Too many hops?

[theheadonthedoor]

I can't find a whole lot on triple ipas, but I am curious to see what is the maximum amount of hops someone has used in a 5 gallon batch with good results. I've made some ipas and doubles with over a lb of hops, but I am looking to do a triple ipa with about 2 lbs, and should clock in around 11%.

The normal suspects at play here for hops:

Bittering with hopshot
Columbus
Simcoe
Amarillo
Citra
Centennial
Nelson Sauvin

All pellet if I can.

Any advice would help.

 

[dobe12]

2lbs of hops in a 5 gallon batch is kind of ridiculous. You reach a point with IBUs and even flavor/aroma additions where you're using more than you could possibly taste. You're basically throwing away good hops.

EDIT: But hey, it's your beer. Brew what you want.

 

[theheadonthedoor]

Do you think that a 6 oz dry hop and 13 oz dry hop basically come up with the same results?

 

[dobe12]

Do you think that a 6 oz dry hop and 13 oz dry hop basically come up with the same results?

I think they would be very similar. I do think you would taste the difference, but not enough to justify using an extra 7oz of hops and spending the extra $14-21. Just my opinion though. Maybe you'd be able to notice the difference to justify it. Your beer, your call.

 

[dobe12]

I also don't brew beers that cost $80. I can brew a damn good IPA for under $20.

 

[WayFrae]

I think this sounds awesome! I have also heard that there is a point where you can use more hops than you can taste but I have no personal experience with it. I think if you were to use a 13 oz dry hop that it would be best to use like 4 oz for X amount of days and then remove the hop bag and do it again 2 more times with 5 oz in the last dry hop period. It seems to me that the majority of the 13 oz would remain untouched in the beer if dry hopped all at once.

 

[m1k3]

I've use 10oz in the kettle + 8oz of dry hops in 5 gallons and I thought it was too much.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.24 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.24 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 6.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 6.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.058 SG
Estimated Color: 6.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 195.5 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 56.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 56.0 %
Boil Time: 65 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
16 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 93.4 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 15L (15.0 SRM) Grain 2 5.8 %
2.0 oz Caramel Malt - 40L (Briess) (40.0 SRM) Grain 3 0.7 %
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [15.00 %] - Boil 65. Hop 4 61.6 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [10.90 %] - Boil 31.0 min Hop 5 28.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [15.00 %] - Boil 29. Hop 6 31.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 25.0 min Hop 7 21.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [15.00 %] - Boil 20. Hop 8 20.7 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [10.90 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 9 11.9 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [13.90 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 10 11.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 11 8.9 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [13.90 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 12 0.0 IBUs
2.0 pkg Nottingham Yeast (Lallemand #-) [23.66 m Yeast 13 -
2.00 oz Centennial [10.90 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [15.00 %] - Dry Hop Hop 15 0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [13.90 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 16 0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 17 0.0 IBUs


I have never gone this crazy since and I have made better IPAs.

Also, the wort lost is ridiculous.

 

[JKaranka]

2lb of copper and dry hops is a 1860s hopping rate, so it's not like it's not been done before!

 

[dobe12]

No idea what "2lbs of copper" refers to. Please explain.


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[m1k3]

Copper is the old timey name for kettle.... since the kettle was made out of copper.

I still add my hops in the copper.

 

[BrewWNC]

I agree tha 2lbs seems ridiculous in a 5 gallon batch. I'm not saying don't try it. I think you should. I just don't think it's necessary and that you will be essentially wasting hops.

If you do the 2 lbs let us know how it turns out.

 

[m1k3]

2lb of copper and dry hops is a 1860s hopping rate, so it's not like it's not been done before!

They were not using 15%AA Citra and Simcoe.... you must admit.

 

[JDesquire]

I just put 16 oz of various aroma hops for dry hopping in my maharaja clone which has been fermenting for over 3 weeks (meant to start dry hopping 10 days ago, but it was still actively fermenting and getting bubbles all the way until yesterday).

Question for the forum: last time I dry hopped with this much hops I put them all directly in fermenter and it was a pain to bottle because so much of the hop pellets kept getting clogged in bottling wand. As a result, this time I boiled a few mesh hop bags in boiling water for ten minutes (to sanitize) then put the hops in these bags and then added to fermenter. I'm planning on dry hopping for 7 days like this then bottling. Has anyone used mesh bags like this before? How did batch turn out? Any issues or off flavors?


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[DSorenson]

I used 14 ounces of french strisselspalt in a barleywine I brewed recently. I nearly cried at how much beer I lost to those damned thieving hop pellets. I have a gallon of space taken up in my primary with green hop debris.

