Thoughts on Secondary Fermenting

[Puddlethumper]

Thanks. It's looking up. Looks like we can go back to work tomorrow after being stuck at home all day (part of it w/o power) due to a nasty ice storm. Pretty bad. Lots of folks got stranded overnight in their cars on I-20.

Dang! Good that you can get back to making the bucks. Didn't realize you'd get that bad of weather though as far south as you are. Must have been a lousy bad storm.

I hate the politics here in California but sure don't miss the mid-western winters!

My son-in-law is flying into San Antonio today for an interview at the hospital. Hope he can get in and out OK.

Cheers

 

[kombat]

How does disturbing the beer by transferring it between vessels mid-process result in a clearer beer at the end, all other factors being held equal?

Because you're getting it off the yeast cake at the bottom of the primary fermenter and reducing the chance of stirring more of the yeast/trub back up

But that doesn't make any sense. A yeast cake at the bottom of the fermenter doesn't prevent yeast above it from settling out. And why would you be any less likely to "stir up yeast/trub" when racking it to secondary than you would if you racked it to the bottling bucket? Either way, you're risking stirring it up, except if you just left it in primary the whole time, the yeast cake would be more compacted (from not being disturbed) and *less* likely to be dislodged.

Plus, when you go to rack or bottle from the secondary there will be less trub in the bottom.

Less than what? When it was in primary? Of course. But if you're racking properly (top-down), you won't be sucking up whatever's at the bottom anyway.

Think about it logically. You brew a batch of beer and put it in a fermenter. For the next 2-7 days, it ferments. Stuff inside the fermenter is swirling around vigorously. Then it finishes fermenting, and things start to settle out onto the bottom of the fermenter. The currents and turbulence inside the fermenter subsides and the beer becomes still. Particulates precipitate out. Particles that were already near the bottom when the swirling stopped don't have to fall far, so they reach the bottom quickly. Particles that were near the top, however, have to fall through the whole volume of beer, so they take longer. The beer slowly starts clearing, from the top down. That is, the top looks clearer than the bottom.

In scenario 1, you just leave it in the fermenter until you're ready to bottle. So after 3 weeks and a cold-crash, pretty much everything that is going to settle out has reached the bottom and compacted into a tight yeast bed. The beer is clear. You carefully rack it to the bottling bucket, keeping the tip of the siphon just below the surface of the beer, and you get very clear beer into your bottling bucket.

In scenario 2, you rack it to secondary after 2 weeks. At this point, the top part of the beer is clearer than the bottom half, because (as described before) of the particles falling through the beer to the bottom. You rack to another fermenter, but in doing so, you cause any particles that haven't made it all the way to the bottom to instead be redistributed evenly throughout the beer again. Some of the particles that had made it almost all the way to the bottom now have to start all over again from the very top. And if we're keeping the same timeline as scenario 1, then they only have 1 week to do it.

Secondarying to "clear the beer" just doesn't make any logical sense. There are other good reasons to secondary your beer, sure, but "clarity" is not one of them. If anything, it's detrimental to clarity, all other factors (mainly time) being held equal.

 

[masonsjax]

Like I said before, for people that are clumsy in their racking process, it might result in less sediment into the bottle, but claiming that it helps clear the beer is nonsense. It's like telling people to always set their cruise control on the highway at 40 mph, that way you get where you're going faster, "cause I tried both ways and when I drove fast, I got there late". Yeah well you forgot to mention that you drove 90 and swerved the whole time, had an accident and got pulled over. If you drive carefully near the speed limit you will get where you're going quickly and safely.

For the record I dont rack top down, I start the siphon from about midway into the carboy, then use an orange carboy lid to set the end of my racking cane exactly where I want it.

 

[Puddlethumper]

We've tried to have this conversation with Kombat in the past to no avail. He can't seem to get a handle on the idea that there is a fundamental difference between beer clarity and sediment in the bottom of a bottle. I remain confused by this because he seems to be experienced enough to understand that these are two completely different issues.

