Three Straight Bottle Infections

[Brew_G]

...is enough to make a new brewer hang up his kettle.

I bottled up an American wheat eight days ago, and after having had two straight bottle infections, I wanted to open one after a week to find out whether I'd found the culprit.

Apparently not. Well...maybe I did, but it wasn't enough to stop the issue.

I found a ball of crud in the tip of my bottling want after the second infected batch - it was like a spitball that had been rolled in dirt. I cleaned out the wand, washed the bucket, and took the spigot apart to clean it out. I also replaced the tubing for my auto siphon. I figured that that, plus a thorough Star-Sanning of the whole thing, would take care of the problem. Unfortunately, today I had an overcarbed beer that had been chilled for over 24 hours. I then opened a warm one - hat was a gusher. I dumped the majority, threw those bottles away, and popped a few beers in the fridge just to see if I could save some. Those bottles won't be reused.

I now have 2+ cases of 12 oz bottles and a bunch of bombers getting the bleach bomb treatment in the tub, and I've tossed the bottling bucket and auto siphon. I'm pretty f'ing fed up.

I'm almost 100% certain the issue isn't in the fermenting process, but rather in the bottling. If my next batch (brewed today) ends up infected, I'm not sure what I'll do.

Sorry for the long post, but I needed the rant. I'm so f'ing pissed off...

 

[Clonefan94]

I would replace everything plastic at this point. From everything I've read on here, that probably is what you should have done after the first infection.

That's a real bummer to hear. I hope it turns around for you on the next batch.

 

[Brew_G]

I would replace everything plastic at this point. From everything I've read on here, that probably is what you should have done after the first infection.

That's a real bummer to hear. I hope it turns around for you on the next batch.

That's the plan - auto siphon and tubing and the whole bottling bucket assembly. I BIAB in a kettle with no valve and use a glass carboy, so there's nothing else plastic in my setup. Gotta start anew. Just gotta learn from your mistakes and a new brewer.

Thanks...this next batch is really promising, and if it comes off it'll definitely get my spirits up!

 

[eluterio]

So sorry to hear your tale. I'm assuming you use a classic immersion chiller then pour your wort using a funnel into the carboy. This process also could lead to infections. As you dump the chilled wort into your carboy the air around you has bacteria and wild yeast that could take hold. I had an issue with infection when I first started and discovered it was my water container I was using to add water to my extract batch. My container had algae growing and caused my infection. If you buy new plastic equipment it might be something pre fermentation or pre bottling. Don't give up we here are willing to help with trouble shooting!

 

[masskrug]

Do you throw in loose hops? I have had some hops clog my bottling wand. Make sure you clean it thoroughly after bottling. Remove the spring and nipple, rinse with hot water and sanitize with Starsan or equivalent.

The bottle bombs may or not be related. Did you stir in the priming sugar or is it possible some bottles have more sugar?

Chilling for 24 hours ain't ****. You need to chill for at least 3 days in my book.

 

[Qhrumphf]

So sorry to hear your tale. I'm assuming you use a classic immersion chiller then pour your wort using a funnel into the carboy. This process also could lead to infections. As you dump the chilled wort into your carboy the air around you has bacteria and wild yeast that could take hold. I had an issue with infection when I first started and discovered it was my water container I was using to add water to my extract batch. My container had algae growing and caused my infection. If you buy new plastic equipment it might be something pre fermentation or pre bottling. Don't give up we here are willing to help with trouble shooting!

This is alarmist, and while technically true, shouldn't be an issue under normal brewing conditions. If you leave your wort out for several days after the boil before pitching and sealing it up, then yes, this it's possible to pick up contaminants and have them gain a foothold. But if you're boiling, transferring, and then aerating/pitching right away, it won't be a problem.

If the carboy, or if you're using a plastic funnel that isn't clean and sanitary, that's more likely your issue if it sticks around.

