Three different beers, improved process, same off-aroma/flavor?

[zakdrummond]

Hey all,

Despite having read maybe too much and having listened to maybe too many podcasts I haven't actually pulled the trigger on brewing very often at home. I'm brewing 3 gallon BIAB batches on my stovetop, have a temp controlled fermentation fridge and for my first two beers I attempted bottling. This was about a year ago, two different saisons, different malt bills, different yeast strains, whole nine. But they both came out with a wine-y/cider-y character. After the second one came out tasting too much like the first I dumped them both, tucked the gear away in the closet and went back to drinking trusty commercial beer.

So, fast forward and I'm currently working in the tap room of a brewery, hoping to move onto the production side because I cannot shake my fascination with brewing. I truly love it. I needed to give homebrewing another shot. This time I attempted a Berliner Weisse-style beer. Grew my lacto starter from Good Belly, got the pH to drop to a point where I was happy, fermented with Sacc Trois, pretty much followed the Milk the Funk recipe. Decided I was going to cut bottling out of my life so I picked up a 2.5 gallon torpedo keg and while transferring to the keg noticed the same aroma that had haunted my first two attempts last year. What the hell is going on? Is this common elsewhere besides my kitchen? What could I be doing wrong? I'd love to hear some of your suggestions because it doesn't look like I'm giving up on brewing anytime soon and it'd be great if some of my beers started to become something I'd like to actually drink!

Thanks for your time and advice

 

[RustyHorn]

Hey all,

Despite having read maybe too much and having listened to maybe too many podcasts I haven't actually pulled the trigger on brewing very often at home. I'm brewing 3 gallon BIAB batches on my stovetop, have a temp controlled fermentation fridge and for my first two beers I attempted bottling. This was about a year ago, two different saisons, different malt bills, different yeast strains, whole nine. But they both came out with a wine-y/cider-y character. After the second one came out tasting too much like the first I dumped them both, tucked the gear away in the closet and went back to drinking trusty commercial beer.

So, fast forward and I'm currently working in the tap room of a brewery, hoping to move onto the production side because I cannot shake my fascination with brewing. I truly love it. I needed to give homebrewing another shot. This time I attempted a Berliner Weisse-style beer. Grew my lacto starter from Good Belly, got the pH to drop to a point where I was happy, fermented with Sacc Trois, pretty much followed the Milk the Funk recipe. Decided I was going to cut bottling out of my life so I picked up a 2.5 gallon torpedo keg and while transferring to the keg noticed the same aroma that had haunted my first two attempts last year. What the hell is going on? Is this common elsewhere besides my kitchen? What could I be doing wrong? I'd love to hear some of your suggestions because it doesn't look like I'm giving up on brewing anytime soon and it'd be great if some of my beers started to become something I'd like to actually drink!

Thanks for your time and advice

It could be many things... what water are you using?

 

[zakdrummond]

It could be many things... what water are you using?

Right, there are so many details to cover I didn't want to ramble on and on for my first post. I'm using Bru'n Water to build from distilled. I've used the "Yellow Balanced" profile for all three batches. I live in LA, and in part of the city where my water source will change from time to time, so I figured this was the best way to be consistent in that regard.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Can you describe the odd aroma a bit more? Having a hard time pin pointing what exactly you're smelling

 

[zakdrummond]

Can you describe the odd aroma a bit more? Having a hard time pin pointing what exactly you're smelling

It is particularly cider-y, if "sweet" were an aroma I would say almost sweet. One of the saisons was fairly aggressively hopped and there was zero hop aroma after bottle conditioning. Until today I thought maybe the problem was oxidation from transfer to the bottling bucket but since there was no transfer of today's beer out of primary, and I noticed the same familiar aroma, I'm not sure what to think now.

 

[RustyHorn]

Right, there are so many details to cover I didn't want to ramble on and on for my first post. I'm using Bru'n Water to build from distilled. I've used the "Yellow Balanced" profile for all three batches. I live in LA, and in part of the city where my water source will change from time to time, so I figured this was the best way to be consistent in that regard.

So it won't be what I was thinking (chlorine - that's not usually cidery but it's hard to know how good you are at describing the flavour you're getting!)
How often do you open the fermenter?

 

[zakdrummond]

So it won't be what I was thinking (chlorine - that's not usually cidery but it's hard to know how good you are at describing the flavour you're getting!)
How often do you open the fermenter?

It's absolutely within reason that I'm not nailing describing this aroma! Thanks for taking this trip with me, though. I don't open the fermenter until I take a FG reading. I wait for fermentation to visibly stop, give it another day or two, take my FG and transfer to bottling (or today a keg). While researching the Berliner I kegged today I was thinking about purging with CO2 but felt like maybe that would be overkill. I know plenty of homebrewers out there are making fantastic beer without this step.

