To Secondary or Not? John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff Weigh In

[AnOldUR]

Based on these I'm inclined to think that it does indeed form a protective layer over our beer.

I don't think anyone would argue that CO2 initially drops below other gasses, the question is, how long does it take for the gasses to mix? There would be more value to that experiment if they tried to light the candle in the jar back up at, say 10 second intervals after it initially went out.

 

[brycelarson]

At first the CO2 will be layered - but the random movement of molecules will disperse it throughout the available volume of gas over time.

If we're talking about a system where there is some sort of barrier (air lock) then the concentration of CO2 will be higher than outside the vessel. The "blanket" that we're always talking about would more accurately be considered simply a higher concentration of CO2 inside the fermenter.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

But I think the debate is - if you pull the air lock to draw a sample, are you disturbing that blanket / higher concentration enough to make any appreciable difference on the beer.

 

[AnOldUR]

In a bucket, as opposed to a carboy, the large surface area would lead to a lot of mixing of gasses and lowering of the concentration of CO2 in the head space. There are a too many variables to quantify it, but once you replace the lid the gasses introduced will eventually mix with CO2 in there and create a new and lower concentration. There will be no blanketing within the closed space.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

No doubt... But back to my question - will it cause any appreciable impact to the end flavor of the beer? Maybe a question for the science sub-threads of the board...

 

[brycelarson]

No doubt... But back to my question - will it cause any appreciable impact to the end flavor of the beer? Maybe a question for the science sub-threads of the board...

I've always bought into the idea that less head space was better for long term fermentation simply due to the smaller volume of gas in the container.

I think we might be hitting one of those "matters to big brewers, not for small brewers" things. We tend to drink our small beers quickly - and age big beers. Big beer companies need all of their beers to be shelf stable for longer periods.

I've had some terribly oxidized beers (not mine ) but those all suffered hot side aeration. They were terrible, cardboardy beers. I've had oxidized stouts that were in the bottle for too long - but they go pruney. What flavors indicate fermentation oxidation - or is it simply not an issue?

Anyone have a beer oxidize in the fermenter?

 

[Denny]

No doubt... But back to my question - will it cause any appreciable impact to the end flavor of the beer? Maybe a question for the science sub-threads of the board...

Based on hundreds of batches of experience, I say no.

 

[Ondori]

I was listening to the "brew strong" episode on attenuation, and I think I heard them say this.

What I am wonder is this, I am about to brew my first AG on Christmas day, and I am brewing a vanilla robust porter. I have read to add the vanilla beans to secondary, but is that neccessary? Could I just throw the beans in after 2 weeks and let them sit the remaining two weeks in primary?

 

[Denny]

Yes, but I don't think you want them in there for 2 weeks.

 

[MaddBaggins]

I've been doing primary only for a few months now. It's working out great, with one exception. WLP051 California V yeast.

I noticed a bit too much diacetyl with this one. so, the next time I brewed my signature recipe (an American Pale), I brewed 10g and split it. I used WLP051 for 5g and WLP001 for 5g. The WLP001 was pretty good, slightly more hoppy than my usual for this recipe. The WLP051 had diacetyl again.
I haven't noticed this with any other yeast, when I primary only. I think, from now on, when I use WLP051, I will secondary like I used to.

 

[Ondori]

Yes, but I don't think you want them in there for 2 weeks.

Denny,

I am pretty much doing your recipe, just without the bourbon. How long would you leave the vanilla in for?

 

[Siriusfisherman]

Recently I have cranked up the temperature when around 60%-70% of fermentation is complete. I start at 64-68 (depending on the beer) and will allow the temperature to free rise to 70-72 degrees until the final gravity is stable for a few days. Then sometimes I crash to 50 for a few days to floc out yeast and transfer to secondary, mainly for dry-hopping. I find this technique is fast, produces a very clean beer, and attenuates fully EVERY time. I started this after doing a clone of Alchemists El Hefe, which called for this strategy.

I believe that this is what a lot of professional breweries do in order to keep the yeast suspended as it reduces diacetyl, and cleans up and finishes fermenting the beer. It is not necessary for homebrewers due to the shape and size of the fermenters we use (as Jamil and JP pointed out), but I find the results quite satisfying and it enables me to have a higher turnover rate. A lot of people seem concerned about ester production with the early temp raise, but I have not had any issues. I use 1056 by the way.

 

[Denny]

Denny,

I am pretty much doing your recipe, just without the bourbon. How long would you leave the vanilla in for?

I start tasting samples after 3-5 days. Sometimes it's ready then, sometimes it takes 10-12 days. It really depends on how fresh your vanilla is and how strong you want to flavor to be.