I would look to your bottling bucket spigot. You need to take it apart fully and clean it every single time. There's lots of little nooks and crannies inside that spigot where bugs can hide, and if a speck of wort or beer remains after you rinse it out when you're done, then the bad guys can grow in there.

Also, are you cleaning before you sanitize? Cleaning and sanitizing are not the same thing, and Star-San is a sanitizer, not a cleaner. If there's any soil whatsoever in your equipment (even if you can't see it), then Star-San will not be effective.

 

[Rockit]

I had a couple of back to back infections a few years ago. Soaked everything in a bleach solution for 24 hours. Rinsed multiple times with an iodine solution. Starstan right before use.
never an issue since.

 

[eluterio]

Like I said before there are people here to help! With tons of experiences the problem will be found!!!!

 

[WouldBeBrewmaster]

Make sure you have enough Star San in your solution. If you have a pH meter or strips, make sure the reading is under 3.0 or 3.5 at the most. If your Star San solution starts to get cloudy, dump it and start over.

 

[eluterio]

I agree with ^^^^^ with the star San. I emailed 5 star on using RO or distilled water works well and can last several weeks to months.

 

[BadBeagleBrew]

What is your fermenting process / bottling process. Over carbed doesn't necessarily mean infection, neither does a warm gusher, just being warm is enough at times to make an over carbed beer gush. How was the flavour/aroma on these beers. You may be just bottling before fermentation is complete. Also if you're not rinsing your bottles thouroughly after pouring a glass, that can result in crud/yeast/mold to develop in your bottles. Hold a dry bottle up to the light and you should be able to see without a problem if anything is stuck inside them.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Chilling for 24 hours ain't ****. You need to chill for at least 3 days in my book.

Depends. If you're talking about nice clear beer with nice compacted sediment at the bottom, then yes. If you're talking about getting it cold enough for the CO2 to stay in solution, 24 hours is plenty.

I agree with ^^^^^ with the star San. I emailed 5 star on using RO or distilled water works well and can last several weeks to months.

My limited chemistry understanding would suggest that it's because Star-San sanitizes by pH, and alkalinity in water will resist the necessary drop in pH. Of course, the blokes over in the brewing science section who are actual chemists and scientists would know more than I do.

What is your fermenting process / bottling process. Over carbed doesn't necessarily mean infection, neither does a warm gusher, just being warm is enough at times to make an over carbed beer gush. How was the flavour/aroma on these beers. You may be just bottling before fermentation is complete. Also if you're not rinsing your bottles thouroughly after pouring a glass, that can result in crud/yeast/mold to develop in your bottles. Hold a dry bottle up to the light and you should be able to see without a problem if anything is stuck inside them.

This is a good point. If you brewed a 5 gallon batch, and actually bottled 4.5 gallons, at normal ale temps (~68 or so), and put 5 oz of corn sugar in (as per normal kit instructions) you're on the high carb range, possibly enough to gush a bit at room temp. If you had slight underattenuation from under-aerating and under-pitching (also very possible for a new brewer), and then the bottling and priming action was enough to get the yeast to chew through even just another point, you're definitely into gusher range.

 

[Brew_G]

Thanks for all the responses and input, folks. I'll try to hit each of the potential issues.

I didn't have any infections like this until a couple batches ago. It was after the second infection in a row that I found that spitball in the top of the bottling wand. I chill in an ice bath and am very careful about sanitizing anything that comes into contact with the wort.

The last three batches have been loose dry hopped, but I use a hop bag for the boil. The gunk that got into the bottling wand was probably hop material that I just didn't realize was there. Now I know to check the tip of the wand after each bottling session. I wasn't doing that before.

I do clean before I sanitize, but, as I mentioned above, I didn't think to check the top of the wand. It simply didn't occur to me that such a problem could occur.

Believe me...this wasn't just overcarbonation due to bottling before FG was reached. These beers have a real bite to them and most of the hoppiness is almost completely nonexistent - even in batches with 6 oz or so of hops. My previous beer wasn't horrible, but it left a lot to be desired. After bottling, it went from a steady 1.013 to 1.010.

