To boil LME or not to boil LME?

[HopZombie99]

Hi all, I am wondering about the reasons for boiling LME? Is it mainly sanitization concerns or are there other benefits of doing so? The guy at my LHBS advised me that boiling the extract is not necessary. Is he just trying to make it easier for me at the expense of potentially putting my beer at risk?

He told me to boil the hops in water and gave me a few addition timings. I asked about boiling the extract and he replied that I didn't have to.

I asked him to help me create a bitter IPA. I think my exact request was to "hop the **** out it".

I am using Muntons connoisseurs IPA bitter and Breiss Golden Light LME in an IPA.

Thanks for helping me understand my choice, even tho the deed has already been done. I just want to know what I should do the next time.

~HZ99

 

[A4J]

Hop utilization decreases as wort gravity increases. Water by itself is zero gravity. Some people have taken all this to mean that it would be more efficient and get more bitterness out of the hops by boiling them in plain water. In my experience, the quality bitterness isn't necessarily better when it's just boiled in water.

 

[freisste]

Hop utilization decreases as wort gravity increases.

This was widely believed for a long time, but relatively recently has been shown incorrect.

Everything the HBS told you is correct and you don't need to boil extract. Based on the production process, it is coming to you sterile. It is probably a good idea to boil it at least for a minute or two or add at flameout, just to make sure something from the outside of the bag or can didn't get on it and to make sure it is evenly mixed in the wort. I suggest that whenever you add it, turn the heat way down or off to make sure you don't scorch it on the bottom of your pot.

Also, adding late reduces mailard reactions and caramelization of malt extract, which leads to slight flavors and darker colored beer.

Honestly, I ain't really think of any argument to add the malt extract early...

 

[strambo]

I do partial mashes so the wort is only at about 1.020-.030 gravity during the boil. I add all my LME at flameout. There is enough time for it to still get Pastuerized.

 

[AMonkey]

I think you need some sugar in the boil. Many people recommend boiling about 1/3 of the LME for the full boil and add the rest at around 5 or 10 minutes. I read that boiling hops in just water isn't a good idea, but I have never tried it.

 

[chungking]

So why do all kits say to add the extract and hops, then boil for a hour? Seems a bit unnecessary, given the risks of scorching, boil over, etc. everything I have read says to boil everything together for at least an hour. Would adding the extract at the end cause a different tasting beer? Does it matter?

 

[freisste]

So why do all kits say to add the extract and hops, then boil for a hour? Seems a bit unnecessary, given the risks of scorching, boil over, etc. everything I have read says to boil everything together for at least an hour. Would adding the extract at the end cause a different tasting beer? Does it matter?

I think it would taste different (worse) due to caramelization and mailard reactions if you boil (especially partial boil) your extract.

 

[Yooper]

So why do all kits say to add the extract and hops, then boil for a hour? Seems a bit unnecessary, given the risks of scorching, boil over, etc. everything I have read says to boil everything together for at least an hour. Would adding the extract at the end cause a different tasting beer? Does it matter?

That's been the traditional way for years. It was only recently, maybe the last 5 years or so, where people tried adding the extract late in the boil and found that it worked out better. The first time I did it was probably in 2006 or so. I loved the results, and continued. But all of the kit instructions stated to add the extract at the beginning, and many still do.

I was reading an article in Zymurgy a few years ago, and Charlie Papazian himself said he had never heard of adding the extract late in the boil, and it sounded crazy to him! But it's common practice now, and with the boom in homebrewing, many new homebrewers are open to new ideas so it's gained acceptance in the mainstream.

 

[bovineblitz]

I think it would taste different (worse) due to caramelization and mailard reactions if you boil (especially partial boil) your extract.

Why would commercial extractions caramelize and react more than extractions done at home? Mashing is just extraction.

 

[freisste]

Like I said, I think it is a worst case when doing a partial boil. Also, with extract, it is produced and then reduced down to packaging volume. Then you reconstitute it and boil it again. That seems significantly more processed than an all-grain brew.

But I'm not sure.

 

[chungking]

I definitely need to try this. I've done mostly extract and always boiled the extract and hops for a hour. So I should steep my grains, boil, add hops as required, and then add extract at flame out?

Just want to make sure I fully understand.

 

[unionrdr]

I prefer to use half a 3lb bag of plain DME in the 2.5-3 gallon boil for hop additions. Then add the remaining DME & all the LME at flame out. The boiling wort is still very hot when mixing in the remaining extracts. Still plenty hot enough at 180F+ to steep for 15 minutes to pasteurize it,which happens around 162F. It's worked great for me since the begining.

 

[Yooper]

Why would commercial extractions caramelize and react more than extractions done at home? Mashing is just extraction.

Why? Well, it's because oftentimes it's done as a concentrated boil. When you mash, and then boil down the runnings, you are going from, say, a 1.040 preboil 6.5 gallon volume to 5.25 gallons of 1.050 wort. When boiling all the extract, you may have 1.110 in 2.5 gallons of wort and boil THAT down, and then add 3 gallons of water. That would increase the maillard reactions by a huge amount, creating "cooked extract" flavors, and increased browning of the wort.

By adding the bulk of the LME at the end of the boil, you keep the wort less sugar-dense, more like a comparable AG batch, and decrease the corresponding maillard reactions and browning of the wort.