 

[Haputanlas]

It only took 3 days for mine to come out very strong. But, I'm sure different types of vanilla beans make a difference.

 

[funnycreature]

I start tasting samples after 3-5 days. Sometimes it's ready then, sometimes it takes 10-12 days. It really depends on how fresh your vanilla is and how strong you want to flavor to be.

Funny that I should really (almost) find the answer to my question after reading almost 500 posts! I was wondering whether vanilla beans are considered "fruit" and need to be added to a secondary. I was reading your discussion on the Northern Forum before I brewed your BVIP and even there there was no consensus about primary vs. secondary (although it appeared that most followed your original recipe calling for a secondary). Do you have any final thoughts on this or more experience both ways yourself?

Many thanks! Can't wait to see how it turns out!

 

[Denny]

Funny that I should really (almost) find the answer to my question after reading almost 500 posts! I was wondering whether vanilla beans are considered "fruit" and need to be added to a secondary. I was reading your discussion on the Northern Forum before I brewed your BVIP and even there there was no consensus about primary vs. secondary (although it appeared that most followed your original recipe calling for a secondary). Do you have any final thoughts on this or more experience both ways yourself?

Many thanks! Can't wait to see how it turns out!

Back when I made that recipe, I always used a secondary so it was the logical place to add the beans. Not wanting to mess with success, that's what I still do. Now that I seldom use secondary, I'm not sure I'd still make the recipe the same. Your choice, but adding to secondary is proven.

 

[funnycreature]

Thanks Denny! I will try the secondary soon.

 

[Piratwolf]

Recently I have cranked up the temperature when around 60%-70% of fermentation is complete. I start at 64-68 (depending on the beer) and will allow the temperature to free rise to 70-72 degrees until the final gravity is stable for a few days.... I find this technique is fast, produces a very clean beer, and attenuates fully EVERY time.

This has become my standard practice also. I believe Tasty McDole does this on most beers as well. I haven't had a flabby-malt-character beer since I started doing this; nor have there been flavor issues. From what I hear and read, the flavor problems mostly come during the lag/growth phase in the first 24-36 hours of the cycle. At 60-70% to FG, you're generally well past the danger zone.

 

[mtnagel]

How often are you checking the gravity?

 

[cuda6pak]

I have a question for the HBT experts and long primary folks - How long is it necessary to keep your fermenting beers in a precise temp controlled chamber?

I ask this because in the interest of saving space and money, I do not want to add a second fermentation chamber, but I also do not want to tie up my current one for 4 weeks with a high grav beer. Is there a certain threshold, say after 1-2 weeks (depending on high grav or style) where it is not so critical to keep a precise temperature? And what is the specific ambient temperature that is safe? I keep my house around 80* during the day (in summer, 60* in winter) and back down to below 70-75 at night. I don't want the 80* or 60* ambient temp to affect a beer negatively.

 

[DPBISME]

I have a question for the HBT experts and long primary folks - How long is it necessary to keep your fermenting beers in a precise temp controlled chamber?

I ask this because in the interest of saving space and money, I do not want to add a second fermentation chamber, but I also do not want to tie up my current one for 4 weeks with a high grav beer. Is there a certain threshold, say after 1-2 weeks (depending on high grav or style) where it is not so critical to keep a precise temperature? And what is the specific ambient temperature that is safe? I keep my house around 80* during the day (in summer, 60* in winter) and back down to below 70-75 at night. I don't want the 80* or 60* ambient temp to affect a beer negatively.

There was another post like this today, that brewer wanted to "age" the beer in the low to mid 70s folowing the primary fermentations.

I am not a biology or chemist but I think that once the yeast has finished consuming the majority of the food available and producing the majority of the flavor that what ever it does after that will not affect the beer much.

So say at three weeks it is 99% done... well what could that other 1% do to your beer? I say not much.

Also: some brewing schedules want you to raise the temp (Kolsch) up to around 72 before Lagering to make the yeast more active. FOR THE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diacetyl REST.

Now you temp-ranges are 20 degrees so if you took you beer out of the fermentation chamber when it was 80 (a bit high) it would take a while for the beer to actually get to them temp.

BUT: If you had a cool spot in the mid 70s it would take a long time to it to get warm since the difference in temps is not very big... 10 degrees it would probably take a day or more.

The only thing I would worry about at those higher temps is "little beasties" Brett, wild yeasts, or infection might be possible but it all depends on how long you are going to leave it in the keg at those temps and if your sanitation is good.

So: when ever you have finished Primary fermentation or are very close to it I think you can move your beer out... I would say a minimum of three weeks for HG-beers or you could take some gravioty readings...

 

[brycelarson]

I have a question for the HBT experts and long primary folks - How long is it necessary to keep your fermenting beers in a precise temp controlled chamber?

