Training Wheels Berliner - good intro to sours

[Baja_Brewer]

Consider making another starter for the lacto. Ive tried pitching the bit I pulled off from one batch on another like that but the acidity really lacked. Im assuming from the time + storage conditions. When I top off my saved liter with a liter of fresh wort to build up the lacto count the results are more consistent.

Whoops, that's what I meant by build up. My reasoning was that its been in the fridge, but I appreciate your mentioning that restarting the culture improves consistency batch to batch- that's what we're going for!

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Whoops, that's what I meant by build up. My reasoning was that its been in the fridge, but I appreciate your mentioning that restarting the culture improves consistency batch to batch- that's what we're going for!

After reading your post again you were pretty clear.... I just missed it lol.

 

[bruhaha]

KeyWestBrewing you mentioned saving some soured wort to propagate another batch. How would you go about this? Create another starter?

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

KeyWestBrewing you mentioned saving some soured wort to propagate another batch. How would you go about this? Create another starter?

Yea. They need a little longer than a starter from a straight pitch out of the pack though so give it a few days.

 

[Baja_Brewer]

So I got to the starter going a day later than I expected, and I'm making 3 gallons of wort now. I'm going to let it go about 45 hours this time, as I'll pasteurize it Monday AM before work - I'm pretty sure I did ~36 hours last time. After the freeze-concentrating watermelon discussion in this thread I did that for this batch and OMFG... the (3 gallon) keg might not last longer than this weekend. I plan on making a few batches of this back to back, since its the perfect summer beer!

Thinking of doing a Blueberry this round, using chill storage to prevent fermentation of the fruit flavor addition. Anyone have an opinion on my trying to add some of this Ikea Blueberry Syrup (49% juice) to try for flavoring? http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/10296015/

Lastly, for anyone interested - the WLP677 bounced right back in the starter I made after putting a quart up for a month in the fridge (50/50 from the BW & Gose I made the first time around) - by smell, the starter was good to go within 36 hours, but I didn't pitch it until 48+. I'll be storing it that way again next time.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

So I got to the starter going a day later than I expected, and I'm making 3 gallons of wort now. I'm going to let it go about 45 hours this time, as I'll pasteurize it Monday AM before work - I'm pretty sure I did ~36 hours last time. After the freeze-concentrating watermelon discussion in this thread I did that for this batch and OMFG... the (3 gallon) keg might not last longer than this weekend. I plan on making a few batches of this back to back, since its the perfect summer beer!

Thinking of doing a Blueberry this round, using chill storage to prevent fermentation of the fruit flavor addition. Anyone have an opinion on my trying to add some of this Ikea Blueberry Syrup (49% juice) to try for flavoring? http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/10296015/

Lastly, for anyone interested - the WLP677 bounced right back in the starter I made after putting a quart up for a month in the fridge (50/50 from the BW & Gose I made the first time around) - by smell, the starter was good to go within 36 hours, but I didn't pitch it until 48+. I'll be storing it that way again next time.

Haha thats awesome to hear I actually kicked my keg of Watermelon today. That syrup looks interesting though I wonder what else is in it. I'd probably try a 1/3lb fruit per gal in the keg first. If you freeze/smash the berries instead of pureeing them you can probably pull all the flavor and keep them strained so you get clean pints. I don't think blueberries have a lot of water do they?

 

[Baja_Brewer]

3 days at 95*F got me this. Didn't boil for very long, but the fermentation chamber may have caused the infection. Pasteurize and ferment, or dump?

 

[Baja_Brewer]

Whoops, pic attached.

View attachment 1468880713046.jpg

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Pasteurize then sample and decide from there. I would maybe even keep a little unpasteurized in a wine bottle to see if you caught something worth keeping. That pellicle looks like what I got when I stepped up starters from grain.

 

[Baja_Brewer]

I took a gravity sample (which I should have done before posting) and its at 1.006ish - I pulled off a pint or so into a sanitized jar, and I'm pasteurizing at 165 (ethanol boils at 173) and I'll see how it comes out in the next couple of days.

Note to anyone that might be scared off that I cut corners on this batch in my attempt to simplify the process by souring in my un-sealed kettle. The starters were okay - I bet if I had used a sealed, sanitized fermentation vessel for the souring process, everything would have been fine.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

What does it smell like? Whatever you got dried the wort out pretty fast for wild yeast.

 

[Baja_Brewer]

Smells a little sour - a little... bready? Not as sour as the last round, I imagine the fermentation knocked that back. I took another gravity sample this AM and it was more like 1.01 @ 72*F, so I was reading high because it was warmer yesterday. I have it in a keg and I'll see if it comes back with anything, if not I'll let it age a bit.

Very much need to control my process a bit better. If I want to be doing this as single vessel boil/sour/pasturize/ferment, I need to build a heat stick to use in my kegs so that the vessel can be sealed during the non-heating processes.

Guess this means I need to pick up some Omega for souring, since I've tried/liked the WLp677 - I think I'd appreciate being able to use it without turning my fermentation chamber into a sweat lodge.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

The temps and souring speed really make the Omega blend easy to work with. I like that heat stick idea though, pretty crafty.

