Thoughts on best glycol chiller: SS Brewtech vs. Penguin vs. Any others? (Not diy)

[Brooothru]

I ordered the extenders last night, so we will see how that works out.

I think the extenders should work well. I really thought long and hard about a lid mount rather than side mount since I could have used the lid mounted coil setup on my Brew Bucket (used mostly for wine now) to cold stabilize white wines.

If you do ferment small batches the extenders are probably the best solution and won't require step-drilling the side of an expensive Chronicle, since you only get one chance to get it right.

Brooo Brother

 

[elgee]

I think the extenders should work well. I really thought long and hard about a lid mount rather than side mount since I could have used the lid mounted coil setup on my Brew Bucket (used mostly for wine now) to cold stabilize white wines.

If you do ferment small batches the extenders are probably the best solution and won't require step-drilling the side of an expensive Chronicle, since you only get one chance to get it right.

Brooo Brother

I usually only end up with 4-5 gallons so they make sense. I’m going to run a rest on the Ss brite with the coils to see if it can go down to 32 since those coils run the entire length of the tank.

 

[elgee]

I usually only end up with 4-5 gallons so they make sense. I’m going to run a rest on the Ss brite with the coils to see if it can go down to 32 since those coils run the entire length of the tank.

Update on Penguin chiller. I’ve had fermenter and brite tank holding at 36 for a few days now. Not sure why people can’t get below 40, maybe they didn’t go with a step down cool and froze the coils? In any case, all seems to work as specified. I could go lower but no need for my taste.

 

[Beholder]

I have the Penguin. Love that they are a local usa company. But the resovoir is smaller- which may mean a bigger challange to get to really cold- aka below 36. Read that thread for some thoughts.

I have a penguin and have dropped temperature down to 30 (was brightening in unitank and had a need to push higher carb levels, but limited to 15 psi).

The key elements in my system that I think enable that are a jacketed, insulated unitank and insulated supply lines (with your off the shelf wraparound foam insulation).

 

[Nate R]

I have a penguin and have dropped temperature down to 30 (was brightening in unitank and had a need to push higher carb levels, but limited to 15 psi).

The key elements in my system that I think enable that are a jacketed, insulated unitank and insulated supply lines (with your off the shelf wraparound foam insulation).

Yeah... i hadn't really tried for below 36 before. Now i have a 6%+ abv neipa in there... 6 oz of dry hops... so i am going to need to really crash it. I have the neoprenes wrao on it, so i will update here with how it goes.

 

[elgee]

Yeah... i hadn't really tried for below 36 before. Now i have a 6%+ abv neipa in there... 6 oz of dry hops... so i am going to need to really crash it. I have the neoprenes wrao on it, so i will update here with how it goes.

What type of neoprene wrap, the Ss Brewtech ones or a home made one?

 

[Nate R]

What type of neoprene wrap, the Ss Brewtech ones or a home made one?

The Spike cf5 made neoprene. Comes with their cooling system. I did not order the heater with it (so stupid to not do that). I attached a fermwrap heater (it would not fit inside the neoprene so i left the wrap off). I was using Imperial "pub" that needed a strong dialetcyl rest so i needed heat.

 

[elgee]

The Spike cf5 made neoprene. Comes with their cooling system. I did not order the heater with it (so stupid to not do that). I attached a fermwrap heater (it would not fit inside the neoprene so i left the wrap off). I was using Imperial "pub" that needed a strong dialetcyl rest so i needed heat.

I’m using the foam insulation but it’s so rigid I don’t like it. I can’t really use the stuff unless I leave it in one spot but if I need to move the fermenter or chiller, it’s like a game of Jenga to keep the line from kinking with the foam. I may just buy neoprene sheets on amazon and make my own.

 

[PenguinChillers]

Just gonna put this out there since it came up earlier in this thread.

Icemaster advertises 3200 BTU/hr
Blichmann advertise 3400 BTU/hr
Penguin 1/3HP is 2200 BTU/hr @28F

At face value it looks like we are the lowest producing chiller of the bunch. However there is a major diffence in the way those number are being advertised, the key difference is two of the ratings don’t provide the glycol temperature at the provided output. Chillers operate on a performance curve, the colder the glycol the less BTU/hr they perform. Likewise, the warmer the glycol the more BTU/hr they can remove because more heat is present and it’s easier to remove. So a BTU/hr rating on a chiller is only valid at a specific temperature, that’s why its important to adversitie both.

In our eyes based on everything we could see in the photos and provided specs- the 3200BTU/hr didn’t line up with electrical data, or the physical size of the compressor, or the rather low sales price for such a high output chiller. So we bought an icemaster to test.

It performed 1350 BTU/hr @28F, a far cry from the advertised number. We tried to determine at what temperature the icemaster would do 3200 BTU/hr, but after getting the glycol up to 110F and it still only doing 3100 BTU/hr testing was called off as to not fry the chiller. Guessing it would have been 120F-130F before it would be able to do 3200BTU/hr. There is a temperature that the chiller will perform 3200BTU/hr at, so technically advertising 3200BTU/hr and not providing a temperature with that rating is not false advertising, but it’s very deceptive when it’s a pretty well known fact that the consumer will be using it at or around 28F.

If we wanted to advertise our output at a similar level, we could claim over 6,000 BTU/hr on our 1/3HP. But who cares what the chiller does at 120F, it’s just a way to artificially raise advertised output numbers.

We take it one step further- our advertised values are below what we achieved in testing. Under promise / over deliver is a much better way to run a business.

SSbrew advertises 1450 BTU/hr@28F, which seems legit, we have no reason to believe it’s not.

