Toffee ipa?

[shetlandshaun]

Hello

So I have decided I want to take a crack at brewing a toffee ipa!

I just wanted to ask the knowledgable hb forum people for any advice or things to avoid or watch out for.

I'm thinking to brew a 5 gallon batch of a standard iPa then infuse the toffee flavor. In a noob and this is just in an idea stage so not sure if it will be possible

I imagine toffee being sugar could cause issue with alcohol content etc also I imagine bittering hops would be necessary to avoid too much sweetness?

Any and all advice welcome and appreciated

Sent from my iPhone

 

[firestem4]

Sounds interesting but I have no idea how that would turn out. The sweet toffee might clash with the bitterness of the hops. But good luck! Experimentation is the best way to find out if it works

 

[rodwha]

That sounds good to me. It's something along the lines I've been considering for an amber or brown IPA. If it's very sweet either push the IBU's to the extreme edge or go over it.

:rockin:

 

[SteveLikesBeer]

Interesting idea though it may be hard to try to get sweet toffee and hoppy flavor together...

You may want to use some British Crystal malt instead of using toffee sugars to avoid the sugars being eaten up. Apparently unrefined sugars can help as well.

Good luck!!

 

[RM-MN]

Get your toffee flavor from the crystal malt grains. These grains have been kilned to different temperatures to give different flavors. I'll use an amount of C-20 to get a nice caramel flavor but other Crystal malts will be different. You may have to do some digging to find the type of Crystal to use and the proper amount.

 

[ghpeel]

Light Carastan is a crystal malt that is reputed to produce nice "toffee" tones. I used it once or twice for that exact purpose but didn't it, but hey, ever recipe is different. Give it a try. I get "toffee" out of caramelly extract beers, which aren't even shooting for that flavor.

Be careful though. Actual toffee has butter in it, which will RUIN your beer. Either use caramel/crystal malts, or a pure "toffee flavor extract" thats nothing but flavor + alcohol. Any oils or fats in the extract make it unsuitable for brewing.

 

[shetlandshaun]

Thanks for the tips all much appreciated. I wanted to use highland toffee (as in Scottish) the particular brand is e using is also vegan friendly so should be no butter. I think the extract is likely to be a better shot than trying to use toffee bars melted down etc! I got a lot of homework to do before I can get cracking!

Thanks again!

 

[rodwha]

Please do report back once you've worked it out.

 

[Cyclman]

Thanks for the tips all much appreciated. I wanted to use highland toffee (as in Scottish) the particular brand is e using is also vegan friendly so should be no butter. I think the extract is likely to be a better shot than trying to use toffee bars melted down etc! I got a lot of homework to do before I can get cracking!

Thanks again!

The recipe I found for Highland Toffee used vegetable oil, not good for beer. Toffee flavors could be achieved as suggested via specialty malts, or maybe even a Belgian Candi Sugar. The caramel and sweet flavors will dramatically lower the perception of hopiness, so it won't be as IPA like as you might wish. Good luck.

 

[shetlandshaun]

I reached out to the brewer at Scottish brewery Innes & Gunn as they make a great scottish beer that has a fantastic toffee taste to it. While he wouldnt divulge all the secrets he did give a few ideas as how to get toffee taste which is similar to what has been suggested using british crystal malts etc -

"Innis & Gunn Original is made with a blend of our own specially selected pale ale malt, crystal malt and a little wheat to this we only add some hops for bitterness and none for aroma. This makes a very traditional Scottish ale that has a distinctive malt backbone, Scotland has the perfect climate for growing barley for malt. This malt will impart some of the rich toffee and caramel notes that you are picking up, but we like to do things a bit differently. As an extra step after fermentation we mature our beers with American Oak, like with whisky and bourbon this imparts distinctive vanilla, honey and toffee notes to the beer.

I can’t tell you exactly how we do it, but you might want to experiment with a small oak cask or some oak chips and see if you get more of a toffee flavour that way; as well as using some crystal malt."

 

[Johnnyhitch1]

Instead of infusing toffee flavor why not toss it in at the end of the boil?