I don't recall anyone ever saying that moving beer to a settling tank or secondary (as you wish) yields a clearer beer. Beer clarity will be what it will be regardless of moving it to a settling tank. Although I'm sure we are all aware that some very highly regarded brewers do choose to use a secondary vessel to add finings (which do improve clarity). This move is done, I would assume, as a matter of convenience and, perhaps, to reduce the exposed surface area of the beer during the fining process to mitigate the chance of oxidation.

And yes, some of us are better and more patient at racking than others. That is where the sediment issue comes into play. I would gather from your posts that you and Kombat consider your racking skills to be very good. You are satisfied that you can move the beer from a primary to a bottling bucket and take very little yeast cake and trub along with it. Wonderful! Congratulations on your skills.

Others of us find we get better results when we rack the beer to a settling tank, leave it there for a few more days or a week, add finings if desired, then rack to bottling bucket or keg.

I think that the overriding idea here should be that there is seldom one "absolutely right" way to do this. Just because someone has found another way to arrive at the satisfactory goal doesn't mean he is wrong. Following your analogy of the driver, if we are both going to the same meeting and you choose to take the freeway and I choose the rural route, you probably will get there faster and burn less fuel. I, on the other hand, may have had a chance to stop and take a picture or pick up some local produce at a farm stand. Was either of us completely "right" or completely "wrong" in making the choice we made?

 

[masonsjax]

Well said. Thanks.

[Edit] Btw, I don't believe these two issues are as different as you think they are. Clear beer into a bottle will yield less sediment than cloudy beer will, that's the point. Disturbing the beer by transferring to another vessel is taking a step backward with regard to clearing your beer.

All that said, sure you're welcome to take the scenic route if you desire. My secret is keging so sediment is much smaller concern than if I was a bottler.

 

[kombat]

We've tried to have this conversation with Kombat in the past to no avail. He can't seem to get a handle on the idea that there is a fundamental difference between beer clarity and sediment in the bottom of a bottle. I remain confused by this because he seems to be experienced enough to understand that these are two completely different issues.

Well, you got one part right: You're definitely confused.

Of course there is a fundamental difference between beer clarity and sediment in the bottom of the bottle. I've personally explained this difference in other threads. I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that I reject the fact that they're different.

For the record, sediment in the bottle is created during bottle carbing, and is a product of a small fermentation cycle by the yeast inside the bottle. They multiply, and settle out in the bottom of the bottle. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I ever thought otherwise.

I don't recall anyone ever saying that moving beer to a settling tank or secondary (as you wish) yields a clearer beer.

mcangeli did, just a few posts above this one, in his response to one of my posts. Are you even reading this thread, or just making up facts from a hazy memory of discussions we've had in other threads?

For the record, again, I asked, "How does disturbing the beer by transferring it between vessels mid-process result in a clearer beer at the end, all other factors being held equal?" To which mcangeli responded, "Because you're getting it off the yeast cake at the bottom of the primary fermenter and reducing the chance of stirring more of the yeast/trub back up," clearly implying he believes that doing so produces a clearer beer at the end.

I'm happy to debate this factually with you, but I can't sit here and let you put words in my mouth.

 

[Paradigm]

Thanks. It's looking up. Looks like we can go back to work tomorrow after being stuck at home all day (part of it w/o power) due to a nasty ice storm. Pretty bad. Lots of folks got stranded overnight in their cars on I-20.

In Texas? Dang, weather's getting weird when there's an ice storm in Texas and it's sunny in New Hampshire

 

[Puddlethumper]

In Texas? Dang, weather's getting weird when there's an ice storm in Texas and it's sunny in New Hampshire

Seems to me I heard someone say that Texas is the only state in the Union where you can be up to your knees in mud with dust blowing in your face.

Maybe we'd better check with BigFloyd regarding the accuracy of that observation.

Cheers!

 

[Puddlethumper]

Well said. Thanks.

[Edit] Btw, I don't believe these two issues are as different as you think they are. Clear beer into a bottle will yield less sediment than cloudy beer will, that's the point. My secret is keging so sediment is much smaller concern than if I was a bottler.