Stasis advertises 1700BTU/hr and tries to bash SSbrew for only being 1450BTU/hr. However in the next bullet point they state the lowest set point is 36F. That leads us to assume they are 1700 BTU/hr @ 36F at best. The SSbrew is very likely doing more than 1700 BTU/hr @ 36F

Icemaster and Blichmann (which appears to be a rebranded icemaster, and will test out in a similar fashion) may not even be aware, I’d at least hope they aren’t advertising the way they do on purpose. They are simply reselling/ contract manufacturing chillers from overseas, the original manufacturer likely presented them with a spec sheet and they took it and ran with it, I highly doubt their buyers are refrigeration experts and know the right questions to ask when shopping for a supplier of chillers.

Sorry for the long winded post, there’s just a lot of misinformation out there and it can be frustrating to see people being mislead. It’s easy to fool someone with false numbers when most people only have a loose grasp of what the numbers mean in the first place.

 

[CodeSection]

Oh my....here we go again. I'm not sure why the above post was written after seven months. Maybe sales are slow.....

I would suggest readers not get misdirected with sales presentations that "clarify" efficiency issues and at the same time introduces a negative against others being manufactured overseas. The real issue is can the glycol unit chill and to what degree.

If one researches here on HBT, you will find many posts that complain the above manufacturer's unit could not crash below 39F-40F. I did read where one HBT member was able to crash to 36F after wrapping their conical to insulate it better.

All of the units mentioned in the post above, including the author's unit have struggled with being able to crash below 39F with the EXCEPTION of the Icemaster 100 as what has been reported throughout various threads here on HBT.

The Icemaster 100 is a beast and easily crashes to 28F. I challenge anyone to point to a post where they could not chill their Icemaster 100 below 39F. So buyer beware of misinformation or information given to misdirect you. At the end of the day, you want a glycol chiller that works without excuses.

Do your research and look for posts from real owners about their experiences.....

 

[PenguinChillers]

The purpose of a post like my prior, or this one is so that future readers can make better informed decisions. All of the information I’ve posted can be verified/ retested, so if you don’t trust the source, that’s fine- go verify.

If anyone has an issue with cold crashing, I encourage them to reach out to us, we offer great tech support and can help get to the bottom of the issue. [email protected]

There are many factors at work- Ambient temps, Glycol % mix, flow rates, fermenter coil size and type, batch size, etc. Under the right conditions you could expierence a stall while using any brand of chiller, and it’s not necessarily the chiller that is acting as the limiting factor.

Speaking of tech support, if your chiller ever breaks (even after your warranty period) - we are willing and able to repair our products. The other brands will struggle to compete with us in this category. Let’s say your chiller has stopped cooling due to a refrigerant leak, which can happen to any brand of chiller. What solutions do Icemaster, Blichmann, SSbrew offer? As of today, they don’t have the means to fix this type of issue and will refer customers to buy a new chiller, maybe at a discount. But don’t take my word for it, call them and ask.

 

[CodeSection]

The purpose of a post like my prior, or this one is so that future readers can make better informed decisions. All of the information I’ve posted can be verified/ retested, so if you don’t trust the source, that’s fine- go verify.

If anyone has an issue with cold crashing, I encourage them to reach out to us, we offer great tech support and can help get to the bottom of the issue. [email protected]

There are many factors at work- Ambient temps, Glycol % mix, flow rates, fermenter coil size and type, batch size, etc. Under the right conditions you could expierence a stall while using any brand of chiller, and it’s not necessarily the chiller that is acting as the limiting factor.

Speaking of tech support, if your chiller ever breaks (even after your warranty period) - we are willing and able to repair our products. The other brands will struggle to compete with us in this category. Let’s say your chiller has stopped cooling due to a refrigerant leak, which can happen to any brand of chiller. What solutions do Icemaster, Blichmann, SSbrew offer? As of today, they don’t have the means to fix this type of issue and will refer customers to buy a new chiller, maybe at a discount. But don’t take my word for it, call them and ask.

You post "There are many factors at work- Ambient temps, Glycol % mix, flow rates, fermenter coil size and type, batch size, etc. Under the right conditions you could expierence a stall while using any brand of chiller, and it’s not necessarily the chiller that is acting as the limiting factor."

And yet, you cannot find any posting about an Icemaster 100 where such an excuse was posted....the Icemaster 100 just works and can crash easily to 28F. Morebeer wins!

I think it is important to distinguish items. For instance, Morebeer has a 60 day return policy if you do not like their Icemaster 100 or any chiller (actually on any product). Your return period is only 21 days. Plus, you charge a 20% restocking fee! Morebeer wins!

If a product (including any glycol chiller they sell) fails within the one year warranty period, Morebeer pays for the return shipping. You require the customer to pay for return shipping on a warranty claim. Morebeer wins!

The Icemaster 100 without any sales is $130-$250 cheaper than your smaller glycol units. Morebeer wins!

It appears it is possible to buy an extended warranty from your company ranging from paying an additional $89.99-$399.99 depending upon the unit and length of term. Selling additional insurance is something that a lot of businesses have found to be lucrative and have increased profits. No one sells extended warranties to loose money. Since some buyers like buying extended warranties especially on an unknown product, I would give a very slight win to you.

I find it very hard to believe someone would ship any unit back to ANY manufacturer to repair a refrigerant leak. I think most readers are smart enough to be able to call a local repair AC person in their area. I don't see it as a benefit that they call you, then you look up on the internet an AC person in their area. Then they look up that person and call them. Where's the value added? Of course there really is none.