 

[ghpeel]

That's interesting data, shaun. This thread is re-awakening my desire to nail down an English Toffee Ale once again.

However, I have some doubts about the advice you got from the brewer.

"Scotland has the perfect climate for growing barley for malt. This malt will impart some of the rich toffee and caramel notes that you are picking up"

He's probably talking about the base malt called "Golden Promise", which is very good, and a little sweet, but does not by itself impart toffee flavors (I've used it a couple times).

"I can’t tell you exactly how we do it, but you might want to experiment with a small oak cask or some oak chips and see if you get more of a toffee flavour that way; as well as using some crystal malt."

A lot of American beers are being oaked now, and to me, the oak imparts a weird rough, kinda-vanilla-but-not-quite flavor that I definitely don't associate with toffee. Also, 90% of homebrew recipes contain some kind of crystal malt. Heck, a lot of Malt Extract actually has crystal in it (which is why extract recipes are sometimes known for being sticky-sweet), so you won't get toffee from just adding a pound of C40, or else virtually every homebrew would already taste like toffee.

Honestly, to me, it sounds like they are doing some combination of things to get the toffee flavor, and they consider that combo to be a trade secret, so he's not going to come right out and say it.

I guess if you want to try the full combo of what he's suggesting, here's what you could do:

1) Use Scottish Golden Promise as the base malt, or a mini-mash grain.
2) Boil down a good portion the Golden Promise wort to a caramelly reduction (this is a traditional Scottish technique from the era before commercially available crystal malt).
3) Don't use any aroma/flavor hops, which might mask the toffee flavor
4) Use some Crystal malt (some advertise as imparting "toffee/caramel" flavor, look for those, CaraStan maybe).
5) Use a small amount of American Oak chips in the secondary. Make sure they are not fresh (ie, boil them for a while, or use them in another batch first), because the fresh chips will impart a stronger/rougher character to the beer.
6) Use a cleaner yeast than the English strains. The Scottish Ale yeast from White Labs is great, as is the Wyeast equivalent. Funky/fruity yeast might hide the toffee.
7) Try adding in some toffee-like refined sugars into the boil. Lyles Golden Syrup, or Indian Jaggery sugar, for example. Just NOT real toffee (or anything else w/ oil/fat in the ingredients)

 

[shetlandshaun]

That's interesting data, shaun. This thread is re-awakening my desire to nail down an English Toffee Ale once again.

However, I have some doubts about the advice you got from the brewer.



He's probably talking about the base malt called "Golden Promise", which is very good, and a little sweet, but does not by itself impart toffee flavors (I've used it a couple times).



A lot of American beers are being oaked now, and to me, the oak imparts a weird rough, kinda-vanilla-but-not-quite flavor that I definitely don't associate with toffee. Also, 90% of homebrew recipes contain some kind of crystal malt. Heck, a lot of Malt Extract actually has crystal in it (which is why extract recipes are sometimes known for being sticky-sweet), so you won't get toffee from just adding a pound of C40, or else virtually every homebrew would already taste like toffee.

Honestly, to me, it sounds like they are doing some combination of things to get the toffee flavor, and they consider that combo to be a trade secret, so he's not going to come right out and say it.

I guess if you want to try the full combo of what he's suggesting, here's what you could do:

1) Use Scottish Golden Promise as the base malt, or a mini-mash grain.
2) Boil down a good portion the Golden Promise wort to a caramelly reduction (this is a traditional Scottish technique from the era before commercially available crystal malt).
3) Don't use any aroma/flavor hops, which might mask the toffee flavor
4) Use some Crystal malt (some advertise as imparting "toffee/caramel" flavor, look for those, CaraStan maybe).
5) Use a small amount of American Oak chips in the secondary. Make sure they are not fresh (ie, boil them for a while, or use them in another batch first), because the fresh chips will impart a stronger/rougher character to the beer.
6) Use a cleaner yeast than the English strains. The Scottish Ale yeast from White Labs is great, as is the Wyeast equivalent. Funky/fruity yeast might hide the toffee.
7) Try adding in some toffee-like refined sugars into the boil. Lyles Golden Syrup, or Indian Jaggery sugar, for example. Just NOT real toffee (or anything else w/ oil/fat in the ingredients)

