TOSNA nutrient sequencing

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

NeverDie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
1,432
Reaction score
405
Location
Austin
Using the TOSNA calculator https://www.meadmakr.com/batch-buildr/

it outputs the following sequencing instructions, which seems backward to me:

Fermaid K / Fermaid O / DAP Nutrient Protocol
The total amount of Fermaid O, Fermaid K, and DAP that will be added to your must are 1.7g, 1.9g, and 3.4g, respectively. The nutrients will be divided into 4 staggered nutrient additions. To avoid mead eruption accidents, degas must and dissolve yeast nutrient doses in 1 cup must prior to adding to the fermenter.
At 24 and 48 hours after you pitch your yeast, add 0.85g Fermaid O to your must.
At 72 hours after you pitch your yeast, add 0.95g Fermaid K and 1.7g DAP to your must.
When the must reaches the 1/3 sugar break (1/3 of all available sugars are consumed, i.e. 1.120 starting gravity reaches 1.080 or 21 Brix reaches 14 Brix), but no later than 7 days after yeast pitch, add the last dose of 0.95g of Fermaid K and 1.7g of DAP.
If mead starts to show signs of yeast stress from low nutrients after last nutrient dose (evidenced by sulfur smells), add 0.85g Fermaid O as needed to supplement for a high nutrient requirement yeast.​

It sequences Fermaid-O first, then later Fermaid K and DAP. But Fermaid K is supposed to have micronutrients, so shouldn't it go first? Also, I've read that 1. DAP promotes yeast cell reproduction more than Fermaid-O does and 2. as specific gravity drops, the yeast cells eventually can no longer process DAP but can still process Fermaid-O. So, therefore, wouldn't it make more sense to sequence Fermaid-O last?
 
Last edited:

Miraculix

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
5,785
Reaction score
4,308
Location
Bremen
Just based on what I've read and what braye recommends, I would also not use dap at all and stick to rehydrating with go ferm and from there on only fermaid o.

Fermaid k is in his bomm to compensate for a lack of micronutrients due to the fact the the preferred yeast there is liquid and therefore not rehydrated with go ferm, which would provide those nutrients. Also, dry yeasts can already be loaded, which is not the case with liquid yeast, afaiu.
 

loveofrose

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2013
Messages
1,472
Reaction score
710
Location
Dallas, Texas
You didn’t use the TOSNA calculator. You used Travis Blount Elliot’s method. You have to check the TOSNA circle.
 
OP
OP
NeverDie

NeverDie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
1,432
Reaction score
405
Location
Austin
The trouble I'm having with both the meadmaderight calculator and the batchbuilder calculator is that both assume GoFerm. I'm trying to use the calculator to calculate for a liquid yeast, namely Omega's Hornindal. So, should I use GoFerm anyway, even with a liquid yeast? Does the calculator rely on the GoFerm for providing micronuetrients? In the case of the TOSNA protocol, it calls for only GoFerm and Fermaid-O. So, if GoFerm isn't used because Hornindal is a liquid yeast, would Hornindal get adequate micronutrients from the Fermaid-O alone? Or, does something else need to be substituted for the GoFerm in order to get adequate micronutrients to the Hornindal?

Another thing about Hornindal: it ferments so fast that the TOSNA protocol which calls for adding nutrients 24, 48, and 72 hours after pitching seems out-of-sync with reality. For instance, I'm finding that within roughly 48 hours of pitching Hornindal with 1.105OG and fermentation temperature of 95F, the SG has already dropped past the second sugar break (which is nominally 1.035SG).
 

RPh_Guy

Bringing Sour Back
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
9,256
Reaction score
7,651
Location
Cleveland
Does the calculator rely on the GoFerm for providing micronutrients?
Yes. Go-Ferm adds nitrogen, zinc, and manganese for example. It's possible (likely) that liquid yeast would also benefit from some Go-Ferm or Wyeast nutrient (which also contains zinc).
Another thing about Hornindal: it ferments so fast that the TOSNA protocol which calls for adding nutrients 24, 48, and 72 hours after pitching seems out-of-sync with reality.
That's exactly what I said on your other thread. The timing needs adjusted.
 

Miraculix

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
5,785
Reaction score
4,308
Location
Bremen
Yes. Go-Ferm adds nitrogen, zinc, and manganese for example. It's possible (likely) that liquid yeast would also benefit from some Go-Ferm or Wyeast nutrient (which also contains zinc).

That's exactly what I said on your other thread. The timing needs adjusted.

Or a bit of Fermaid-k at the first addition, just as suggested within the BOMM protocol.
 

loveofrose

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2013
Messages
1,472
Reaction score
710
Location
Dallas, Texas
The trouble I'm having with both the meadmaderight calculator and the batchbuilder calculator is that both assume GoFerm.