I agree with you 100% that future readers should do their research and become better informed....

https://www.morebeer.com/content/return
Per Penquinchillers website "The customer is responsible for inbound shipping on a warranty claim. We can assist in providing a discounted return shipment label if requested by the customer, but the cost of shipping to Penguin Chillers falls under the responsibility of the customer....."

"Returns must be approved prior to shipping the return. Returns must be requested within 21 days of original shipment. All returned items must be in their original condition, with all original packaging. A 20% stocking fee applies to all approved returns...."

https://www.penguinchillers.com/uncategorized/shipping-and-return-info/
https://www.penguinchillers.com/wp-content/uploads/1-2-3-year-limited-warranty.pdf

 

[PenguinChillers]

Well clearly I’ll never win you over, you are obviously a fan of icemaster /morebeer. But here’s some more info for anyone else reading:

We are American Made and employ a shop full of people right here in Knoxville TN. That means in order to compete with products made in China on price we need to be wise about our warranty and return policies along with all the other expenses that go into making chillers and running a business in general.

We have nothing to hide about our warranty or return policies. Both are aimed to reduce claims or returns by placing a small barrier to proceed. The result is that only the ones who truly need to send a unit back do so which helps keep our cost down. But even then, we don’t leave you to the wolves, we can provide the shipping label at a reduced rate (our cost) so for our smaller chillers it’s around $30-$35 to send in.

Stated policies are just that- stated, as a minimum level of service/expection, but they aren’t the end all be all. We have the ability to apply some common sense and treat people in a decent human being kind of way. So if the situation calls for us to eat all of the cost, we will.

I am grateful for our customers, many who return to purchase additional chillers. They’ve allowed us to grow exponentially year after year, to the point that it’s everything we can do just to try to keep up. This hasn’t happened by luck, customer service is the backbone of this company. The human element and the fact you can call up and talk to someone, and not just anyone, but someone who can talk in depth on technical topics is something a lot of companies are moving away from, it’s something I’ll fight to keep in place as we continue to grow as I truly believe it makes all the difference.

I’d rather work with a customer before the sale to ensure they are getting the right chiller the first time. Rather than relying on a return policy that allows the buying process to be more of a “guess and check” process.

If there is an issue post sale I’d rather work with the customer to properly diagnosis the issue in order to provide the best corrective course of action and to get it back up and running ASAP. Possibly even fix it on the spot by simply talking to the customer and walking them through stuff. We can offer this level of service not only because we understand your brewing goals, but also because we are experts on our products and how they work inside and out. Jumping the gun to send it in serves nobody, it cost more money and may delay getting you back up and running if it wasn’t necessary to send back in the first place.

Morebeer’s policies cost them more money, they in turn build that into the price of the products they sell. They can get away with it because they are importing from China and buying for far less than our units cost to make.

As for the refrigerant leak scenario, I was referring to after the warranty period. The other companies will tell you to buy a new one. Good luck on calling an AC tech, most companies won’t touch small chillers like these. If you luck out and find a company to work on it, expect at least $200-$300 service bill, maybe more.

 

[CodeSection]

Well clearly I’ll never win you over, you are obviously a fan of icemaster /morebeer. But here’s some more info for anyone else reading:

We are American Made and employ a shop full of people right here in Knoxville TN. That means in order to compete with products made in China on price we need to be wise about our warranty and return policies along with all the other expenses that go into making chillers and running a business in general.

We have nothing to hide about our warranty or return policies. Both are aimed to reduce claims or returns by placing a small barrier to proceed. But even then, we don’t leave you to the wolves, we can provide the shipping label at a reduced rate (our cost) so for our smaller chillers it’s around $30-$35 to send in.

Stated policies aren’t the end all be all. We have the ability to apply some common sense and treat people in a decent human being kind of way. So if the situation calls for us to eat all of the cost, we will.

I am grateful for our customers, they’ve allowed us to grow exponentially year after year, to the point that it’s everything we can do just to try to keep up. This hasn’t happened by luck, customer service is the backbone of this company. The human element and the fact you can call up and talk to someone, and not just anyone, but someone who can talk in depth on technical topics is something a lot of companies are moving away from, it’s something I’ll fight to keep in place as we continue to grow as I truly believe it makes all the difference.

I’d rather work with a customer before the sale to ensure they are getting the right chiller the first time. Rather than relying on a return policy that allows the buying process to be more of a “guess and check” process.

If there is an issue post sale I’d rather work with the customer to properly diagnosis the issue to provide the best course of action and to get it back up ASAP, possibly even fix it on the spot by simply talking to the customer and walking them through stuff. We can offer this level of service not only because we understand your brewing goals, but also because we are experts on our products and how they work inside and out. Jumping the gun to send it in serves nobody, it cost more money and may delay getting you back up and running if it wasn’t necessary to send back in the first place.

Morebeer’s policies cost them more money, they in turn build that into the price of the products they sell. They can get away with it because they are importing from China and buying for far less than our units cost to make.

As for the refrigerant leak scenario, I was referring to after the warranty period. The other companies will tell you to buy a new one. Good luck on calling an AC tech, most companies won’t touch small chillers like these. If you luck out and find a company to work on it, expect at least $200-$300 service bill, maybe more.

I suspect your recent negative postings of other companies and implied statement other companies "leave you to the wolves" has more to do with your poor sales based on the reasons stated in the above posts and based upon the huge increase in competition you are experiencing. I suspect your market share has shrunk considerably and that is why you started up this seven month old thread.