Also for what it's worth: I've never had a triple IPA that was ever worth a damn. sugary sweet, like a failed barleywine with an imperial IPA hop component. They are an abomination to me. I sincerely wish you luck.

To be honest, the best thing you can do is select the highest alpha acid hops you can and do the best you can with less hops. I don't want your eyes to well up the way mine did.

 

[BUCKNUTS]

I can't find a whole lot on triple ipas, but I am curious to see what is the maximum amount of hops someone has used in a 5 gallon batch with good results. I've made some ipas and doubles with over a lb of hops, but I am looking to do a triple ipa with about 2 lbs, and should clock in around 11%.

The normal suspects at play here for hops:

Bittering with hopshot
Columbus
Simcoe
Amarillo
Citra
Centennial
Nelson Sauvin

All pellet if I can.

Any advice would help.

Most I have used is 18 oz in a 6 gallon batch of ipa and it was amazing and yes it was pretty expensive. I've had a lot of people's ipa brewed with 6 oz of hops that they claimed were great and none of them were very good ipa. I think my typical 6 gallon ipa has 10oz of hops between boil and dry hops. I've brerwed 50 ipas and tried every technique including hop stands, double dry hopping, whirlpooling, first wort hopping and combinations of all of them. You name it I've tried it and in my experience no way are you making a commercial quality ipa for a hop head with a couple oz of hops. 2lb is extreme though you can make a great ipa with half that. what in the world is a triple ipa? sounds like marketing hype to me.

 

[theheadonthedoor]

Triple IPAs are above like 10%, or at least to what I am reading here and online. Obviously some doubles boast that abv so it's hard to know the cutoff.

Greenflash makes Green Bullet, a fantastic triple IPA brewed with just Green Bullet hops. Also Pliny the Younger is often referred to as a triple ipa.

The best one I've had is Notorious by Boneyard.

And for those who have attempted such a monster, what are some reasons you believe that it didn't go so well?

 

[DSorenson]

The real question is:

What makes a Triple IPA stats any different than Sierra Nevada's BigFoot?

 

[theheadonthedoor]

Oh... ummm... well that is a good question. I would assume the line is thin. They have all seemed much dryer with a much more hop forward character. Not that Bigfoot isn't hop forward since it is 100+ ibus, but there is definitely a lot of crystal malts and alcohol tinge to it. Not that I expect there to be zero alcohol perceived, but the commercial examples I spoke of before have pretty much no hint to such an abv. The recipe I am working on has no crystal, mash at 147, and an srm of 5. I would say those things might set it apart, but then again, molotov cocktail triple ipa tastes just like a barleywine so who knows...

 

[BUCKNUTS]

The recipe I am working on has no crystal, mash at 147, and an srm of 5. I would say those things might set it apart, but then again, molotov cocktail triple ipa tastes just like a barleywine so who knows...

That should be a monster. I love hops and I love brewing extreme ipas but 2lbs of hops no crystal at all and a mash temp that low is really pushing the limits. I brewed Vinnie from Russian River Pliny clone which calls 3.5oz of CTZ for 90 minutes as my first extreme ipa, its a beast and it uses less than a pound in total and has something in the neighborhood of 10% crystal malt. You could do 2 batches of ipa that are over the top with that amount of hops.


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[DSorenson]

Honestly, I think not using crystal/cara is a good idea. The beer will be sweet anyway, since I don't think any yeast is going to attenuate enough of the sugars. You could use rice to dry out the body. If you are looking for the alcohol content of a barleywine, but the body and IBUs of an imperial IPA, then I would recommend rice for a significant contribution.

It's going to be tough to keep it from being boozy. And considering you will want to drink it young, that means you don't have time to age it. Most of the time a bigger malt flavor helps to meld a hotter beer together. Think of a belgian triple and an imperial stout. Imperial stouts never seem as boozy.

Also I'm sure I don't really have to say it here... but yeast selection is huge

 

[billl]

First, there is no such thing as a triple IPA. Don't believe the hype.

There is also a definite limit on how much bitterness humans can taste as well as isomerization rates. You just max out and don't get anything else except wet hops.

There is also a limit on taste thresholds for flavors. Where that is varies by individual, but I'd be absolutely shocked if even 1% of the population could tell a 15oz hop beer vs a 1lb hop beer. By that point, you are at such diminishing returns that it just doesn't matter.