As for batch size, this last one was dead on 5 gallons. I primed to 2.5 volumes, but it was way, way beyond that. My previous four batches were fine, but these last three have been an abomination.

I'll look into my process a little more, but I think Qhrumpf is spot on in terms of the wand and spigot. That first infection was the killer. Once that set in, and I didn't properly deal with it, the next two batches were goners. Hopefully I can get back on track with a new bucket and siphon.

By the way, I love that avatar, Qhrumpf. I say that as a fellow Yiddo...

 

[Qhrumphf]

Thanks for all the responses and input, folks. I'll try to hit each of the potential issues.

I didn't have any infections like this until a couple batches ago. It was after the second infection in a row that I found that spitball in the top of the bottling wand. I chill in an ice bath and am very careful about sanitizing anything that comes into contact with the wort.

The last three batches have been loose dry hopped, but I use a hop bag for the boil. The gunk that got into the bottling wand was probably hop material that I just didn't realize was there. Now I know to check the tip of the wand after each bottling session. I wasn't doing that before.

I do clean before I sanitize, but, as I mentioned above, I didn't think to check the top of the wand. It simply didn't occur to me that such a problem could occur.

Believe me...this wasn't just overcarbonation due to bottling before FG was reached. These beers have a real bite to them and most of the hoppiness is almost completely nonexistent - even in batches with 6 oz or so of hops. My previous beer wasn't horrible, but it left a lot to be desired. After bottling, it went from a steady 1.013 to 1.010.

Smart to check the gravity, but was that thoroughly degassed? Otherwise the reading could easily be off but that much.

As for batch size, this last one was dead on 5 gallons. I primed to 2.5 volumes, but it was way, way beyond that. My previous four batches were fine, but these last three have been an abomination.

Is that 5 gallon batch size, or 5 gallons bottled? It's the bottled volume that matters. For a 5 gallon batch, you usually end up with ~4.5 gallons bottled, and at normal ale temp, 5 oz of corn sugar ends up ~2.75 volumes. If you used less than that, awesome. But if you're going off batch volume instead of bottling volume, you're probably overpriming.

I'll look into my process a little more, but I think Qhrumpf is spot on in terms of the wand and spigot. That first infection was the killer. Once that set in, and I didn't properly deal with it, the next two batches were goners. Hopefully I can get back on track with a new bucket and siphon.

By the way, I love that avatar, Qhrumpf. I say that as a fellow Yiddo...

Come On You Spurs! Cheers

 

[BadBeagleBrew]

I also just can't help but feel that you are having a carb issue not an infection one at this point, how was the flavour other than your loss in hop flavour aroma? Over carbed beer could easily de-gass some of that taste/aroma when fizzing like crazy. How long is your fermentation? Are you doing full boils without any means of oxygenation?

 

[eluterio]

Just love it so many ideas so much to look at. One step at a time. Start with one then move on to the next if not fixed. Good luck and again don't give up this fantastic hobby.

I don't know how to quote individually and would like to respond to the star San solution, correct the alkalinity does effect the solution and it's effectiveness. Ro or distilled usually sit at a ph between 6-8 and have very little minerals. The clarity of star San in to water in 2 or 3 months have been clear in my house. And the ph right where it should be according to the ph strips. I haven't had any issues keeping star San good to roll in a keg for 2-3 months. If your worried about the effectiveness I would recommend dumping after a month if you brew like a mad man and every week. If not a gallon of distilled water and the right star San solution works well for each session and then some.

 

[Brew_G]

Smart to check the gravity, but was that thoroughly degassed? Otherwise the reading could easily be off but that much.

Do you mean the (assumed) infected sample? Then, yes, I shook it up and let it sit for at least four or five hours before taking the reading. I don't let the FG reading degas, though. Should I?