I recognize there is a wave of anti-China merchandise out there....that seems reasonable at this point. Unfortunately, the function of your units as reported here on HBT by some members along with your increased pricing and lackluster warranty terms may not overcome the anti-China sentiment. I suspect companies like Spike Brewing and SSB Brewtech are doing fine.

Rather than putting down other companies and introducing negative posts about them, how about spending the time and energy on how to improve the function of your units? I see you have a unit with an eight gallon reservoir like the Icemaster 100 but costs $500 more (a 167% difference). Perhaps reducing your prices and changing your warranty terms might make you more competitive.

You need to change with the times and with increased competition or be left behind. Putting down other companies only hurts you in the end.

Good luck......

 

[crooow]

Well clearly I’ll never win you over, you are obviously a fan of icemaster /morebeer. But here’s some more info for anyone else reading:

We are American Made and employ a shop full of people right here in Knoxville TN. That means in order to compete with products made in China on price we need to be wise about our warranty and return policies along with all the other expenses that go into making chillers and running a business in general.

We have nothing to hide about our warranty or return policies. Both are aimed to reduce claims or returns by placing a small barrier to proceed. The result is that only the ones who truly need to send a unit back do so which helps keep our cost down. But even then, we don’t leave you to the wolves, we can provide the shipping label at a reduced rate (our cost) so for our smaller chillers it’s around $30-$35 to send in.

Stated policies are just that- stated, as a minimum level of service/expection, but they aren’t the end all be all. We have the ability to apply some common sense and treat people in a decent human being kind of way. So if the situation calls for us to eat all of the cost, we will.

I am grateful for our customers, many who return to purchase additional chillers. They’ve allowed us to grow exponentially year after year, to the point that it’s everything we can do just to try to keep up. This hasn’t happened by luck, customer service is the backbone of this company. The human element and the fact you can call up and talk to someone, and not just anyone, but someone who can talk in depth on technical topics is something a lot of companies are moving away from, it’s something I’ll fight to keep in place as we continue to grow as I truly believe it makes all the difference.

I’d rather work with a customer before the sale to ensure they are getting the right chiller the first time. Rather than relying on a return policy that allows the buying process to be more of a “guess and check” process.

If there is an issue post sale I’d rather work with the customer to properly diagnosis the issue in order to provide the best corrective course of action and to get it back up and running ASAP. Possibly even fix it on the spot by simply talking to the customer and walking them through stuff. We can offer this level of service not only because we understand your brewing goals, but also because we are experts on our products and how they work inside and out. Jumping the gun to send it in serves nobody, it cost more money and may delay getting you back up and running if it wasn’t necessary to send back in the first place.

Morebeer’s policies cost them more money, they in turn build that into the price of the products they sell. They can get away with it because they are importing from China and buying for far less than our units cost to make.

As for the refrigerant leak scenario, I was referring to after the warranty period. The other companies will tell you to buy a new one. Good luck on calling an AC tech, most companies won’t touch small chillers like these. If you luck out and find a company to work on it, expect at least $200-$300 service bill, maybe more.

Thank you for all this info. I'm buying a chiller in the next few months, and it'll definitely be a penguin.

 

[Jtvann]

I dont agree with everything that penguin has said. Just because I dont agree, doesnt mean I have to hate them or bash them. It also doesnt mean that I have to be a justice warrior to call them out on every little minuscule discrepancy that I personally disagree with. I think we all get it codesection ... you freaking love your ice master. Were all happy that you do. Were all so happy that it works for you and every other person on this internet forum.

Can you lay off penguin just a little bit maybe? It's getting old. All folks have to do is see your name behind a penguin post, and its pointless to read. You're gonna bash them.

Penguin is doing nothing but stating statistics and what their customer service is. We all know that you can make statistics say whatever you want them to say.

 

[CodeSection]

I dont agree with everything that penguin has said. Just because I dont agree, doesnt mean I have to hate them or bash them. It also doesnt mean that I have to be a justice warrior to call them out on every little minuscule discrepancy that I personally disagree with. I think we all get it codesection ... you freaking love your ice master. Were all happy that you do. Were all so happy that it works for you and every other person on this internet forum.

Can you lay off penguin just a little bit maybe? It's getting old. All folks have to do is see your name behind a penguin post, and its pointless to read. You're gonna bash them.

Penguin is doing nothing but stating statistics and what their customer service is. We all know that you can make statistics say whatever you want them to say.

(Yawn) Yep, there is no reason for Penguin to bash other companies in order for them to try and look better....

 

[radwizard]

I missed the part where they bashed other companies. Maybe I misread something, but I thought it was more of an explanation about BTU ratings.

 

[PenguinChillers]

I missed the part where they bashed other companies. Maybe I misread something, but I thought it was more of an explanation about BTU ratings.

It's cause I'm round about claiming they are falsely advertising. However I went on to explain how you could kinda skirt the rules and still claim those numbers, so technically it's not false advertising, just really misleading.

I think I was pretty nice about SSbrew, who doesn't mislead so I don't have an issue with them, we can compete straight up. But false claims or playing by a different set of rules makes it a lot harder to fairly compete, all I want is a fair fight.

 

[mongoose33]

Up front notification: I have a Penguin, the 1/2 HP version.

I don't frankly understand this whole argument. I also can't see how an Icemaster would solve the crashing problem of getting my Spike 10-gal unitank below, say, about 38 degrees.

Anyone who's followed this issue and me for a long time knows that I've been trying to find a way to get my fermenter down to around 32 degrees when crashing. I set my penguin at 28 degrees, and about the best I can do is 38, depending on ambient temps.