 

[RustyHorn]

It's absolutely within reason that I'm not nailing describing this aroma! Thanks for taking this trip with me, though. I don't open the fermenter until I take a FG reading. I wait for fermentation to visibly stop, give it another day or two, take my FG and transfer to bottling (or today a keg). While researching the Berliner I kegged today I was thinking about purging with CO2 but felt like maybe that would be overkill. I know plenty of homebrewers out there are making fantastic beer without this step.

No problem. I can't promise I'll get to the bottom if it though... I'm almost already out of ideas! I'm sure someone with far superior knowledge will chip in.
Pitching yeast - could you be underpitching? That can cause fruity flavours.

 

[RustyHorn]

It's absolutely within reason that I'm not nailing describing this aroma! Thanks for taking this trip with me, though. I don't open the fermenter until I take a FG reading. I wait for fermentation to visibly stop, give it another day or two, take my FG and transfer to bottling (or today a keg). While researching the Berliner I kegged today I was thinking about purging with CO2 but felt like maybe that would be overkill. I know plenty of homebrewers out there are making fantastic beer without this step.

Also, how quickly do you bottle in terms of time? Young beer van take on an apple - green type flavour.

 

[zakdrummond]

No problem. I can't promise I'll get to the bottom if it though... I'm almost already out of ideas! I'm sure someone with far superior knowledge will chip in.
Pitching yeast - could you be underpitching? That can cause fruity flavours.

You know, that's something else I thought could've been happening. With the small batch size for my first two beers I just pitched straight from vile/smack pack.. if I remember correctly I used Wyeast for one batch and WL for the other. With this Berliner I had a 1L starter for both lacto and sacc pitches. It's obviously a bummer because I'm so fascinated by the process but if it's always gonna result in weird beer (and not weird in a good way) I should probably move along. Maybe I just switch to making cider.

 

[RustyHorn]

You know, that's something else I thought could've been happening. With the small batch size for my first two beers I just pitched straight from vile/smack pack.. if I remember correctly I used Wyeast for one batch and WL for the other. With this Berliner I had a 1L starter for both lacto and sacc pitches. It's obviously a bummer because I'm so fascinated by the process but if it's always gonna result in weird beer (and not weird in a good way) I should probably move along. Maybe I just switch to making cider.

Don't give up!
I'll have a little think...

 

[RustyHorn]

Are you oxygenating your wort and giving the beer time to clean up off flavours after fermentation?

 

[whiskeyjack]

Whats your fermentation schedule look like? I noticed a twang taste in my brews when young sometimes

 

[divrack]

Cidery wine taste could be acetaldehyde I guess which should clear up unless it's bad but should only be bad if you under pitch which you didn't.
Bad fermentation temp might be a factor, infection could be a factor.
Sherry taste is classic oxidation but I don't see how you'd get that so soon.
There is a certain taste that comes from beer being fresh which I like that you don't get in older commercial products.
Don't understand why the hop flavor would be low either.

 

[divrack]

Hey all,

Despite having read maybe too much and having listened to maybe too many podcasts I haven't actually pulled the trigger on brewing very often at home. I'm brewing 3 gallon BIAB batches on my stovetop, have a temp controlled fermentation fridge and for my first two beers I attempted bottling. This was about a year ago, two different saisons, different malt bills, different yeast strains, whole nine. But they both came out with a wine-y/cider-y character. After the second one came out tasting too much like the first I dumped them both, tucked the gear away in the closet and went back to drinking trusty commercial beer.

So, fast forward and I'm currently working in the tap room of a brewery, hoping to move onto the production side because I cannot shake my fascination with brewing. I truly love it. I needed to give homebrewing another shot. This time I attempted a Berliner Weisse-style beer. Grew my lacto starter from Good Belly, got the pH to drop to a point where I was happy, fermented with Sacc Trois, pretty much followed the Milk the Funk recipe. Decided I was going to cut bottling out of my life so I picked up a 2.5 gallon torpedo keg and while transferring to the keg noticed the same aroma that had haunted my first two attempts last year. What the hell is going on? Is this common elsewhere besides my kitchen? What could I be doing wrong? I'd love to hear some of your suggestions because it doesn't look like I'm giving up on brewing anytime soon and it'd be great if some of my beers started to become something I'd like to actually drink!

Thanks for your time and advice

I don't suppose you're doing anything crazy like slushing hot wort about before it's cooled? Even then though I've had cause to oxygenate hot wort a tonne and no noticable off tastes.
The worst I've had is probably a lager I underpitched which was super green banana skin flavour and which persisted when I used the yeast again stupidly. So I don't know if it was an infection or what but it was rank
But under pitching is pretty hard for ales, there's a lot of evidence to say a single pack is totally fine for 5gal.
Next time try scrubbing everything in straight bleach, rinsing well then Rub with straight starsan and soak.
And just try a simple pale recipe with a pack of dry yeast straight in.