Is that 5 gallon batch size, or 5 gallons bottled? It's the bottled volume that matters. For a 5 gallon batch, you usually end up with ~4.5 gallons bottled, and at normal ale temp, 5 oz of corn sugar ends up ~2.75 volumes. If you used less than that, awesome. But if you're going off batch volume instead of bottling volume, you're probably overpriming.

That's 5 gallons bottled. I generally have slightly less than 5.5 gallons in the fermenter, with 5 gallons going into the bucket. I use a priming sugar calculator to determine the amount of sugar I need at bottling - generally in the 4.5 oz range.

Come On You Spurs! Cheers

COYS!

 

[Brew_G]

Just love it so many ideas so much to look at. One step at a time. Start with one then move on to the next if not fixed. Good luck and again don't give up this fantastic hobby.

I don't know how to quote individually and would like to respond to the star San solution, correct the alkalinity does effect the solution and it's effectiveness. Ro or distilled usually sit at a ph between 6-8 and have very little minerals. The clarity of star San in to water in 2 or 3 months have been clear in my house. And the ph right where it should be according to the ph strips. I haven't had any issues keeping star San good to roll in a keg for 2-3 months. If your worried about the effectiveness I would recommend dumping after a month if you brew like a mad man and every week. If not a gallon of distilled water and the right star San solution works well for each session and then some.

I haven't been doing anything differently in terms of Star San in these last three batches than I did before, but I suppose the issue could lie there. I use tap water and make a new batch of sanitizing solution for each bottling session, and by all accounts doing it that way is fine. I do have a gallon and a sprayer that I keep around, but that's made with distilled water.

I do have pH strips, but they only read between 4.6-6.2.

 

[flars]

Clean your auto-siphon before you throw it out.
Soak the siphon and tubing in PBW for a couple of hours. Use the tubing like a rifle cleaning rod. Use a rubber band to hold paper toweling, wet with PBW solution, as a swab to wipe the inside of the large outer tube. Swab with the tube filled with PBW solution. (Even though I rinse immediately after use, I was surprised to see the swab turn the PBW solution a light brown. First swabbing in five years of use.)

Use a wet cotton swab to clean the inside curl of the suction gasket on the internal racking cane.

I use water pressure to force wads of wet paper toweling through the racking tube as a make shift swab.

This may be your infection source, if you do find debris. Bleach sanitize, if you did find debris, rinse well, and clean again with PBW.

If you do not find any debris, then a replacement siphon may be necessary.

I use the same basic method to clean the beer/wine thief for SG samples.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Do you mean the (assumed) infected sample? Then, yes, I shook it up and let it sit for at least four or five hours before taking the reading. I don't let the FG reading degas, though. Should I?

The residual CO2 in your fermenter samples is low. I usually spin the hydrometer a little bit, and that's it. So yes, I was referring to the overcarbonated presumably infected sample. So sounds like a drop in gravity to me, and presumably yes, it either continued to attenuate in the bottle, or it's infected. In the first case, that may be as low as it will go. In the second case, it could go even lower (some bugs can super-attenuate to <1.000) and be potentially dangerous with bottle bombs.

That's 5 gallons bottled. I generally have slightly less than 5.5 gallons in the fermenter, with 5 gallons going into the bucket. I use a priming sugar calculator to determine the amount of sugar I need at bottling - generally in the 4.5 oz range.

Good. That's exactly what you should be doing. So you're presumably not overpriming.


Try letting them sit a little longer, give them 3 weeks at room temp and then a day or two in the fridge after that. See if it's literally just a balance issue. That's the common recommendation for homebrewers, but as I've gone along I've found letting it sit for 3 weeks to be less important.

However, 8 days is early for bottle conditioned, and if there's still enough yeast particulate in suspension to provide nucleation, I could see gushing. However, that won't necessarily impact the carbonation level, just release what carbonation is there more rapidly (hence the gush). If the beer itself seems overcarbonated in the mouth, especially once cold, then you're likely overcarbed.