When the glycol solution warms up a bit the Penguin clicks on, and drives that temp back down shockingly fast. The problem isn't the Penguin--it's that the chilling system I'm using with the spike, the internal stainless coil, can only remove so much heat. Anyone who's ever used an immersion chiller knows that the closer you get to target chill temp, the slower the rate of chilling.

I've tried wrapping my fermenter in a moving blanket, tried covering all the protuberances (valves, legs, handles, thermowell, manifold, top 4" port) with reflectix; made almost no difference.

In the end, I've concluded that there just are too many heat sinks on my fermenter for the coil/glycol system to remove enough heat. It's not a Penguin issue. It's a beast. It's that you can only remove so much heat with a stainless coil (poorer heat conductivity than copper).


I'm not sure why this is a debate. The penguins work. So, too, apparently, do Icemasters. Seems like the end of the conversation should ensue.....

*********
I have one more thing to try in my quest for low crash temps. I want to build an insulated box out of 2" foamboard insulation and see if isolating that fermenter from ambient will get me there. I suspect it will, just a matter of doing it.

 

[PenguinChillers]

Up front notification: I have a Penguin, the 1/2 HP version.

I don't frankly understand this whole argument. I also can't see how an Icemaster would solve the crashing problem of getting my Spike 10-gal unitank below, say, about 38 degrees.

Anyone who's followed this issue and me for a long time knows that I've been trying to find a way to get my fermenter down to around 32 degrees when crashing. I set my penguin at 28 degrees, and about the best I can do is 38, depending on ambient temps.

When the glycol solution warms up a bit the Penguin clicks on, and drives that temp back down shockingly fast. The problem isn't the Penguin--it's that the chilling system I'm using with the spike, the internal stainless coil, can only remove so much heat. Anyone who's ever used an immersion chiller knows that the closer you get to target chill temp, the slower the rate of chilling.

I've tried wrapping my fermenter in a moving blanket, tried covering all the protuberances (valves, legs, handles, thermowell, manifold, top 4" port) with reflectix; made almost no difference.

In the end, I've concluded that there just are too many heat sinks on my fermenter for the coil/glycol system to remove enough heat. It's not a Penguin issue. It's a beast. It's that you can only remove so much heat with a stainless coil (poorer heat conductivity than copper).


I'm not sure why this is a debate. The penguins work. So, too, apparently, do Icemasters. Seems like the end of the conversation should ensue.....

*********
I have one more thing to try in my quest for low crash temps. I want to build an insulated box out of 2" foamboard insulation and see if isolating that fermenter from ambient will get me there. I suspect it will, just a matter of doing it.

While an insulated box like you describe would surely do the trick, you can also try to increase glycol flow. When trying to get those last couple degrees to come out it can come down to the nitty gritty. So a few things you may want to try: Take the lid of the chiller off and run the tubing directly from the pump to the fermenter and back which eliminates 2 barb fittings in the loop. Any barb fitting, including those handy quick disconnects will create some amount of resistance and slow the flow of glycol. Another thing you may want to try - water down your glycol mix. A lighter mix will be thinner and have better flow characteristics, water is also better than glycol at transferring heat, so you will get a slightly better performing mix and more of it. The only danger with a lighter mix is too light and it'll begin to freeze in the reservoir, but it should start slushing and not really freeze hard, so you'd have the opportunity to take corrective actions long before it was a major problem so long as you are paying some amount of attention to it.

Another option is one of our XL pumps, should provide about 2x the flow on your existing 3/8" tubing loop, barbs and all. It's really a bit overkill, but it should quickly tell you if flow rates are the limiting factor in your system. We recently got a spike CF30 to do some in house testing on to try to recreate a stall and hopefully shine a light on what's really going on and be able to provide a solution. But your setup sounds like as good of a test bed as any, so if you are open to testing and reporting back, I'd send one out free of charge.

 

[Nate R]

Just gonna put this out there since it came up earlier in this thread.

Icemaster advertises 3200 BTU/hr
Blichmann advertise 3400 BTU/hr
Penguin 1/3HP is 2200 BTU/hr @28F

At face value it looks like we are the lowest producing chiller of the bunch. However there is a major diffence in the way those number are being advertised, the key difference is two of the ratings don’t provide the glycol temperature at the provided output. Chillers operate on a performance curve, the colder the glycol the less BTU/hr they perform. Likewise, the warmer the glycol the more BTU/hr they can remove because more heat is present and it’s easier to remove. So a BTU/hr rating on a chiller is only valid at a specific temperature, that’s why its important to adversitie both.

In our eyes based on everything we could see in the photos and provided specs- the 3200BTU/hr didn’t line up with electrical data, or the physical size of the compressor, or the rather low sales price for such a high output chiller. So we bought an icemaster to test.

It performed 1350 BTU/hr @28F, a far cry from the advertised number. We tried to determine at what temperature the icemaster would do 3200 BTU/hr, but after getting the glycol up to 110F and it still only doing 3100 BTU/hr testing was called off as to not fry the chiller. Guessing it would have been 120F-130F before it would be able to do 3200BTU/hr. There is a temperature that the chiller will perform 3200BTU/hr at, so technically advertising 3200BTU/hr and not providing a temperature with that rating is not false advertising, but it’s very deceptive when it’s a pretty well known fact that the consumer will be using it at or around 28F.

If we wanted to advertise our output at a similar level, we could claim over 6,000 BTU/hr on our 1/3HP. But who cares what the chiller does at 120F, it’s just a way to artificially raise advertised output numbers.

We take it one step further- our advertised values are below what we achieved in testing. Under promise / over deliver is a much better way to run a business.