It is for this reason that I developed my liquid yeast protocol here: https://denardbrewing.com/blog/post/Liquid-yeast-SNA/

I use Fermaid K in place of GoFerm to provide trace nutrients and vitamins. It works for all liquid yeast including Kviek.

For high temperature Kviek, you can add all upfront for the gravities you are working with. Those yeast really take off too fast to stagger at high temperatures.
 

RPh_Guy

Bringing Sour Back
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
9,256
Reaction score
7,651
Location
Cleveland
It is for this reason that I developed my liquid yeast protocol here: https://denardbrewing.com/blog/post/Liquid-yeast-SNA/

I use Fermaid K in place of GoFerm to provide trace nutrients and vitamins. It works for all liquid yeast including Kviek.

For high temperature Kviek, you can add all upfront for the gravities you are working with. Those yeast really take off too fast to stagger at high temperatures.
Can you really say that Fermaid K provides the same nutrients as Go-Ferm?
AFAIK Fermaid K doesn't provide necessary zinc or manganese.

I believe the liquid yeast variability is due to the lack of GoFerm to add trace vitamins, lipids, and minerals; however, adding GoFerm to liquid yeasts doesn't make sense because the yeasts are already hydrated. Fermaid K also provides trace minerals, lipids, and vitamins and is designed for rehydrated yeast. So here I suggest the addition of Fermaid K to supplement Fermaid O.
I don't know why adding Go-Ferm to a liquid yeast would be harmful. ??

The point of adding Go-Ferm during rehydration is so that the pitched yeast has exclusive access to the nutrients, rather than all the microbes in the must having access.
 
OP
OP
NeverDie

NeverDie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
1,432
Reaction score
405
Location
Austin
Can you really say that Fermaid K provides the same nutrients as Go-Ferm?
AFAIK Fermaid K doesn't provide necessary zinc or manganese.
Good catch. Those aren't listed:
"Fermaid K™ supplements a series of important nutrients and bio-factors. They are: • Di-Ammonium phosphate • Magnesium sulfate • Inactivated yeast • Thiamine, niacin, folic acid and calcium pantothenate"​
https://catalogapp.lallemandwine.co.../1b340d1ae3fc0a693339355555cdfcfa4971a1e4.pdf
Or, are zinc et al found in and available from the "inactivated yeast"?

Or, does that leave us with the wyeast wine nutrient blend (you mentioned earlier) as the mystery blend of choice? Does it have all the good stuff needed for optimal yeast health? At least for Wyeast Sweet Mead, wyeast says, "Use of Wyeast Wine Nutrient Blend is recommended." http://www.wyeastlab.com/yeast-strain/sweet-mead

Or, use GoFerm after all?
 
Last edited:

RPh_Guy

Bringing Sour Back
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
9,256
Reaction score
7,651
Location
Cleveland
Good catch. [...]
Or, are zinc et al found in and available from the "inactivated yeast"?

Or, does that leave us with the wyeast wine nutrient blend (you mentioned earlier) as the mystery blend of choice? Does it have all the good stuff needed for optimal yeast health?

Or, use GoFerm after all?
If you've been using Bray's SNA protocol and it's not working (or TOSNA sans Go-Ferm), yeah I'd suggest using Go-Ferm or Wyeast nutrient. ... Add it at the beginning, in addition to the rest of the protocol.

I believe if either Fermaid product did provide these trace minerals in significant amounts, Scott Labs would say so.
Scott Labs makes products geared toward wine, where wild microbes in the must are very common. The whole concept behind Go-Ferm/Fermaid makes sense to me: Provide the best nutrients for your pitched yeast and then supplement nitrogen as needed, without having to worry about over-mineralization.
 
OP
OP
NeverDie

NeverDie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
1,432
Reaction score
405
Location
Austin
Good catch. Those aren't listed:
"Fermaid K™ supplements a series of important nutrients and bio-factors. They are: • Di-Ammonium phosphate • Magnesium sulfate • Inactivated yeast • Thiamine, niacin, folic acid and calcium pantothenate"​
https://catalogapp.lallemandwine.co.../1b340d1ae3fc0a693339355555cdfcfa4971a1e4.pdf
Or, are zinc et al found in and available from the "inactivated yeast"?

I suppose if the inactivated yeast is servomomyces, then that could be the otherwise missing zinc source: https://www.whitelabs.com/other-products/servomyces
 
OP
OP
NeverDie

NeverDie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
1,432
Reaction score
405
Location
Austin
For high temperature Kviek, you can add all upfront for the gravities you are working with.

You said the magic words. :) If there's no downside (?), then being able to add everything upfront greatly reduces the hassle.
 

RPh_Guy

Bringing Sour Back
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
9,256
Reaction score
7,651
Location
Cleveland
I suppose if the inactivated yeast is servomomyces, then that could be the otherwise missing zinc source: https://www.whitelabs.com/other-products/servomyces
I'm not sure what you're asking?
Servo has added zinc. You could use Servo in your protocol as the zinc source but the packaging is not convenient for small batches.