 

[danszabrew]

Thanks for the recipe! Wish I would have seen this before I brewed a BW last night. I used a 7 day starter of 677 at room temperature and the extract recipe was slightly different. I have the fermentation going on in a bucket in my garage and it has kept the beer over 90 degrees. Last night I checked on it and the airlock was going crazy. It's my first attempt at a sour so I don't expect too much from this...

I have a few questions regarding your recipe/setup.. first, where did you purchase your Omega yeast? What do you use to ferment 3 gallon batches? Do you have a 3 gallon carboy?

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I have a few questions regarding your recipe/setup.. first, where did you purchase your Omega yeast? What do you use to ferment 3 gallon batches? Do you have a 3 gallon carboy?

I got the lacto from Ritebrew.com but it looks like they're out of stock. I'm not positive but I think there's another smaller vendor that carries it. Might take a little googling to find.
I do ~5.25 gal batches so I can save some lacto and still get 5gal into the keg. The main thing is filling your fermentor completely and leaving as little headspace as possible.
Are you using mini kegs by any chance?

 

[danszabrew]

Yeah I found another vendor i was just curious where you got yours. I thought I read that you were doing 3 gallon batches my bad.. Im still using 5 gallon kegs I've never had any mini kegs.

I plan on trying this recipe sometime within the next month. When i do ill document the whole process with pics.. You know.. For science

Thanks again for the recipe man

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Yeah I found another vendor i was just curious where you got yours. I thought I read that you were doing 3 gallon batches my bad.. Im still using 5 gallon kegs I've never had any mini kegs.

I plan on trying this recipe sometime within the next month. When i do ill document the whole process with pics.. You know.. For science

Thanks again for the recipe man

No worries you mentioned 3 gal batches so I thought maybe you were using mini kegs. I asked because I came up with an improved method for those willing to sour in a corny.

 

[Baja_Brewer]

No worries you mentioned 3 gal batches so I thought maybe you were using mini kegs. I asked because I came up with an improved method for those willing to sour in a corny.

Do tell!

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I noticed that 3 days is about how long it takes to get the sourness I like but with each day the headspace in the carboy gets a little bigger. Not a big deal but I get some very subtle funk. So I took some of the cold side aeration tricks floating around and applied them to the souring process. It should work with a lot of people's set up if you have a kettle with a spigot and a way to rest the kettle above a keg.
Fill your keg with sanitizer and use co2 to empty the keg. Connect a QD to the liquid out post on the corny keg and hose clamp the other end of the tubing to the spigot on the kettle. Add a gas QD to the keg with the other end of the tubing sitting in sanitizer. Carefully add your lacto starter to the kettle and open the spigot. That's all there is to it. You end up with a 100% filled keg, completely purged and sealed. No leaks, no growing headspace, nada. So far I've only done this once but it was really easy and the results were extremely clean. It's a definite improvement for quick souring beers. Here's a pic...

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1471004109.430490.jpg

 

[danszabrew]

That looks awesome good idea! Will have to try that next batch.

One more bw related question.. I pitched 677 in my bw on Wednesday night and kept the temperature at 90-100 the last 2 days. The 677 gave a 2-3 inch thick kraussen Wednesday into Thursday and subsided last night. Checked ph last night and it was still around 6.. Do I just need to wait longer?

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Im unfamiliar with 677 but I'd think it should have dropped the ph lower than that by now if the lacto is working its magic. I know @BajaBrewer made this using 677 and mentioned getting good results in ~36 hours. Im wondering if you didn't get much growth in the starter since it was at room temp, resulting in a low pitch count. Maybe try leaving it a couple more days in the 90s to see if you get anywhere.

 

[danszabrew]

Okay thanks! Sorry to hijack the thread

 

[Masterofgravity]

How long do you guys leave this beer on fruit before kegging/bottling? I split mine half on raspberries half on peaches two weeks ago and I'm getting antsy.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

How long do you guys leave this beer on fruit before kegging/bottling? I split mine half on raspberries half on peaches two weeks ago and I'm getting antsy.

I add the fruit to the keg. As for time it sort of depends on the fruit and what your after. 2-5 days is normally what I do but I've left fruit in there until the keg kicks too.

 

[danszabrew]

Wanted to post an update..
Started the sour culture (2L) at 1.040 on 8/17 - Pitched the OYL at 95 and kept it in my garage. Temperature stayed above 86 in the flask for 2 days.
On the 3rd day he rose again from the dead
No really.. on the 3rd day I brewed the 4# of DME and pitched the lacto culture ( I ended up with 1.035 OG)
Lots of really cool activity a few hours later.. almost looked like it was swirling in the carboy
On 8/21 prior to pasteurizing I took a 2k flask of the soured wort. I basically took the last 2L from the carboy.. it was almost all lacto - awesome!
I took the Lacto and sanitized 4 mason jars and added some preservative free apple juice for the lacto to eat once I wake them up.

