three hour boil scottish ale

[TrickyDick]

Hello

A friend mentioned he liked a scottish ale called piper down by Ballast Point.
I looked at the website and gives some sketchy detail about the beer.
Says Marris Otter and Roasted barley are used with a three hour wort boil.
Referring to Brewing Classic Styles, there are two scottish ale recipes. One had a carmelization designation using the same two malts and calls for removing one gallon (of five) to concentrate and carmelize the wort then add back to main wort.
I am wondering if there is a method to perform a full wort boil for three hours to obtain a similar result of creating complex carmelized sugars for a complex and robust malt profile in the finished beer.
I can't find much and thought I would post here about this method and if anyone has experience doing this and could share/elaborate/etc to help me and others out.

Thanks!

TD

 

[ChelisHubby]

Piper down is a excellent beer but trying to recreate it will be very difficult. Ballast point does not give enough info to even get you close. the three hr boil is but a small part as you need to know. what bittering and crystals and basic malts were used. Then you will have to guess at what percentages the malts were. THe idea for caramelization is to take a the base malt and cook a percentage down to change the flavor. how long you cook this small amount and how large the amount was decides what your flavor will be. THere are many scottish 80 recipes around and they would be where to start. The three hr boil will just darken the beer and contribute very little to the flavor. it is how much of the base malts and the time cooked that is the devil.

 

[jjeffers09]

Could be a really fun experiment. I would see running a couple 1 gal batches at a time until you get it right, then scale up and try again...

 

[TrickyDick]

Piper down is a excellent beer but trying to recreate it will be very difficult. Ballast point does not give enough info to even get you close. the three hr boil is but a small part as you need to know. what bittering and crystals and basic malts were used. Then you will have to guess at what percentages the malts were. THe idea for caramelization is to take a the base malt and cook a percentage down to change the flavor. how long you cook this small amount and how large the amount was decides what your flavor will be. THere are many scottish 80 recipes around and they would be where to start. The three hr boil will just darken the beer and contribute very little to the flavor. it is how much of the base malts and the time cooked that is the devil.

Appreciate the feedback.

You think that it's a full wort three hour boil or just a portion of the wort to obtain carmelization of the wort sugars?

As far as specialty malt used, I've seen recipes which call for the base malt (Maris Otter) and one other specialty "malt" - roasted barley! Wondering if that is steeped in the run-off rather than mashed as well. I'm thinking that it's the process the develops the flavor profile, not the malts. My reasoning for this is that there seem to be two routes to go in making a Scottish ale: quick brew day using a one hour boil and appropriate specialty malt; slow using just base plus roasted barley but prolonging the boil to carmelization point of wort sugars.

I'm thinking I should probably get that Scottish ale book and do a bit of research.

TD

 

[BaylessBrewer]

Here's where I would start:
2.5# MO
.5-.75oz roast barley
Mash 60min @154, ph 5.4 @ 1qt/lb and sparge with enough water to get you to about 2 gal.
Top off your brew kettle to 4.25gal and boil for 2hr. Add .25oz EKG and boil another 60 min.
Chill and pitch wyeast 1728 and ferment @60*F.
This should give you a beer that's around 1.058 OG, 1.017 FG, 5.6% ABV, 12-15+ SRM and 25 IBU.
Now of course this would be on my system and YMMV.
Good luck it sounds like fun!

 

[TrickyDick]

Here's where I would start:
2.5# MO
.5-.75oz roast barley
Mash 60min @154, ph 5.4 @ 1qt/lb and sparge with enough water to get you to about 2 gal.
Top off your brew kettle to 4.25gal and boil for 2hr. Add .25oz EKG and boil another 60 min.
Chill and pitch wyeast 1728 and ferment @60*F.
This should give you a beer that's around 1.058 OG, 1.017 FG, 5.6% ABV, 12-15+ SRM and 25 IBU.
Now of course this would be on my system and YMMV.
Good luck it sounds like fun!

You think those numbers add up?
Maybe you meant 12.5# not 2.5?
I brew 10 g batches 11 to fermenter.
TD.

 

[BaylessBrewer]

You think those numbers add up?

Maybe you meant 12.5# not 2.5?

I brew 10 g batches 11 to fermenter.

TD.

My apologies. I was throwing that out there for a 1gal test batch. My boil off is around 1 gal an hr. I know it's a lot of time but if it don't work out at least you only have one gallon of ****ty beer as opposed to 10.