"Servomyces is a natural zinc enriched single-strain brewing yeast"
 
OP
OP
NeverDie

NeverDie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
1,432
Reaction score
405
Location
Austin
I'm not sure what you're asking?
Servo has added zinc. You could use Servo in your protocol as the zinc source but the packaging is not convenient for small batches.

"Servomyces is a natural zinc enriched single-strain brewing yeast"

I'll clarify what I was trying to say. Earlier you were saying that there's no zinc in Fermaid K, and that if there were the manufacturer would probably say so. I was simply saying that if the "inactivated yeast" that is listed as one of the ingredients of Fermaid K (see above) happens to be Servomyces, then Fermaid K actually does contain a zinc source, even if it isn't explicitly listed as a zinc source per se. Unfortunately, that mere possibility doesn't provide certainty one way or the other, but maybe the manufacturer would say if asked--and now there's a reason to ask. Or, maybe someone reading this already happens to know and can enlighten us.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
NeverDie

NeverDie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
1,432
Reaction score
405
Location
Austin
To better decide this, this morning I started a small Hornindal test batch using Wyeast Wine Nutrient Blend instead of Fermaid K. This time around I will also use only Fermaid O and no DAP (aside from the very small amount that's part of the wyeast nutrient blend). If there's interest I can post how it compares after it has finished fermenting.

By the way, the Fermaid O that I have is apparently somehow generic. It says it was manufactured by Austin HomeBrew Supply, which is also where I purchased it from. It costs quite a bit less than the name brand stuff, and I wonder now whether or not it is equally as good. Are most people here using generic Fermaid-O, or are you using name brand?
 

MiBeerMan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2018
Messages
83
Reaction score
10
Location
Northern Michigan
I just started a peach mead yesterday and did the go ferm and am following tosna but if you go to Scott labs website it says to add fermaid o only in 2 doses. But tosna says do 4. But I have another question. Do you degas before or after the nutrient addition or does it matter
 
OP
OP
NeverDie

NeverDie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
1,432
Reaction score
405
Location
Austin
I just started a peach mead yesterday and did the go ferm and am following tosna but if you go to Scott labs website it says to add fermaid o only in 2 doses. But tosna says do 4. But I have another question. Do you degas before or after the nutrient addition or does it matter
Degass before unless you want to risk a geyser.
 

MiBeerMan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2018
Messages
83
Reaction score
10
Location
Northern Michigan
I'm fermenting a one gallon batch in a two gallon bucket so it wasn't a big deal as far as the geyser part goes.
 
OP
OP
NeverDie

NeverDie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
1,432
Reaction score
405
Location
Austin
At least so far what I've noticed is that the wyeast plus Fermaid-O combination isn't as foamy and doesn't produce a monster Krausen the way the Fermaid-K plus DAP did. I suspect that's due more to the Fermaid-O than the wyeast? Regardless, it passed its first sugar break and is progressing.
 

MiBeerMan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2018
Messages
83
Reaction score
10
Location
Northern Michigan
so im guessing this will be a dumb question but can you use tosna with ciders or is it just mainly for meads. im about to make another cider this weekend and would like to try using go ferm and fermaid O.
 
OP
OP
NeverDie

NeverDie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
1,432
Reaction score
405
Location
Austin
so im guessing this will be a dumb question but can you use tosna with ciders or is it just mainly for meads. im about to make another cider this weekend and would like to try using go ferm and fermaid O.
AFAIK, yes. TOSNA just spreads out some of the nutrient additions.
 

Maylar

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jun 21, 2014
Messages
4,561
Reaction score
1,780
Location
New Haven County
so im guessing this will be a dumb question but can you use tosna with ciders or is it just mainly for meads. im about to make another cider this weekend and would like to try using go ferm and fermaid O.

With low gravity musts like cider, there's no advantage to SNA. One nutrient addition up front is all you need. And apples have some of the minerals that yeast need, so you can use less than with mead and skip the Go Ferm. For my ciders I use either Fermaid K or generic yeast nutrient. I do rehydrate the yeast however, though I will admit to having just sprinkled it on top on occasion.
 

Redeemer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2019
Messages
135
Reaction score
43
To better decide this, this morning I started a small Hornindal test batch using Wyeast Wine Nutrient Blend instead of Fermaid K. This time around I will also use only Fermaid O and no DAP (aside from the very small amount that's part of the wyeast nutrient blend). If there's interest I can post how it compares after it has finished fermenting.

By the way, the Fermaid O that I have is apparently somehow generic. It says it was manufactured by Austin HomeBrew Supply, which is also where I purchased it from. It costs quite a bit less than the name brand stuff, and I wonder now whether or not it is equally as good. Are most people here using generic Fermaid-O, or are you using name brand?
I will pick some up next time I'm in town and do a comparison of branded Fermaid O for a couple of one gallon batches. It would be nice to compare notes.
 
Top