SSbrew advertises 1450 BTU/hr@28F, which seems legit, we have no reason to believe it’s not.

Stasis advertises 1700BTU/hr and tries to bash SSbrew for only being 1450BTU/hr. However in the next bullet point they state the lowest set point is 36F. That leads us to assume they are 1700 BTU/hr @ 36F at best. The SSbrew is very likely doing more than 1700 BTU/hr @ 36F

Icemaster and Blichmann (which appears to be a rebranded icemaster, and will test out in a similar fashion) may not even be aware, I’d at least hope they aren’t advertising the way they do on purpose. They are simply reselling/ contract manufacturing chillers from overseas, the original manufacturer likely presented them with a spec sheet and they took it and ran with it, I highly doubt their buyers are refrigeration experts and know the right questions to ask when shopping for a supplier of chillers.

Sorry for the long winded post, there’s just a lot of misinformation out there and it can be frustrating to see people being mislead. It’s easy to fool someone with false numbers when most people only have a loose grasp of what the numbers mean in the first place.

So.... @PenguinChillers/ Eric- you gonna post that used Icemaster for sale soon? You know there's a thread here for that!!!
Just kidding!!

Ok, so i was gonna be smart and keep my mouth shut, but... then i realized i'm the "OP" on this thread! So, here goes...

I got a 1/3hp Penguin after much debate. Size and reviews here were the determinig factor for me.

My Penguin has been great so far. I easily crash to 34 or so depending on abv of wort.

I emailed Penguin/ Eric about two issues and got an answer back in under 24 hours. He went above and beyond on an issue for me. So i can say he backs his products.

Now, i get it. Some people want a printed warranty or guarentee. Even though (and as i will provide a meme about, below!) sometimes you may just buy a warranty over a product.
For me, i want to know the company i buy from backs their products.

On the Spike thread Code and a few of us went back and forth on their 'missing' warranty page. Code, i have read a lot your posts and gotten sone great advice from you. I think you're a good brewer with some good knowldge to share. I think also you're pretty opinionated (spelling!) and strong in your beliefs.

I like that spike and penguin are US based assembly. Yeah, i know it's not all American made parts. But they are American companies. Morebeer still makes their own stuff in their US shop, but not the chillers. Plus, it's pricey.

Anyway- maybe we can all agree that sone people like warranties spelled out. Others like the reputation of a solid company and trust that. To each his/her own?

And as promised, my man, the myth, the Legend, my hero (?)... Chris Farley, aka TommyBoy....

 

[CodeSection]

So.... @PenguinChillers/ Eric- you gonna post that used Icemaster for sale soon? You know there's a thread here for that!!!
Just kidding!!

Ok, so i was gonna be smart and keep my mouth shut, but... then i realized i'm the "OP" on this thread! So, here goes...

I got a 1/3hp Penguin after much debate. Size and reviews here were the determinig factor for me.

My Penguin has been great so far. I easily crash to 34 or so depending on abv of wort.

I emailed Penguin/ Eric about two issues and got an answer back in under 24 hours. He went above and beyond on an issue for me. So i can say he backs his products.

Now, i get it. Some people want a printed warranty or guarentee. Even though (and as i will provide a meme about, below!) sometimes you may just buy a warranty over a product.
For me, i want to know the company i buy from backs their products.

On the Spike thread Code and a few of us went back and forth on their 'missing' warranty page. Code, i have read a lot your posts and gotten sone great advice from you. I think you're a good brewer with some good knowldge to share. I think also you're pretty opinionated (spelling!) and strong in your beliefs.

I like that spike and penguin are US based assembly. Yeah, i know it's not all American made parts. But they are American companies. Morebeer still makes their own stuff in their US shop, but not the chillers. Plus, it's pricey.

Anyway- maybe we can all agree that sone people like warranties spelled out. Others like the reputation of a solid company and trust that. To each his/her own?

And as promised, my man, the myth, the Legend, my hero (?)... Chris Farley, aka TommyBoy....
View attachment 688772

Thanks Nate! I'm glad your Penguin is working for you and you have been able to finally obtain a lower temp. Unfortunately, it isn't working as well for others. I can understand "assembled" in America may be attractive to some while "made in America" (Blichmann) would be more attractive to others. That was not my point.

Other than the items I have already posted, I just do not like how this "marketing" effort that is being passed off as education by Penguin keeps popping up once or twice a year when it is obvious it is sales motivated. I understand and recognize when business owners panic and react to try and keep market share from sliding. However, there is absolutely no reason to implore tactics that bash other companies and make innuendoes about other companies in order to try and make the appearance that Penguin is the better product.

If Penguin wants to compete fairly, they should stop the bashing and innuendoes of other companies. Perhaps, they may want to consider another strategy as I suspect their market share is shrinking and will continue to shrink. As Albert Einstein has said, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results."

Enough said.....

 

[PenguinChillers]

Thanks Nate! I'm glad your Penguin is working for you and you have been able to finally obtain a lower temp. Unfortunately, it isn't working as well for others. I can understand "assembled" in America may be attractive to some while "made in America" (Blichmann) would be more attractive to others. That was not my point.

Other than the items I have already posted, I just do not like how this "marketing" effort that is being passed off as education by Penguin keeps popping up once or twice a year when it is obvious it is sales motivated. I understand and recognize when business owners panic and react to try and keep market share from sliding. However, there is absolutely no reason to implore tactics that bash other companies and make innuendoes about other companies in order to try and make the appearance that Penguin is the better product.