After that, I pasteurized and cooled to 65.. Pitched White labs German Kolsch yeast made from a 1L starter

Took gravity reading and sample last night
I've been checking on the fermentation and this yeast produced 0 kraussen but plenty of activity for a 1.035 OG
Gravity was 1.010 already
Sample was great! I had this side by side with Victory's Elderweisse and the color was almost dead on. Obviously the Elderweisse has a more complex flavor but this is a plain jane berliner right now.
PH is 3.34

I found a cool site that had all kinds of syrup recipes.. my wife likes peach so I made a peach syrup.. looking forward to trying it once I hit below 1.009


Thanks again KeyWestBrewing.. awesome recipe already. I ordered more DME already for the next batchView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1472061035.148185.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1472061052.466657.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1472061074.039772.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1472061085.288729.jpg

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Glad to hear your enjoying the results!

 

[danszabrew]

Made 2nd batch.. I'm looking to copy your watermelon idea..
This is what I did, correct me if i'm wrong:
I juiced an entire watermelon, froze the juice in 2 gallon ziplock bags
I took them out after several hours of freezing and separated the juice from the ice
I repeated this one more time and took the "water" out again

Now I'm left with a small mason jar of really concentrated watermelon juice.
Did you just add this whole jar to the carboy/keg after fermentation is complete?

Thanks again for the recipe man

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Add it to the keg

 

[NickersonC]

Hello all,

Very excited to try this simple recipe. I have all of the necessary ingredients, and am currently waiting on my OYL-605 starter to finish up. I'm about a day in, and I can't lie I cant see much going on in there. I had ordered my 605 online, and when it arrived already pretty warm I had refrigerated it for a few days. On starter day, I took that and a silly can of one of those canned worts, that I happened upon through some Northern Brewer deal I think, out of the fridge. I let them warm up to about room temp, maybe still a little cooler, and proceeded with the direction on the can, which were to combine the can with 16oz water (I also used slightly cooler water than room temp) and add the yeast. As of now, about 24 hrs later, I don't see much going on other than the wort being maybe slightly cloudier. I have been swirling the flask around periodically since. I am totally unfamiliar with making starters out of souring bacteria so I just don't know if that is normal. My thermostat reads 70 fahrenheit as of now, so I don't believe that to be an issue.

Maybe I dont have a problem, but I just figured I'd check in since it doesn't have much visible difference to it like a normal yeast starter, and like I said I'm totally new. Thanks in advance. If anyone has a picture of their OYL-605 starter or something similar that would be helpful.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Hello all,

Very excited to try this simple recipe. I have all of the necessary ingredients, and am currently waiting on my OYL-605 starter to finish up. I'm about a day in, and I can't lie I cant see much going on in there. I had ordered my 605 online, and when it arrived already pretty warm I had refrigerated it for a few days. On starter day, I took that and a silly can of one of those canned worts, that I happened upon through some Northern Brewer deal I think, out of the fridge. I let them warm up to about room temp, maybe still a little cooler, and proceeded with the direction on the can, which were to combine the can with 16oz water (I also used slightly cooler water than room temp) and add the yeast. As of now, about 24 hrs later, I don't see much going on other than the wort being maybe slightly cloudier. I have been swirling the flask around periodically since. I am totally unfamiliar with making starters out of souring bacteria so I just don't know if that is normal. My thermostat reads 70 fahrenheit as of now, so I don't believe that to be an issue.

Maybe I dont have a problem, but I just figured I'd check in since it doesn't have much visible difference to it like a normal yeast starter, and like I said I'm totally new. Thanks in advance. If anyone has a picture of their OYL-605 starter or something similar that would be helpful.

Steps 1 and 2...

I recently whipped up a few batches of this and it was so ridiculously easy I had to post it up. If you've never messed with sours I think this is a good way to get your feet wet because the process is very simple. This won't make the most complex Berliner in the world but I've found its a great base for Florida Weisse and the turnaround is extremely fast. The color is a touch darker than the style guidelines but thats compensated for in convenience.







Grain Bill



4# Bavarian Wheat DME







The Process



1) Use the Bavarian Wheat DME to make a 100g/1L starter for the Omega lacto blend 24-48 hours before brewday. No stir plate, put on an airlock and just leave it alone. Anywhere between 70-90f is fine.



2) Brewday - heat 6gal water to 200f, add DME and stir until its all dissolved. Thats it! Cool the batch down to 90f, rack to fermenter and pitch 1L lacto starter.



*Very Important - you need to be very careful not to oxygenate the wort or this could ruin the beer. To limit oxygen exposure use a smaller fermenter, or up the batch size, so that the fermenter is filled completely full leaving only about an inch of headspace between the wort and airlock. OYL605 doesn't krausen....

Your not really going to see any activity but the lacto is working. Though now that you swirled the starter around that aeration could make it get funky. If it doesn't your in the clear but if it does you might have to try and use a small portion of that starter to propagate another one and restart the process of growing the lacto count up again. This process is very sensitive and a little air can make a night and day difference in the final results. As long as you follow the steps exactly as I outlined them in the first post you'll be good.