If you want a hop punch to the face, you need to look at the malt side as well. Cut out the crystal. Add some simple sugar to lighten the body and dry it out. That will do more to enhance hop perception that just dumping in more hops.

 

[seabass07]

Forget the rice. Just mash fairly low and use a yeast that can handle the alcohol. Attenuation will be fine. Ferment fairly low and when it's near FG let it ramp up a bit to speed up the yeast cleaning up. Treat it like a barleywine that you don't want to age. As for the 2lbs, I've used that much in IPA's before. The amount of beer you lose is huge. I'd rather not do that with such a high gravity beer. Just my opinion. The most recent one was an IPA with 25oz total. It came out very good, but in a 6gal batch, I ended up with only 4.5gal. You can help with that by straining out the kettle hops with a fine grain bag, but all of those dry hops are just going to soak up beer and make it inaccessible. About 3qts of my IPA was just liquidy hops that refused to compact down after cold crashing. I could have gotten another half gallon otherwise.

 

[seabass07]

First, there is no such thing as a triple IPA. Don't believe the hype.

There is also a definite limit on how much bitterness humans can taste as well as isomerization rates. You just max out and don't get anything else except wet hops.

There is also a limit on taste thresholds for flavors. Where that is varies by individual, but I'd be absolutely shocked if even 1% of the population could tell a 15oz hop beer vs a 1lb hop beer. By that point, you are at such diminishing returns that it just doesn't matter.

If you want a hop punch to the face, you need to look at the malt side as well. Cut out the crystal. Add some simple sugar to lighten the body and dry it out. That will do more to enhance hop perception that just dumping in more hops.

Yes, the triple IPA is made up. It's basically a ridiculously hopped barleywine. Comparing a 15oz hopped beer to a 16oz hopped beer is silly. Comparing a 1lb hopped beer to a 2lbs hopped beer will be more noticeable. Don't knock it til you try it. It's not about IBU's. It's about flavor and aroma. When you realize you have a freezer full of hops that are starting to get old, you start to do ridiculous things. The ridiculously excessive hops can be very good if done right.

 

[TheCanisDirus]

Another vote for less. As mentioned it's diminishing returns and you'll loose way too much wort/beer.

For really hoppy IPA/IIPAs i tend to stick to 8-14oz max. Just personal preference after trial and error.

The other thing i'd recommend is using a hopshot (one syringe is about 50-60IBU for ~5gals) if you're going for a big bitter IIPA. Check the official straight from Lagunitas Hop Stoopid recipe for reference on a VERY hoppy (and damn tasty) beer.


All-Grain
At 70% efficiency
90 minute boil
OG 1.074

14 lbs 2 row
.5 lb Briess Victory
1 oz Nugget at 90 minutes
5.5 ml Hopshot at 60 minutes
0.65 oz Cascade and 0.65 Chinook at 12 min
1.3 oz Simcoe at flameout, wait 10 min before chilling
Pitch yeast starter of y1028 London Ale

Dry Hop
.77 oz chinook
1.5 oz simcoe
3 oz columbus

 

[WayFrae]

First, there is no such thing as a triple IPA. Don't believe the hype.

There is also a definite limit on how much bitterness humans can taste as well as isomerization rates. You just max out and don't get anything else except wet hops.

There is also a limit on taste thresholds for flavors. Where that is varies by individual, but I'd be absolutely shocked if even 1% of the population could tell a 15oz hop beer vs a 1lb hop beer. By that point, you are at such diminishing returns that it just doesn't matter.

If you want a hop punch to the face, you need to look at the malt side as well. Cut out the crystal. Add some simple sugar to lighten the body and dry it out. That will do more to enhance hop perception that just dumping in more hops.

Of course most people aren't going to be able to tell the difference between a 15oz and a 1lb hopped beer. I would be surprised if anyone could tell the difference. But I think there would be a huge difference in a 15 oz and a 30 oz hopped beer.

 

[billl]

"Of course most people aren't going to be able to tell the difference between a 15oz and a 1lb hopped beer. I would be surprised if anyone could tell the difference. But I think there would be a huge difference in a 15 oz and a 30 oz hopped beer."

Obviously the difference between 1 and 2 oz is huge. The higher you go, the more marginal the increase. If you don't think 15 to 16 makes any difference, then presumably, you wouldn't think 16 to 17 matters either. Same for 17 to 18....... 29 to 30. If you can't taste the marginal difference, it's an odd assumption to think the sum of those things you can't taste would be a "huge difference".