If Penguin wants to compete fairly, they should stop the bashing and innuendoes of other companies. Perhaps, they may want to consider another strategy as I suspect their market share is shrinking and will continue to shrink. As Albert Einstein has said, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results."

Enough said.....

Blichmann chillers aren't even assembled in the US, it's just a re-branded Icemaster. Their other equipment might be Made in America, or Assembled in America, but the chiller is clearly an import.

If my "marketing" efforts of trying to inform consumers about misleading advertising feels a bit negative, and "bashing", sorry, not sorry. If the data comes across as "negative" or "bashing" maybe the companies that are doing the misleading advertising should stop? If I was making up false data as the basis for my comments, well then - yes it would be guilty of all those things you acuse me of. However all of the data I presented is user verifiable, so go fact check me.

I guess your answer to this problem is to bash Penguin Chillers and let Icemaster continue to use misleading data and not call them out on it and just let them get away with it.

If you bought a car and they told you it got 20mpg but after buying it you found out it only got 8.7mpg.... you’d be happy and want to sing from the mountain tops about your praise for this company that mislead you, while simultaneously bashing the company that’s trying to shed some light on the misleading data? Technically your car can achieve 20mpg, but only if gravity was 1/10th of what it is. Does this scenario sound ridiculous yet? This is on the same order of magnitude that Icemaster advertises vs performs at. Performs at 43% of the advertised value under the conditions most users will want to use the equipment at. Performs at 100% of the advertised value under ridiculous / unrealistic conditions that make the advertised value meaningless.

Did you notice I didn't really say much about SSbrew? They are by far our largest competitor, but they aren't making false claims. Stasis isn't all that bad either, they provide a temperature, even though it's not at the more common 28F but the number they advertise is at least in the ball park.

Seems like you know more about Penguin Chiller's shrinking market share than I do. Our sales have doubled in the past 2 years. If you ask me, that doesn't sound half bad. However if the brew market has tripled in the past 2 years and we've "only" doubled, well technically our market share is shrinking. That would still be fine by me, just gives us more room to grow.

 

[rwinzing]

I know the OP already ordered his but I thought I would weigh in on the SS. I have had it for two years, I like the updates they have made to the new models. My biggest complaint it is a beast to move but I don't need to move it often. It works great.

 

[Brooothru]

Blichmann chillers aren't even assembled in the US, it's just a re-branded Icemaster. Their other equipment might be Made in America, or Assembled in America, but the chiller is clearly an import.

If my "marketing" efforts of trying to inform consumers about misleading advertising feels a bit negative, and "bashing", sorry, not sorry. If the data comes across as "negative" or "bashing" maybe the companies that are doing the misleading advertising should stop? If I was making up false data as the basis for my comments, well then - yes it would be guilty of all those things you acuse me of. However all of the data I presented is user verifiable, so go fact check me.

I guess your answer to this problem is to bash Penguin Chillers and let Icemaster continue to use misleading data and not call them out on it and just let them get away with it.

If you bought a car and they told you it got 20mpg but after buying it you found out it only got 8.7mpg.... you’d be happy and want to sing from the mountain tops about your praise for this company that mislead you, while simultaneously bashing the company that’s trying to shed some light on the misleading data? Technically your car can achieve 20mpg, but only if gravity was 1/10th of what it is. Does this scenario sound ridiculous yet? This is on the same order of magnitude that Icemaster advertises vs performs at. Performs at 43% of the advertised value under the conditions most users will want to use the equipment at. Performs at 100% of the advertised value under ridiculous / unrealistic conditions that make the advertised value meaningless.

Did you notice I didn't really say much about SSbrew? They are by far our largest competitor, but they aren't making false claims. Stasis isn't all that bad either, they provide a temperature, even though it's not at the more common 28F but the number they advertise is at least in the ball park.

Seems like you know more about Penguin Chiller's shrinking market share than I do. Our sales have doubled in the past 2 years. If you ask me, that doesn't sound half bad. However if the brew market has tripled in the past 2 years and we've "only" doubled, well technically our market share is shrinking. That would still be fine by me, just gives us more room to grow.

Thanks for weighing in and giving the manufacturer's POV. Spoiler alert: I bought "the competition" (SsBT) and have generally been pleased. Final determining factor was consistency of branding with my fermenters.

That said, you brought up an interesting angle on the stall being caused by coolent flow. It's probably one of the most likely causal factors but has been totally overlooked in this debate. I can usually get temps down to 34~36F, depending upon ambient temp and whether I'm chilling more than one fermenter. That's with neoprene jacket only, two quick disconnects, and 30" of 3/8" insulated tubing. Not today with a forecast in the mid 90s F, though.

Do you have a link to the XL type pump you're using. I'd like to try that angle before resorting to Reflectix and a sleeping bag.

Brooo Brother

 

[augiedoggy]

Penguin mentions being an american made product but im fairly certain the window air condition units they repurpose to make their chillers are not (maybe things changed and im wrong? but I dont think so). So while kuddos to them for being an american company, This should also be a factor to consider as well some chillers are professionally designed and engineered as such and it only makes sense that both this and repurposing another device will each have their merits and drawbacks.

 

[Vale71]

That said, you brought up an interesting angle on the stall being caused by coolent flow. It's probably one of the most likely causal factors but has been totally overlooked in this debate. I can usually get temps down to 34~36F, depending upon ambient temp and whether I'm chilling more than one fermenter. That's with neoprene jacket only, two quick disconnects, and 30" of 3/8" insulated tubing. Not today with a forecast in the mid 90s F, though.