So replacing your plastic is the best step right now, which you're already planning on. And then going forward, make sure you're getting all the parts of bottling bucket spigot apart, bottling wand apart, auto-sipon apart, etc. Which is already the plan, it sounds like.

So I think we're done here

 

[Rhaop]

I've found keeping a cheap cooler filled with 5 gal or so hot oxi clean water is great for bottle day to soak bottles and equipment, after I soak the bottles i hit them with jet blaster on the faucet then sanitize and hang on bottle tree to dry, after bottling the siphon and other equipment go in the cooler for a soak

 

[Brew_G]

Qhrumpf...I hear you loud and clear. I'll start fresh and make sure to get at the cleaning really well after each new bottling day. Thanks for talking me through the steps of trying to nail down where things may have gone wrong.

Rhaop...that's a really good idea. I have a large cooler that can easily fit any equipment I want to Oxy soak (bucket and carboy not included).

 

[Rhaop]

I have a $20 coleman cooler it helps keeps the water hot over the period of a hour or so bottling session, and yea it won't help with the buckets and carboy but I usually fill them separately with oxi water to soak overnight, cheers and good luck!

 

[Brew_G]

I had a very curious happening last night that makes me wonder...

I cold crashed an American Wheat last night (putting ice bottles in my rope-handled tub setup), but before I did that I did some research on cold crashing and suckback. After that research and decided to replace the Star San in my three-piece airlock with vodka, just in case. Lo and behold, after I checked on it a couple hours in, I realized that the vodka had gotten sucked into the carboy to a level of about an inch from the bottom of the airlock. I then refilled the airlock with more vodka and watched as the liquid got sucked down into the carboy, stopping at the same exact level as it had been at before. Checked it this morning and it was still at the same level.

What 's interesting about this is that each of the previous three bottle-infected batches were the first batches that I'd ever cold crashed. I did this because they were the only ones I'd dry hopped, and I wanted to get the hop particles to drop out of suspension prior to bottling. But I didn't use vodka in the airlocks for that - I used Star San solution (and I never really changed it out from the stuff that was in there during fermentation).

This has me wondering whether the suckback during cold crash played the main/only role in my bottle infections, especially considering how bad the last batch ended up being (it's truly terrible).

I sure as hell am glad I went the vodka route for cold crashing!!

 

[eluterio]

Cold crashing or trying to remove much of the particles is a good process. With an American wheat most of the yeast in suspension gives a little to the flavor of the wheat beers German or American. Although they can be brilliantly clear it all goes with preference. One thing I have learned over the years with American wheat beers drink them fresh they taste better.

As for your air lock sucking in the star san if your ph levels of your star san was not in the optimal levels to kill bacteria it may be the cause of your infections. Vodka is the most logical step.

With my brewing practices, and mind you they are mine, I don't bother with cold crashing at all. I just ferment in primary taste after 14 days or so if taste is good then rack into bottling bucket and bottle. After 2 weeks of priming I put them in the fridge and chill for another few weeks. Eventually they will clear up. This is where I tell my friends kegging is much better. You keg and use the keg as the secondary put it in the fridge to chill, cold crash, pressurize and boom its clear after a several weeks. But then I make sure to tell them always best to have several kegs so you can drink the old one and wait for the knew one to finish.

Would like to know how the vodka helped though. GOOD LUCK.

 

[Brew_G]

Cold crashing or trying to remove much of the particles is a good process. With an American wheat most of the yeast in suspension gives a little to the flavor of the wheat beers German or American. Although they can be brilliantly clear it all goes with preference. One thing I have learned over the years with American wheat beers drink them fresh they taste better.

As for your air lock sucking in the star san if your ph levels of your star san was not in the optimal levels to kill bacteria it may be the cause of your infections. Vodka is the most logical step.