I ask this because in the interest of saving space and money, I do not want to add a second fermentation chamber, but I also do not want to tie up my current one for 4 weeks with a high grav beer. Is there a certain threshold, say after 1-2 weeks (depending on high grav or style) where it is not so critical to keep a precise temperature? And what is the specific ambient temperature that is safe? I keep my house around 80* during the day (in summer, 60* in winter) and back down to below 70-75 at night. I don't want the 80* or 60* ambient temp to affect a beer negatively.

I keep good temperature control until I'm at or beyond about 75% of expected attenuation. Then I either increase with heat or allow it to come to about 70 deg for 4-5 days. Then it's a matter of deciding how you want to age your beer through the completion of fermentation and clean up.

 

[Piratwolf]

How often are you checking the gravity?

I'll check after 3 days. I've used most of these yeasts enough (001, 3711, 007, Pacman) to know what they look like at various stages. Then I'll pull them out and let them warm up to about 70F and finish vi-ga-rose-ly

If you're doing healthy starters, oxygenating your wort, and pitching a sufficient cell count, it's not going to take most beers more than 2-3 days to ferment down to 75% of expected attenuation. Give it another 4-5 days for the yeast to do clean-up and off-gas, and you should be good to go.

I know the time issue is sensitive for some people, and I really don't want to re-awaken that beast. And, of course, this doesn't necessarily apply to bigger beers or specialty ingredient beers (oak, dry hop, herbs, bugs, etc). Brew how you make your best beers.

But in response to the poster who doesn't want to tie up his ferm chamber, know that there are a number of folks here who make great beer and go flame-to-glass in 10-14 days as a regular practice. It's all about process and healthy fermentation.

Cheers!

 

[brycelarson]

But in response to the poster who doesn't want to tie up his ferm chamber, know that there are a number of folks here who make great beer and go flame-to-glass in 10-14 days as a regular practice. It's all about process and healthy fermentation.

I also don't want to get into the long term primary fight - but I agree. 3-4 days at low temp, 4-5 days at 70-ish and into the keg. I hit it with 25 psi to seal the lid then let her sit until a spot opens in my freezer. It's fine in a week, often better in two additional weeks.

 

[isleofman]

Recently I have cranked up the temperature when around 60%-70% of fermentation is complete. I start at 64-68 (depending on the beer) and will allow the temperature to free rise to 70-72 degrees until the final gravity is stable for a few days.

I do the same. The Yeast book also praises this method as well. It says with 1/3 to 1/4 fermentation remaining, slowly crank the temperature up 5F - 10F more than the target primary fermentation temp. It also talks about starting fermentation a tad cooler for the first 18 - 24 hours. Say, 2F lower. As this is when most off flavors are created.

 

[user 125772]

Old school here, been 2-stage fermenting for years.

Jamil and John talk about how home brewer's fermenters have broad bottoms (unlike commercial conicals) , but what about home brewers using conical fermenters for 10 gallon batches ?
Still no harm fermenting for 4 weeks in a conical?

Also, is there still a viable yeast colony suspended in the beer after 30 days for the purpose of bottle carbonation?

 

[Pilgarlic]

Also, is there still a viable yeast colony suspended in the beer after 30 days for the purpose of bottle carbonation?

Plenty of yeast for bottle conditioning after 30 days... and more.

 

[Denny]

Old school here, been 2-stage fermenting for years.

Jamil and John talk about how home brewer's fermenters have broad bottoms (unlike commercial conicals) , but what about home brewers using conical fermenters for 10 gallon batches ?
Still no harm fermenting for 4 weeks in a conical?

Also, is there still a viable yeast colony suspended in the beer after 30 days for the purpose of bottle carbonation?

Actually, the recommendation came from the fact that Jamil uses conicals. He doesn't use a secondary since he just dumped yeast from the conical. That's something that's often overlooked in the recommendation to not use secondary.

There's plenty of yeast left for carbing after 30 days. Even if you lager the beer for months, there's still enough.

 

[Puddlethumper]

So I'm doing my first batch of IPA and moved it to secondary and dry hopped after first week. How important is temperature control during the three weeks the recipe calls for in the secondary?

 

[Silverback23]

Wow,

Just read all of this thread. Quick question. I have a basic Porter sitting in the primary. Plan on leaving there for about two months, due to my travel plans. At the end of the first month, I'd like to add some fresh mint and fresh vanilla beans that have been steeping in Cognac for a month. Can i throw it all in the primary, about 16 oz of Cognac (mint & Vanilla beans too) without harming the beer. About 16 oz of Cognac. It will be in a grain bag ( Mint and Vanilla). The cognac plus mint and vanilla will spend a month in the primary total. Opinions?