonder if they are the same company as
:WENZHOU DELI MACHINERY EQUIPMENT CO.,LTD
AKA one of stouts main manufacturer and where I bought my 3bbl tanks..

 

[NeoBrew]

Thanks for the discussion guys, feeling better about it now. Actually feeling quite good. I have to admit, I sorta like the ability to take out the coil with no tools.

Sounds like a boil or a bake between brews is all I’ll need. That is no problem at all.

Question, can I boil the tri clamp gaskets as well? Do I need to make sure to get the special high heat ones?

You might also think about an Instant Pot to sanitize them. I have a SS Brewtech Unitank and toss the stone in there for 20 minutes before each use. Intant Pots don't quite get to 15psi which is recommended for sterilization, but it is easier and less management to use that over boiling while I'm getting ready to rack into it.

You can boil the tri-clamp gaskets as long as they are silicone. Some other rubbers might tolerate it too. You would just have to try.

 

[SanPancho]

hey mate

Wenzhou Yayi Industrial Machinery

While I am happy with the experience dealing with them so far, I have yet receive the fermenter yet. Ill be happy to post some photos and my thoughts when it comes in a few weeks (hopefully...)

Ah, got it. I missed the part about you not receiving it yet.

HMM I wonder if they are the same company as
:WENZHOU DELI MACHINERY EQUIPMENT CO.,LTD
AKA one of stouts main manufacturer and where I bought my 3bbl tanks..

Only one way to find out i guess....

 

[crane]

Theres a lot of misinformation still spread on forums like these from over active and reactive opinions often shared here by some folks who are often so misinformed they go as far as to disassemble the whole system hot side included and clean and sanitize all weldless fitting (and often come here to complain about the weldless fittings failing because they are not designed to be disassembled and reassembled over and over). They dont know because they read here that its a good idea from someone else who did it. Just like I read that squeezing the mash would extract tannins when I first started home brewing and that information was wrong.

A common piece of misinformation that I see spread around the homebrewing community is the difference between sanitary and sterile. Often times people get the notion that we must be sterile, when that is not true. All of the brewing literature talks about being sanitary, not sterile. So there is an acceptable amount of contamination/infection that can be present in your beer without it taking over and growing a large enough population to throw off the flavor profile. We as brewers provide an environment where contamination is below 1% through sanitization and we prepare our yeast to rapidly dominate the wort before the small amount of contamination can take over.

Another piece of misinformation is that any amount of contamination at all will result in the beer being noticeably bad. Again, if we provide an environment where the yeast dominate the wort and ferment out quickly, then the contamination may have been too small in cell count to go through enough total metabolic activity to produce even of a particular chemical to cause a noticeable off flavor or other issue in the beer before the yeast consume all of the fermentable sugars.

We are not brewing or fermenting in sterile environments.

There are also plenty of other debatable pieces of brewing equipment when it comes to the sanitation department. I don't bake or boil my plate chiller. I also have a temp sensor an oxygen stone mounted inline at the exit of the chiller. I also stopped disassembling the fittings on my corny kegs as I got sick of leaking kegs and constantly replacing o rings. That was complete overkill. There are tons of people out there who ensist on completely disassembling their kegs every time they clean and sanitize them, while there are plenty of people who side with me on that topic.

 

[kduvey]

Thanks again guys for the discussion. Some good stuff in there.

I’ll be sure to pay it forward with a post about this fermenter when it arrives. I think it will be surprisingly comparable in both material quality and feature set to a SS brewmaster edition or spike conical, but for around 1/3 - 1/4 the cost including shipping from China. Design is a little odd and it’s remains to be seen the build quality, but I’m not scared to modify it a bit if I need to. Could be a good option for others out there as well.

Ps. The factory is finished building it and is shipping today or tomorrow. They sent me a few photos of my actual fermenter. Looks OK to me, looking forward to a close inspection when it arrives. See attached

 

[kevink]

Did they say what pressure it's rated for? It actually looks pretty good! As long as the welds are either mint (which I doubt) or ground and polished, it will be a solid fermenter. If some welds are questionable, you can always smooth and polish them yourself. My Stout needed a little massaging. It's no biggie.

 

[kduvey]

Yep, my thoughts too. I’ve got access to all the tools I may need, if it comes to that. Not scared to cut and weld if I need to.

The factory has assured me the welds inside are ‘sanitary food grade’. No photos though.

No pressure rating, but The factory also explained that theve been experimenting with the lid clamp and this is the newest and best design, and that it seals very well. We shall see about that. However, I’m not intending to pressurise it, at least not yet.

 

[augiedoggy]

Yep, my thoughts too. I’ve got access to all the tools I may need, if it comes to that. Not scared to cut and weld if I need to.

The factory has assured me the welds inside are ‘sanitary food grade’. No photos though.

No pressure rating, but The factory also explained that theve been experimenting with the lid clamp and this is the newest and best design, and that it seals very well. We shall see about that. However, I’m not intending to pressurise it, at least not yet.

I have one with the same type of lid seal its not the exact same fermenter and no coil but very similiar. the lid works very well and seals well but I have the blowoff clog on me once and krausen came pouring out of the seal in one area as pressure built up.

BTW they sent me photos of my stuff from the factory as well.