If you've ever boiled down first runnings (say, like when making a Scottish ale), you can see the difference when you start with a more sugar-dense wort and how it will get thicker, sweeter, and caramelized.

 

[EnjoyGoodBeer]

This may be why most of my batches done at full boils seem to have a same taste to them. I have started making my own reciepes now and ive been using DME instead of LME. I also heard about using LME at start and tasting carmelized. I do boil 6 gals now 2.5 O could only imagine what that would tast like.
I noticed this after around 3 of my beers had a same carmely kinda taste. So sense then Ive made my own kits and knocked out the LME. Also and a nother reason why is im trying to have the freshest extract and from what I read about LME not always being on the fresh side I go with DME.

 

[DrunkleJon]

This intrigues me. I actually have an extract w/ specialty kit that I am going to brew with a friend soon and have always put the ME in pre-boil as the directions stated. This kit came with both DME and LME, should we split up the extracts, wait until flameout, or how should this be done?

 

[unionrdr]

Like a said previously,I use DME in the boil,LME at flame out. Lighter color & no twang.

 

[HopZombie99]

Thanks for the discussion guys. From what most of you are saying, it appears that there should be no reason to boil LME. This is in line with what my LHBS was saying. This is a good thing. I may start throwing the LME in at flameout to aid with mixing. I've been playing around with the tool at Hopville. When you change the LME from boil to late boil, you get a fair increase in IBU, which is what I am looking for. My beer in particular went from around a 78 to a 120.

 

[chungking]

So why is it ok to boil dme and specialty grains?

Is dme better than lme? Should I only be boiling hops?

This just blew my mind and changed everything I know about extract brewing...

 

[EnjoyGoodBeer]

So why is it ok to boil dme and specialty grains?

Is dme better than lme? Should I only be boiling hops?

This just blew my mind and changed everything I know about extract brewing...

Im under the rule of thumb that DME and LME are about the same. But DME has better shelf life than LME.

I have not done LME at flamout but next time I use it (if I do) ill try it to see the difference.

As for your other questions I dont feel I can answer those question 100% accurate.

Edit your really not suppose to boil specialty grains, and as for DME I believe it doesnt change the colour and add a "carmelized flavour" as LME can do. Someone can correct me if im wrong.

 

[unionrdr]

You steep specialty grains,never boil them. Or mix'em with base malts for AG or partial mash. I like DME in the boil,since it doesn't caramelize as quickly as LME does. I use 1.5lb out of a 3lb bag of plain DME in a 2.5-3 gallon boil for hop additions.
I just did my 1st partial mash on 10.9,where the mashed 5lb of grain equal about half the total fermentables. So I used that for hop additions,adding the 3.3lb jug of gold LME at flame out. Worked great,light color & flavor was great at that point. Just about done fermenting now.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for the discussion guys. From what most of you are saying, it appears that there should be no reason to boil LME. This is in line with what my LHBS was saying. This is a good thing. I may start throwing the LME in at flameout to aid with mixing. I've been playing around with the tool at Hopville. When you change the LME from boil to late boil, you get a fair increase in IBU, which is what I am looking for. My beer in particular went from around a 78 to a 120.

Take that with a grain of salt. Calculating IBUs by wort gravity is faulty anyway, and since the wort is saturated with hops oils by about 100 IBUs, it's not really possible to get more than 100 IBUs in any wort anyway except in rare cases. Even Pliny the Elder, which calculates out to something like 235 IBUs has been tested and it's really 80 IBUs or something like that.

 

[menerdari]

So why do all kits say to add the extract and hops, then boil for a hour? Seems a bit unnecessary, given the risks of scorching, boil over, etc. everything I have read says to boil everything together for at least an hour. Would adding the extract at the end cause a different tasting beer? Does it matter?

Not all do, I have done a couple of Brewers Best kits that have you only add half at the beginning and the rest later in the boil.

 

[Yooper]

So why is it ok to boil dme and specialty grains?

Is dme better than lme? Should I only be boiling hops?

This just blew my mind and changed everything I know about extract brewing...

You of course know you boil the liquid from the grains (called "wort" after the steep) and not the grains themselves.

Ideally, you'd use a composition for the boil of what the same beer would be in an all-grain batch. So, say a pound of DME per gallon of water in the boil, with the rest added at or near flame out. That would give you a consistency that is not too sugar-rich, not too thick, and would allow a good boil with good hops utilization.

If you're doing a 3 gallon boil, adding three pounds of DME to the beginning of the boil seems about right. Less is fine, and more is fine, too, so no need to be too precise. But it seems to be about right in the finished taste, without a "cooked extract" taste if you sort of consider 1 pound extract/gallon of water in the boil in my experience.

 

[chungking]

Yes, I know you steep the grains, and boil the wort, not boil the grains. That is what I meant.

What is the conversion from lme to dme? I know it isn't quite lbs per lbs. most extract kits I've seen use lme...

 

[Yooper]

Yes, I know you steep the grains, and boil the wort, not boil the grains. That is what I meant.

What is the conversion from lme to dme? I know it isn't quite lbs per lbs. most extract kits I've seen use lme...

A general rule of thumb is 1 pound grain = .75 pound LME = .6 pound DME when you're converting recipes.