With my brewing practices, and mind you they are mine, I don't bother with cold crashing at all. I just ferment in primary taste after 14 days or so if taste is good then rack into bottling bucket and bottle. After 2 weeks of priming I put them in the fridge and chill for another few weeks. Eventually they will clear up. This is where I tell my friends kegging is much better. You keg and use the keg as the secondary put it in the fridge to chill, cold crash, pressurize and boom its clear after a several weeks. But then I make sure to tell them always best to have several kegs so you can drink the old one and wait for the knew one to finish.

Would like to know how the vodka helped though. GOOD LUCK.

The reason I cold crash is to drop dry hops out of suspension. Up until the last four batches, I hadn't dry hopped, so there was no compelling need to cold crash. I'm with you though - I'd keep it as simple as possible if given the chance.

I've priced out kegging options, and it's just not in the cards yet. My wife has given me the thumbs up to make a keezer and start kegging, but I don't think she was aware of the up-front cost, especially if I go with Perlicks right off the bat. I'm OK with bottling for now, but we'll see what happens over the next year or so.

Thanks for the well wishes. I plan to bottle this afternoon (with new bottling equipment), so hopefully all goes well! I'll definitely report back...

 

[eluterio]

I convinced my wife that it would save time and saving time would mean spending time with her. A great way to start out with kegging is get the kegs first. Find them where ever you can and make sure no root beer infused kegs. From what Ive been told you cant get the root beer out and it infuses with your beer. Get your CO2 tank and regulator at the same time or next. Ounce you get your freezer to convert into your keezer and don't have the funds to get your taps. Use the poor mans version and get picnic taps cheap and it works. Just have to adjust the co2 pressure so you don't get too much foam. Piece by piece and for some great advice get multiple ball lock disconnects that are non barbed. They are a few bucks more but you can change out when your cleaning. I have 2 for each keg at my place.

Kind of hijacked the thread sorry but good luck!!

 

[justenoughforme]

eluterio i'm not the OP, but as someone who wants a cheap keg option, that was super useful for me.

 

[brewcat]

Just a few questions that you should clarify:

• How long have you been fermenting? Is the beer actually finished? FG reading?
• How much priming sugar did you use and what type? I see 2.5 volumes, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. 4.5 ounces of corn sugar?
• What temp was the beer when bottled? What temp were they being stored?
• What was the actual flavor of these beers? A bite doesn't really tell us anything. A bite could be from too much hop. Or too little maturing.

Yeah replace your plastic. But also look into your whole bottling process. Usually a weighed 4 ounces is the most I'll do with corn sugar.

 

[Brew_G]

eluterio...I'm liking your thinking, and I've definitely contemplated that. I might just do that if I can ever find kegs for a decent price.

Just a few questions that you should clarify:

• How long have you been fermenting? Is the beer actually finished? FG reading?
• How much priming sugar did you use and what type? I see 2.5 volumes, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. 4.5 ounces of corn sugar?
• What temp was the beer when bottled? What temp were they being stored?
• What was the actual flavor of these beers? A bite doesn't really tell us anything. A bite could be from too much hop. Or too little maturing.

Yeah replace your plastic. But also look into your whole bottling process. Usually a weighed 4 ounces is the most I'll do with corn sugar.

1) I primary for about three weeks, and gravity samples are steady before I bottle.

2) Depends on the beer, but anywhere from 4.1-4.4 oz of corn sugar.

3) Generally bottled at 66-70F and kept at 72F, give or take a couple degrees.

4) By bite, I don't mean bitterness, but almost like the beer cuts into your tongue. For the second of the three, the flavor actually mellowed a wee bit after six weeks or so in the fridge. The last one was, quite frankly, awful. A bite, a sourness (but not in a good way), and the "beer flavor" was really muted.

Interesting that you only go to 4 oz of dextrose. That seems a little low to me, but who am I to judge?!

I'll be bottling my most recent batch tomorrow...as soon as I replace the new bottling spigot I busted this afternoon!