 

[thehaze]

You still haven't told us the grainbill, ABV, yeast, water profile, mash temp., fermentation temp., etc.

I could guess something goes wrong after you have brewed the beer: so it's a combination of yeast, pitch rate, yeast fermentation temp. and schedule, etc.

 

[seatazzz]

Sounds like acetaldehyde to me as well. Yeast will clean that up after they're done with primary fermentation, as long as your pitch rate was good (seems to be) and your temps are correct (seems to be also). You might be packaging too soon for the style. As to no hop flavor, the acetaldehyde can overpower that if there's enough left. Give your beer more time to clean up after itself, and you will probably see some improvement.

 

[zakdrummond]

Sorry all, I appreciate all of your insight! As a new member of HBT I can only post five times a day so had to wait a bit to come back. Yesterday I brewed again, paying attention to my process and noting any areas that could use improvement or could lead to questionable beer quality.

I'm thinking there is one obvious flaw: wort chilling. I'm currently chilling in an ice bath (I just ordered an immersion chiller yesterday so if this IS the issue hopefully it'll be resolved on my next beer). I haven't actually timed how long it takes to bring from a boil to pitching temp but it's definitely awhile. A hell of a lot longer than I want it to be. Could this be the cause of all of my trouble?

Second question, I've been building my water from distilled with Bru'n Water but I've been using tap water (which contains chloramine) to mix my Star San. Is there any chance this could be leading to this particular off-flavor?

RustyHorn, I have been oxygenating (shaking the hell out of my carboy) and I think I've given all of these beers plenty of time to finish fermentation. I'm always hitting my FG.

whiskeyjack, this last beer was 2 days with lacto to drop pH to mid 3s, pitching my sacc strain and fermenting for 3 weeks. I would've actually kegged earlier but I was out of town at a wedding.

divrack, having read up on off-flavors last night the only description that comes close is acetaldehyde. It's got to be that, I just need to narrow down where it is coming from. I think I've got fermentation temp dialed in. Always pitching at proper temp and monitoring temp with a thermowell in the carboy. I've considered infection.. could my entire kitchen be infected with something that is making its way into all of my attempted beers? That feels like I'm just looking for an excuse. I will admit with my very low grade cooling system (ice bath) I've been known to stir the cooling wort, trying to get it down as fast as possible. Could this be responsible for the suspected acetaldehyde?

thehaze, this last beer was 50/50 light pils/wheat DME (I went extract for this batch because I was hoping to concentrate on the kettle souring aspect), soured with lactobacillus plantarum to mid-3s, pitched a 1L starter of sacc trois, looking for a final ABV of 3.8, water profile was yellow balanced from Bru'n Water (Ca 50, Mg 7, Na 5, SO4 75, Cl 60), pitched my lacto starter at 95 and let it drop naturally, pitched sacc starter at 70 and held it there for 3 weeks, dropped to 38 and kegged.

seatazzz, I think I'm going to do exactly that. I'm surprised to read so many posts and articles about people flying from brew day to kegging and having a good beer as the result. I think maybe my aspirations are overshadowing my skill level. I'm going to attempt a pale ale for my next beer and focus on the basics.

Thanks again to all of you! I really appreciate it. I'll keep you posted.

 

[whiskeyjack]

Take a bottle to your brewery and see if they can taste it.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I'm not going to be popular with this post, but it need saying.

two different saisons...I dumped them both, tucked the gear away in the closet...

hoping to move onto the production side because I cannot shake my fascination with brewing. I truly love it....

a Berliner Weisse-style beer...lacto....Sacc Trois...the Milk the Funk recipe

You love brewing so much you quit after two brews? There's lots of things that people love that they aren't very good at, certainly not good enough to do it professionally. Think of all the people who love golf but who would be thrashed by Tiger Woods.

I can see two warning signs here that you're maybe not cut out for commercial brewing - for one, we have evidence that you're a quitter, you don't have that near-OCD determination to figure out what went wrong. But also you're asking for advice over the internet about an off-flavour that you don't have enough experience to describe, yet you are in daily contact with professional brewers who would be able to tell you instantly.

So is this a sign you're trying to craft an image, you want to suddenly spring a great beer on them out of nowhere rather than have the honesty and humility to say "Look guys, I've a problem here, can you help?". That second group are the colleagues you want to work with - trust me, you don't want the people who are all about front and image. We had one guy at work who was technically superb but it soon became clear why he hadn't held down any job for more than a year, he would have been great if he worked as hard at his job as he did at polishing his ego. Some workplaces are toxic enough for that kind of thing to succeed, but they're not the kind of place that you'd want to work.