 

[ChelisHubby]

Appreciate the feedback.

You think that it's a full wort three hour boil or just a portion of the wort to obtain carmelization of the wort sugars?

As far as specialty malt used, I've seen recipes which call for the base malt (Maris Otter) and one other specialty "malt" - roasted barley! Wondering if that is steeped in the run-off rather than mashed as well. I'm thinking that it's the process the develops the flavor profile, not the malts. My reasoning for this is that there seem to be two routes to go in making a Scottish ale: quick brew day using a one hour boil and appropriate specialty malt; slow using just base plus roasted barley but prolonging the boil to carmelization point of wort sugars.

I'm thinking I should probably get that Scottish ale book and do a bit of research.

TD

I really could only guess on the route they take to get the flavor. I would imagine that they take a small % of the wort and caramelize it. the 3 hr boil will in general help flavors to meld and darken the brew a small amount I tried to get close to piper one time and I boiled for over 2 hrs but I was a mile off. on flavor.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I bet you could speed up the process by putting a smaller portion of the boil into a pressure cooker.. Although some DMS precursors would build up, they would be boil off when added back into the boil.

 

[TrickyDick]

I bet you could speed up the process by putting a smaller portion of the boil into a pressure cooker.. Although some DMS precursors would build up, they would be boil off when added back into the boil.

In my experience, any sugar based product placed in a pressure cooker becomes scorched. For this reason I only use non sugar liquids in my cooker.
I've scraped and soaked and torched off too much charred material from the bottom of the cooker that I'd rather throw it out than try that again.

I decided to order that Scotch ale book to do some more research before attempting.

I looked at the winning NHC recipe for this category from last year. Has about five different malts and a two hour boil. Again not much help.

Thanks for the continued feedback. I'm going to see what other advice I get. Book is hopefully going to be on hand for the weekend.

TD

 

[MrFancyPlants]

In my experience, any sugar based product placed in a pressure cooker becomes scorched.

Good point, and I probably should not be making recommendations that I cannot back up with my own experiences. I remember reading about caramelizing honey in a pressure cooker, but I believe they recommended doing it in a canning jar in a water bath, in the pressure cooker. Maybe the same technique could be used with wart to prevent scorching.

 

[TrickyDick]

That idea might actually work, similar to pressure canning. I'm thinking a trial run with sugar or some DME...

TD

 

[ncbrewer]

I'm thinking that it's the process the develops the flavor profile, not the malts.

According to the Scottish Ale section of BJCP, Scottish ales are "Malt-focused ales that gain the vast majority of their character from specialty malts, never the process. Burning malt or wort sugars via ‘kettle caramelization’ is not traditional nor is any blatantly ‘butterscotch’ character." I've also read elsewhere (forget where) that your theory is right - longer boil and kettle caramelization are important. But I wanted to make you aware of the BJCP take on it. Good luck in your quest.

 

[serum]

Boiling off a portion of malt gives a very nice flavour. I do this instead of a 3 hour boil when I make Biere de garde because I don't have time for the long boil. It seems to work well. From what I understand it's all about melanoidins and decoction is another way to get those. Farmhouse ales covers long boils in the Biere de garde section so that might be worth a read despite it being a separate style.

Both amber Biere de garde and Scotch ales have that boiled sweet flavour so there are similarities. They also use clean ale yeasts and cool storage.

 

[TrickyDick]

Thanks.

I have that book and recall the section you mention.
Got the scottish ale book. Its interesting. There are No recipes even close in gravity to what I think of a easy quaffers.
Hopefully as I dig further there will be good infor on how to get the flavor through the process despites what someone posted about BJCP as far as ingredients, the book seems to go against that.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

So I'm thinking...

OG 1.050
GigaYeast GY44 (81% AE)
FG 1.009 or less.
ABV 5.4%

90% Maris Otter
10% Blend of various specialty malt incl

Roasted Barley (up to 4 oz for 10g)
C-40
C-80
C-120~150
Biscuit Malt (small amount)
Maybe a pinch of amber or brown malt or Victory malt
Maybe a pinch of melanoidin malt
​

3 hour boil

Fuggle Hops to balance sweetness and bit more for aroma/flavor

Don't think I'm going to be able to do a very thick mash (due to eBrew recirculated mash tun), 156-158º mash temps single infusion.

Long cool fermentation.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Reading through more of the noonan book about this style I'm learning a bit about the historical examples, which it seems has little to do with modern day examples!