your right the beer they refer to also has a very strong vanilla taste within it too which i am not against including but dont want it to overpower the toffee flavor i would like. Many thanks for your breakdown on the process stuff like this is invaluable to a noob like me and with your help an idea is actually forming into a recipe now. Ordered some oak chips and hop bag for secondary and will be sure to boil them before use. I shall look around in regards to the yeast also. Are there any hops that would work well in this style of ale? I figure some bittering hops would be required to counter any overly sweet tastes?

 

[ghpeel]

Are there any hops that would work well in this style of ale? I figure some bittering hops would be required to counter any overly sweet tastes?

Well, I would suggest getting the base Toffee Ale down first before doing the Toffee IPA. On that regard, I would suggest hopping it like a traditional Scottish Ale, which is to say "barely".

I'd use enough English hops (EKG preferable, or Target/Challenger/Northdown/etc, just not Fuggles) to provider 15-20 IBU's. Just enough to call it an Ale, but with the final beer still being "sweet" so that you can make sure the toffee flavor comes through. No hops should go in after the initial 60min bittering addition.

After you nail down the base toffee beer, you can add a bunch of EKG hops as the aroma/flavor addition for the IPA-version, although I don't know how they will play against the toffee flavor. You can also up the bittering hops to 25-30 IBU to make it within the normal range for an IPA.

 

[ColeVet67]

your right the beer they refer to also has a very strong vanilla taste within it too which i am not against including but dont want it to overpower the toffee flavor i would like. Many thanks for your breakdown on the process stuff like this is invaluable to a noob like me and with your help an idea is actually forming into a recipe now. Ordered some oak chips and hop bag for secondary and will be sure to boil them before use. I shall look around in regards to the yeast also. Are there any hops that would work well in this style of ale? I figure some bittering hops would be required to counter any overly sweet tastes?

Now i too am not that versed in brewing, but.. i have done an EXTREME amount of reading. (1) I would reccomend not boiling your chips, this will extract most if not all of your flavor. (mead forum)

(2) oak chunks/cubes/beans would have been easier to use, no little peices of wood floatin around (mead forum)

(3) chips would impart a very strong flavor in a short amount of time.
(4) Chunks/cubes/beans would actually take longer there fore, once your flavor got to your liking you can then rack off of them (clear, bottle.. etc.. )

most people in the wine/mead forum reccommend just tossin them into the brew.. now that may be safe due to the ABV.. 3 - 4 times stronger then beer. But i would say.. i think it would be completely.. safe to dunk in some STARSAN for a few secs.. then rack into secondary on top of them. No need to boil. PLEASE.. if anyone disagrees.. correct me..

 

[shetlandshaun]

Thanks Ghpeel your advice is extremely helpful and think i will follow your advice and attempt the ale before the IPA.

and thanks Colevet for the tips on the oak chips. I had read to not put them in any starsan like stuff due to the chips soaking it in but that could be inaccurate. Someone else also mentioned steaming them for 10 minutes before which would help reduce the strong flavor that might overpower the toffee notes I am trying to get to the front.

Thanks all

 

[Black Island Brewer]

I wonder if you could get your flavors from this? The 290F sounds really yummy!

 

[ColeVet67]

Now beer is a lil more suseptible to infections, but here is some additional info i found for you to ponder..

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f30/sanitizing-oak-113452/

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f74/sanitize-oak-20894/

http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14856

http://www.winepress.us/forums/index.php?/topic/51046-oak-cubes-how-much-and-sanitize/

http://morebeer.com/content/using_oak_in_beer

http://homebrew.stackexchange.com/questions/940/sanitizing-oak-chips

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=&t=12638

http://tastybrew.com/forum/thread/237451

http://www.greatfermentations.com/oak-bourbon-and-homebrew-volume-i/

All of these links say totally different things.

 

[shetlandshaun]

Thanks colevet looks like I got me some reading to do!!!