Another bad sign is your approach to troubleshooting. You've had 100% dumpers, both "cidery" - which means probably infected, possibly too much sugar (we've not seen a recipe, but seems unlikely) or fermented too hot (have you actually checked/calibrated the thermostat on your chamber?). So obviously you do a Berliner weisse, with :

Low hopping - so more likely to get infected
A weird yeast - Sacc Trois was classified originally as Brett based on its phenotype, it will be contributing a whole load of confusing flavours
Extra steps - more opportunity for things to go wrong
Bacteria
Bacteria from a non-brewing source - as the White Labs diastaticus thing showed, even brewing suppliers don't do all the tests they could for brewing-relevant contaminants.

How on earth will all this help identify the root cause of the problem?

I get it, Berliner weissen are "cool", you want to impress your beer-nerd colleagues - but you really need to learn the basics first because at the moment you can't even make palatable beer. Keep it simple, there's less to go wrong and any problems will be easier to diagnose. Just do a simple SMaSH with a Chico or WLP090 or something - not only is it a great way to hone your technique, it also offers a great baseline for learning about different yeast and hops. Once you've mastered that, then you can start getting complicated with saisons and sours.

 

[ESBrewer]

Yes, start with some simple beer and be more patient. Yes, I know that it can be frustrating but you will soon figure out all the problems and you'll learn how to avoid those. Pitch enough yeast and make sure it is healthy (use a starter with liquid yeasts), give the beer enough time to mature (in the fermenter and especially in the bottles), pay attention to the (initial) fermentation temperature (it is usually higher than ambient temperature so you may need more cooling). Yes, leave the trub in the boil kettle and avoid introducing oxygen to the vessels post fermentation. Keep everything clean to prevent contaminations, heat up everything you can to destroy harmful microbes and sanitize well.

 

[zakdrummond]

You guys are absolutely right. I am embarrassed to bring a problem beer into the brewery to get help. That's just the plain truth. I figured I was jumping into the deep end with the Berliner attempt but it's what I had been reading about and drinking at the time so I took a stab at it, and at the very least I'm hoping it was another learning experience. The places where I assume there are gaps in my process (particularly wort chilling) will be resolved by this weekend and I'm going to take a shot at a simple pale ale recipe. Start with the basics and build a proper foundation.

Northern Brewer, I definitely respect your message. More than not wanting to be viewed as a bad brewer I don't want to be viewed as a quitter. This is definitely something I want to invest my time, effort and money into and I'm not going to get better by only reading. I've got to crank out some of these bad beers to dial in my process and learn how to make things go my way. Then I can start building the beers I want to be drinking. Thanks for the honesty.

Thanks again to you all, I'll be back with an update!

 

[RustyHorn]

You guys are absolutely right. I am embarrassed to bring a problem beer into the brewery to get help. That's just the plain truth. I figured I was jumping into the deep end with the Berliner attempt but it's what I had been reading about and drinking at the time so I took a stab at it, and at the very least I'm hoping it was another learning experience. The places where I assume there are gaps in my process (particularly wort chilling) will be resolved by this weekend and I'm going to take a shot at a simple pale ale recipe. Start with the basics and build a proper foundation.

Northern Brewer, I definitely respect your message. More than not wanting to be viewed as a bad brewer I don't want to be viewed as a quitter. This is definitely something I want to invest my time, effort and money into and I'm not going to get better by only reading. I've got to crank out some of these bad beers to dial in my process and learn how to make things go my way. Then I can start building the beers I want to be drinking. Thanks for the honesty.

Thanks again to you all, I'll be back with an update!

Good lad. I've full respect for you for not taking that message the wrong way and returning fire. Some faith in humans is restored!

 

[seatazzz]

I jumped in too late to give my comments, but I agree with RustyHorn...kudos to you, seeing the helpfulness in the criticisms offered. I too would recommend starting with something simple...perhaps a SMaSH or a tried and true clone recipe, just to get your process dialled in. Very few of us produce something absolutely incredible in our first try (or second, or third, or tenth). It's a learning process, even if you start with the most expensive homebrewing setup you can buy. Drink what you brew, learn from your mistakes, read HBT religiously, and it will all fall into place shortly.

I see way too many ads on Craigslist and OfferUp for beginner brewing setups, where the owner got discouraged. I'm 50 years old and just started homebrewing 2 years ago, if I had quit after my first few failures (I say "few", but there have been many more than that) I wouldn't be sitting here enjoying a perfectly carbed and delicious beer of my own brewing.

 

[don_bran321]

How are you hopping these beers? It sounds like it's on the sweet side which is a problem that I first had when I was batching on the stove.
If you are using a muslin bag try throwing the hops in loose or get a hop basket.
Muslin bags really hold back hope flavor if you don't get a lot of heat.
I would also invest in a propane burner of at least 55000 btus.
The heat really makes a difference in breaking down proteinns in the wort.
My last problem is that I was under pitching yeast as well. I use the pitch rate calculator on northern brewer now and I hit every time.