For one thing, scotch ale and Scottish ale mean different things! Scotch ale is the strong 1.070+ Wee Heavy type. Scottish are weaker.
The color and flavor is derived not from crystal malt but from roast barley (500°L) comprising up to 3% of the grist!!
The beers were lagered, and fermentation terminated early to retain sweetness, or perhaps low AE strains couldn't handle any further fermentation at the low temps 50-65 degree fermentation!!!

TD.

 

[stonebrewer]

TD:

Some clues I found online for you on a BP website:

Our Piper Down Scottish Ale hits all the right notes for the Ballast Point Bagpipe Corps that inspired it. We created this very low hopped, malty ale for the band to enjoy using UK Maris Otter malt, roasted barley, UK hops and low fermentation temperatures. Then we let the brew’s sweet complexity build over a three-hour boil. Full of roasted caramel flavor, it’s a pub classic with Ballast Point personality.



Alc. By Vol.
5.8%

Bitterness
22 IBUs

 

[IrocChris]

I've brewed both methods from "Brewing Classic Styles" using the reference recipe, and much preferred the 1 gallon caramelization version. It's now on my rotation. There is no way a three hour boil would come close to mimicking reducing down a gallon of the first runnings (in reference to flavor or color). As others have mentioned, grain bill would be only way to do it. Advice: if you reduce a gallon, split it among 2 or 3 large pans and burners on your stovetop.

 

[TrickyDick]

Thanks. Yes I had seen that info as well.


So after finishing the book. Unimpressed with what I've learned.
Firstly, in my endeavor to clone a beer or produce a reasonable attempt at a similar flavor profile, the book offers little help.
First off, the recipes are either 7+ %Abv or 4.5% or less. Nothing in the territory I am looking for.

Next it talks about historical beers, but this isn't directly relevant to my plight. Where it seems to be, the provided recipes don't seem to take heed of that advice.

In the end I think I'm going to look through NHC gold medal recipes from the last few years of my archives of zymurgy and go from there.

What I have established, is that the long boil is not what Scottish ales would have historically done. 90 minutes tops. You can begin immediately heating once risk of scorching in the kettle is eliminated by adequate volume while collecting the runoff. Heating at full output to being some carmelization.

Going to use Maris otter with up to 8 percent blend of crystal and roasted barley and maybe a bit of Amber malt up to 5 percent. Possible use a bit of biscuit malt. Fuggles for hopping in a single dose. Again the book regarding hopping says in two locations.
All hops between 45-60 minutes before kettle strike. And it also says to add one fourth charge just before it comes to boil to reduce surface tension and limit boilover.
Great respect for Noonan's lager book, this one, not so much...

On thing I will do is to pick a yeast that will give 70% AE about and calculate for a 5.8% fina ABV to determine my OG. Mash high 156.
Ferment low 50-65° and use hybrid or lager pitch rates.

Kind of sounds like it is closer to an amber bock with reduced hop use than any other style.


I'll pose my final recipe and pics when I'm done for giggles.

TD.

 

[TrickyDick]

I've brewed both methods from "Brewing Classic Styles" using the reference recipe, and much preferred the 1 gallon caramelization version. It's now on my rotation. There is no way a three hour boil would come close to mimicking reducing down a gallon of the first runnings (in reference to flavor or color). As others have mentioned, grain bill would be only way to do it. Advice: if you reduce a gallon, split it among 2 or 3 large pans and burners on your stovetop.

I read that too.
Did you use ONLY the roast barley for that carmelization version as it was written?

While I can appreciate history, I also appreciate modern methods and results. I'm not using a windmill to crush my grains or home malting burning peat here.

I'm sort of torn between the carmelization from the book you referenced, vs a mix of specialty malts or perhaps a hybrid of those methods. Want to research a few recipes before deciding. Seems from what you are saying that the carmelization Trick was the better way. In the book, it was said that the scots eschewed use of crystal malt as that would be the British way to do it, whereas roasted barley would be what scots would use. That said, a source from the brewery making piper down suggested a blend of C40/80/135 not more than 10%. So I'm thinking to try that as well. With a 90 minute boil and a carmelization of the first gallon of runnings. Wondering if I should increase the volume of first runnings used for carmelization since I'm going to a ten gallon finished batch.

Thanks!

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Does anybody know the FG for ballast point piper down??

Thanks!

TD