You won't find any disagreement here on either point. I only speak from my own experience + what I have learned from a few others, and I can see that care taken in all the processes from boil to bottle will yield a clearer beer and carbonating with sugar will definitely create its own sediment in the bottle. That being said, careful racking will also take up far less of the trub and yeast-cake when moving the beer to a bottling bucket or any other vessel. I suspect that our affinity for auto-siphons creates a lot of the sediment issues we complain about.

And I completely agree that kegging makes a lot of this discussion moot.

My concern is the near frenetic response one stirs up when the idea of using a secondary vessel is brought up. (Hence all of the threads on this particular topic.) Its as though Palmer, et. al. have said something they never actually intended. In reading what they have written I gather that the traditional concept that "secondary fermentation" for a couple of weeks following "primary", once considered SOP is no longer the best practice. From what I can see their views are pretty universally accepted. I have yet to read a post on this forum written by someone who advocates that practice.

However, I also have not read anything written by any of the "brewing gurus" that indicates the use of a secondary vessel for settling, dry hopping, adding oak cubes or fruit, introduction of fining agents, cold crashing, or long-term aging is a bad idea. Instead, most of what I have gathered to date indicates all of the above are very excellent reasons FOR the use of a secondary vessel.

In his latest book David Miller suggests the use of a secondary vessel as a settling tank when adding fining agents and during cold crashing. This makes a lot of sense to me since it reduces the surface area of the beer that is exposed to o2 once the mythical co2 blanket dissipates. And again, what little trub is in the bottom of that 5 gal. carboy after cold crashing is not very likely to end up in either a bottling bucket or a keg, even if we use an auto-siphon.

If I'm missing something here I'd sure like to hear what it is and why.

Cheers!

 

[hharborbrew]

Are the Brew Master kits technically a partial grain brewing kit, since some one them involve steeping the grains in a grain bag. Or would that then be considered a BIAB brew?

 

[Kevin-K]

Hello all, I'm a newbie on batch 8. I have been racking to a secondary since I started and the beers have turned out great. Though, I'm only kegging which would sort of help the sediment issue after the first pour.

I'm really wanting to try this cold crash technique with using only a primary. My question is... after cold crashing, does the beer need to remain at a cold temperature, or can it come back up to 68ish for conditioning with developing off flavors?
Oh, and here's a picture of "Colleen's Wit", a Belgian Double I just racked into the keg about an hour ago.



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[rskelhorn]

This^^^^, except that I suggest to new brewers that they do the first hydro check at 13-14 days, another one 3-4 days later. If they're the same, you're good to prime/bottle.

If you have the means to do so, try cold crashing the primary after fermentation is done. I move mine into the 35-36*F for 5-7 days. It will do wonders for clearing the beer and still give you plenty of suspended yeast for bottle carbing.

Can you expand the cold crashing a bit for me?

Currently I ferment for ~2 weeks at 16C (60.8F)

I can bring my brew bucket into the crawlspace which is ~50F

Would it be worth doing this? It isn't as low as you suggest however.

Furthermore, even with cold crashing, are you saying that there will still be enough suspended yeast to carbonate? Would really hate to do it, then find out the yeast wasn't going to carb. for me

 

[Puddlethumper]

Can you expand the cold crashing a bit for me?

Currently I ferment for ~2 weeks at 16C (60.8F)

I can bring my brew bucket into the crawlspace which is ~50F

Would it be worth doing this? It isn't as low as you suggest however.

Furthermore, even with cold crashing, are you saying that there will still be enough suspended yeast to carbonate? Would really hate to do it, then find out the yeast wasn't going to carb. for me

I'll let BigFloyd take a shot at your question about the 50F temp being adequate for cold crashing, but as far as the suspended yeast is concerned, yes there will be plenty.

 

[BigFloyd]

I'll let BigFloyd take a shot at your question about the 50F temp being adequate for cold crashing, but as far as the suspended yeast is concerned, yes there will be plenty.

Never having cold crashed at 50*F, I couldn't say for sure how well that would work. It couldn't hurt.

I'd encourage you to give it 7-10 day at that temp and see how it does. Just be really careful moving it between there and where you plan to rack to the bottling bucket so that you don't slosh it around and disturb the yeast cake.