Personally, I think you'll have a lot more success looking at some of the factors that influence how you perceive hops vs just adding more hops. eg a few points off your FG is likely to bring more hop flavor the forefront than what you'll get from adding pounds more hops. But hey, everyone tastes things differently.

 

[WayFrae]

"Of course most people aren't going to be able to tell the difference between a 15oz and a 1lb hopped beer. I would be surprised if anyone could tell the difference. But I think there would be a huge difference in a 15 oz and a 30 oz hopped beer."

Obviously the difference between 1 and 2 oz is huge. The higher you go, the more marginal the increase. If you don't think 15 to 16 makes any difference, then presumably, you wouldn't think 16 to 17 matters either. Same for 17 to 18....... 29 to 30. If you can't taste the marginal difference, it's an odd assumption to think the sum of those things you can't taste would be a "huge difference".

Personally, I think you'll have a lot more success looking at some of the factors that influence how you perceive hops vs just adding more hops. eg a few points off your FG is likely to bring more hop flavor the forefront than what you'll get from adding pounds more hops. But hey, everyone tastes things differently.

I'm not saying it would make a better beer by any means but I do think there would be a huge difference in the flavor between a 15oz beer to a 30oz beer. However, I do agree with you that there are much better ways to make the hops stand out in a beer without spending a ridiculous amount of money on hops.

 

[theheadonthedoor]

I always try to bitter with hopshot if I can recently. And yes, this is due to me having a lot of hops and not being able to brew as often as I like. And of course I am not trying to just waste hops by any means, just thought I would entertain the idea of doing something I know is not commonly done. And why do "triple ipas" not get a category if they are different than barleywines?

And also how is everyone on the idea of hopshot in late addition? I mean if it can save wortloss..

 

[theheadonthedoor]

I mean wanting to make a huge hoppy beer, not the use of hopshot when I said about me having a lot of hops. That probably didn't make sense.

 

[insanim8er]

I sorta read through all the posts, but didn't see this.

Adding too much hops isn't only a waste of hops, but it'll also waste beer through absorption. So keep that in mind too

 

[theheadonthedoor]

That is why I want to know anyone's experiencs with using hopshot late in the boil, so that my only worry for absorption is dry hopping.

 

[insanim8er]

That is why I want to know anyone's experiencs with using hopshot late in the boil, so that my only worry for absorption is dry hopping.

I don't have personal experience, but it's suppose to be used just like leaf hops. You can use it for bittering or late addition. So I assume you'll be ok.

 

[theheadonthedoor]

Well I read it is derived from CTZ (makes sense since it's cheap and high alpha) so it should do just fine in the recipe. I'll be sure to cut out Columbus from the dry hop to keep some complexity to such a monster.

 

[Schumed]

Me and brewing buddy do something with all the hops we don't use for the year ...we always buy more than we need Hopsdirect sidewalk sale I'm look at you

Any ways we made a 10 gallon batch with 33oz of hops ...be creative ...hop strike water and the mash you will be surprise ..hops drop PH to 5.2 ...don't know why they just do...concentrate on the last 15 minutes and just go crazy

The brew software calculated 300IBU we know that's impossible but it was fun...the beer actually ended up winning several medals in the Imperial IPA cat




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[ManhattanProjectBrewing]

Me and brewing buddy do something with all the hops we don't use for the year ...we always buy more than we need Hopsdirect sidewalk sale I'm look at you

Any ways we made a 10 gallon batch with 33oz of hops ...be creative ...hop strike water and the mash you will be surprise ..hops drop PH to 5.2 ...don't know why they just do...concentrate on the last 15 minutes and just go crazy

The brew software calculated 300IBU we know that's impossible but it was fun...the beer actually ended up winning several medals in the Imperial IPA cat




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To add to Schu's comment... We as well have won several awards with our IIPA and we use 31 oz. of various hops for a 6 gallon batch. Granted, we also account for the trub loss of about 1.5 gallons due to dry hop absorption (We actually brew a 7 gallon batch to yield a 5.5 gallon final product)... At 279 IBU (Yes, theoretically impossible) this is our schedule for an IIPA that is over the top but balanced. We also mash hop, first wort hop, etc.. but the key is balance. And, besides... One can NEVER add. Too. Much. Hops.

Cheers,

-jms

 

[theheadonthedoor]

What ABV were you at? I've done about 10 oz in the last ten minutes and it came out like juice, so I am weary on the amount I can add late for the flavor. Also I tried to overbitter a 8% and it was pretty much undrinkable. I think the 60 min addition clocked in around 140. What 60 min ibus did you have good results with and still keep balance?