 

[Croyzen]

Secondary if you will be adding something like dry hops, fruit, etc AND you want to wash/reuse the yeast. Otherwise, all that can be done in a primary. Although racking an IPA onto whole leaf hops and not battling both the hops and trub/cake at bottle/keg time is also another good case for the secondary. Secondary if your primary fermentation vessel is a plastic bucket and you plan to let the beer sit for an extended period of time. It seems like the increased head space and the fact that buckets aren't always sealed air tight lead to the occasional infection when sitting for a while. I have no first hand experience with this though. Do not secondary because a beer kit tells you to. Do not secondary to "let the flavors mellow." You're more likely to get some off flavor or infection for your troubles. Been there. I never never never take a gravity reading just to know if the beer is done fermenting. I have always used glass carboys and after watching several batches ferment it's easy to see when a beer is done. No airlock activity, krausen falls back into the beer, yeast flocs out, etc. When it looks done it usually sits a minimum of three days but most of the time a week or two until I have a chance to deal with it. I take the gravity reading when racking the beer off and have always been within right on or a couple points of the expected F.G. Fermenting at the right temps and rehydrating or making yeast starters and pitching the correct amount of yeast for your batch is all it takes. Of course if something looked wrong the refractometer would come out for a reading. Too stingy to take a hydro sample. Northern Brewer has a nice calculator you can use to get a gravity reading using a few drops onto a refractometer even after fermentation has begun. You just need the original brix and current brix. Checked it against the hydrometer the first time and it was correct so that's all I use now. Anyway, that's my 2 cents!

 

[Puddlethumper]

To avoid taking over this thread I figured it would be a good idea to start a fresh one that might help us sort some of this out. I'd like to invite anyone following this who is interested in figuring out if secondary vs. no secondary has any impact on beer clarity to visit "Why makes some beers clear or cloudy?" under General Techniques.

 

[jrgtr42]

I'm going to chime in here, and I know I'm going to repeat some things that have already been said.
There are some ups and downs to secondary. The up is that you can get clearer beer, the down is the risk of oxidizing or infecting it.
I personally do not rack to secondary unless I'm going to be bulk aging it for a long time, a course of months, on wood, fruit or souring. If I'm going to be dry-hopping, or short-term wood aging, I just toss into primary.
I find that the argument of clarity can be mitigated by a little care in racking to bottling.
I will move my fermenter to the spot I need it at least a couple hours before actually moving it to bottling bucket - this will give whatever got stirred up in movement time to settle back down.
Some people talk about yeast autolyzing (I messed that spelling up, I know) which is basically the yeast decomposing down there, but in the cases of 5, 10 gallon batches over a few weeks, it's not a worry.
My own schedule for brewing is to make a yeast starter roughly 36 hours ahead of pitching time. Fermentation I leave be for 3 weeks. I will check the beer morning and evening for the first 48 hours or so, to make sure something is going on (I do not open the lid; that way is just asking for infection) and then maybe a couple times a week to make sure that the liquid in my airlock is still there.
After about 18 days (usually the third Thursday since brewing, since I usually end up brewing Sunday) I'll pop the top to check gravity. What I do is just spin the hydrometer in the bucket. I will drop it in sanitizer, make sure it's completely submerged for a few minutes, and then handle it as little as possible by the very very top.
I'll get the reading, then seal it back up. When it's bottling day, I'll check the gravity again the same way before moving the bucket to my kitchen counter.
boil and cool priming sugar, put that in the bottling bucket, then siphon the beer into it, making sure it's swirling, but not splashing. I'm pretty careful not to get into the trub at the bottom.

 

[Puddlethumper]

Secondarying to "clear the beer" just doesn't make any logical sense. There are other good reasons to secondary your beer, sure, but "clarity" is not one of them. If anything, it's detrimental to clarity, all other factors (mainly time) being held equal.

Believe it or not, I completely agree with you (to a point). Moving the beer to improve clarity makes no sense at all since long-term clarity is not affected in any way by whether you choose to move the beer or leave it in primary.

Long-term clarity is affected by proteins (chill haze, etc), starches (improper or incomplete conversion), yeast, ingredients such as wheat, and in some cases oils. You can affect chill haze by cold crashing, but aside from that these agents will not change whether you move the beer or leave it alone to the point of serving out of the fermenter.

Temporary clarity is affected by yeast cake and other trub that is stirred up by movement, racking, or some other mechanical action. In the case of temporary clarity it really doesn't matter one way or the other if you move the beer after 5 days or 50 days. The stuff that is stirred up will eventually settle out in whatever vessel it was moved to, be it a 5 gal. carboy or a bottle.

 

[kombat]

There are some ups and downs to secondary. The up is that you can get clearer beer

How? How does disturbing the beer while things are settling out result in clearer beer in the end? Please explain how you think the science behind this works.

 

[hharborbrew]

Do you guys have a few general bottling techniques or tips?

Attempting to do my first bottling in less than a week. So far Ive read that racking from top down is important as well as calculating the correct amount of priming sugar. What is the typical storage time for the bottles once theyre capped and how long should they be chilled for after?

Cheers!

 

[kombat]

3 weeks at 70° F oughta carb 'em up nicely, if you did everything else right.

 

[shaggy727]

Get it off the yeast cake or leave it on are both correct. Personally I use a 5.5 gal secondary to free up my primary and to clarify my beer a little bit. Getting it off the yeast cake is kind of an old philosophy that should definitely be used if you are doing a long ferment but it doesn't really make too much of a difference if you are only going to keep it fermenting for under a month or so. If you end up using a secondary, spray everything down that can come in contact with starsan rinse less sanitizer. I keep a spray bottle on hand at all times just for such occasions.

 

[govner1]

I'm old & patient. & it has helped me make better beer ( IMHO). I secondary the majority of my beers even if I'm not dry hopping.
I also keg condition all my beers vs. force carbing. Not really much more effort or time but really gives a nicely carbed beer.
It's all about your personal preference & how much you like your end product.


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[Puddlethumper]

It's all about your personal preference & how much you like your end product.

Nicely said

 

[hharborbrew]

Okay guys one last question on fermenting i promise.

Im planning on leaving my batch in the primary for at least 2 weeks. When is the first time i should take a reading? I dont want to expose the batch to oxygen.

Whats the best way and most sanitary way to take a reading from a plastic fermenting bottle with a 3 piece air lock?

Cheers

 

[masonsjax]

14 days is a safe bet. Take the airlock off and carefully pull a sample with a sanitized wine thief. Some are designed to let you test right in the theif. Make sure you don't put your hydrometer in until after uou pull a sample. Be careful not to pick up trub when stealing a sample. After testing, drink the sample rather than returning it to the carboy.

 

[Puddlethumper]

Im planning on leaving my batch in the primary for at least 2 weeks. When is the first time i should take a reading? I dont want to expose the batch to oxygen.

Whats the best way and most sanitary way to take a reading from a plastic fermenting bottle with a 3 piece air lock?

As far as timing goes, if you've already decided on a two week primary I'd suggest you take a reading at day 11 or 12. Another at day 13 and again at 14. If all are the same the batch is done. And I wouldn't sweat the exposure to o2 at this point. Unless you have a can of co2 laying around that you can shoot a little on top of the beer before re-sealing, there really isn't a lot you can do about it.

As far as technique is concerned: Mix up some StarSan in a spray bottle. Clean the area around the stopper well and then spray the whole top of the bottle with StarSan solution. Clean and sanitize your hands and the wine thief or turkey baster and pull your sample. Clean and sanitize the stopper and airlock, refill the airlock with fresh StarSan or vodka and put everything back together. Then see what your hydrometer tells you.

 

[Puddlethumper]

. After testing, drink the sample rather than returning it to the carboy.

+1

Good idea to start getting an idea of what beer at this stage tastes like.

 

[hharborbrew]

Great, thanks guys for all the help. I appreciate the great advice!

 

[Kevin-K]

I'm old & patient. & it has helped me make better beer ( IMHO). I secondary the majority of my beers even if I'm not dry hopping.
I also keg condition all my beers vs. force carbing. Not really much more effort or time but really gives a nicely carbed beer.
It's all about your personal preference & how much you like your end product.


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Can you walk me through your priming process for the keg? I think I want to try this on my current batch.


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