That is probably a red herring unfortunately though. With cooling coils the limiting factor is really the small surface area of the coil which limits the exchange of heat for a given temperatue differential. An easy way to see if you're really flow-limited is to check the temperature of the coolant as it returns to the chiller. If it's temperature is only slightly higher than the output temperature then you're not flow-limited. Installing a more powerful pump will not bring much if at all as far as performance is concerned and will only create more heat in the chiller (if it's an immersion pump) causing it to have to work more to maintain temperature.

 

[PenguinChillers]

Thanks for weighing in and giving the manufacturer's POV. Spoiler alert: I bought "the competition" (SsBT) and have generally been pleased. Final determining factor was consistency of branding with my fermenters.

That said, you brought up an interesting angle on the stall being caused by coolent flow. It's probably one of the most likely causal factors but has been totally overlooked in this debate. I can usually get temps down to 34~36F, depending upon ambient temp and whether I'm chilling more than one fermenter. That's with neoprene jacket only, two quick disconnects, and 30" of 3/8" insulated tubing. Not today with a forecast in the mid 90s F, though.

Do you have a link to the XL type pump you're using. I'd like to try that angle before resorting to Reflectix and a sleeping bag.

Brooo Brother

https://www.penguinchillers.com/product/glycol-pump/

 

[PenguinChillers]

That is probably a red herring unfortunately though. With cooling coils the limiting factor is really the small surface area of the coil which limits the exchange of heat for a given temperatue differential. An easy way to see if you're really flow-limited is to check the temperature of the coolant as it returns to the chiller. If it's temperature is only slightly higher than the output temperature then you're not flow-limited. Installing a more powerful pump will not bring much if at all as far as performance is concerned and will only create more heat in the chiller (if it's an immersion pump) causing it to have to work more to maintain temperature.

Your right, the surface area on the coils is potentially a limiting factor. But making a bigger coil is typically outside the ability of the average consumer. So the alternative is to make that coil a little more efficient. By passing more glycol through it, you are lowering the exit temp of the glycol, if your glycol goes in at 28F and comes out at 30F, that means parts of your coil are at 28F, parts at 29F, and parts at 30F. If you put more glycol through and have an exit temp of 29F, you will have eliminated the parts of the coil at 30F, making them slightly better at transferring heat. Increasing flow only goes so far though, it's a minor adjustment, but for some people on the edge, it could easily be enough to get them where they want to be.

The heat of a bigger submersible pump doesn't really matter unless you are chiller limited. We are assuming you are coil limited, meaning you have extra chiller capacity to spare, so the extra 136 BTU/hr that the bigger pump produces doesn't matter. It is also a pretty insignificant difference to begin with it equates to about an extra 3.7 minutes per hour of run time on our 1/3HP per hour, even less on the bigger chillers.

Another solution if you are coil limited is to insulate the tank better. If you lower the amount of heat gain from ambient, your coil has that much less ambient heat that it's fighting to remove and can instead remove heat to further lower the temperature, getting past a stall.

 

[Brooothru]

That is probably a red herring unfortunately though. With cooling coils the limiting factor is really the small surface area of the coil which limits the exchange of heat for a given temperatue differential. An easy way to see if you're really flow-limited is to check the temperature of the coolant as it returns to the chiller. If it's temperature is only slightly higher than the output temperature then you're not flow-limited. Installing a more powerful pump will not bring much if at all as far as performance is concerned and will only create more heat in the chiller (if it's an immersion pump) causing it to have to work more to maintain temperature.

Good point about the surface area of the coil being a limiting factor, though I'm less sure about how much latent heat energy from a larger pump would influence the equation. Volts x amps = Watts, for sure, but how much thermal absorption goes into the water/glycol mix? Is it enough to make a difference? Above my pay grade to accurately calculate.

I did make a set of jumper connections to reverse the flow of glycol from the reservoir to the cooling coil, as recommended by Spike for their coil cooled fermenters, when fermentation temperatures reach the lower limit and stall. Mine would usually quit falling around 35~36F. By swapping the input and outflow lines at that temperature, I was able to get the fermenter temperature down to 33F (ambient was upper 60s/lower70s in my brew area), so the lack of significant change in temperature likely indicates little flow restriction as you point out. Right now I'm running approximately 65% glycol to 35% distilled water, and may have to fiddle with the ratio.

 

[Jtvann]

Your right, the surface area on the coils is potentially a limiting factor. But making a bigger coil is typically outside the ability of the average consumer. So the alternative is to make that coil a little more efficient. By passing more glycol through it, you are lowering the exit temp of the glycol, if your glycol goes in at 28F and comes out at 30F, that means parts of your coil are at 28F, parts at 29F, and parts at 30F. If you put more glycol through and have an exit temp of 29F, you will have eliminated the parts of the coil at 30F, making them slightly better at transferring heat. Increasing flow only goes so far though, it's a minor adjustment, but for some people on the edge, it could easily be enough to get them where they want to be.

The heat of a bigger submersible pump doesn't really matter unless you are chiller limited. We are assuming you are coil limited, meaning you have extra chiller capacity to spare, so the extra 136 BTU/hr that the bigger pump produces doesn't matter. It is also a pretty insignificant difference to begin with it equates to about an extra 3.7 minutes per hour of run time on our 1/3HP per hour, even less on the bigger chillers.

Another solution if you are coil limited is to insulate the tank better. If you lower the amount of heat gain from ambient, your coil has that much less ambient heat that it's fighting to remove and can instead remove heat to further lower the temperature, getting past a stall.

I think the biggest factor that I've noticed is chiller coil surface area. I've been able to hold and maintain 34ish degrees on my unitank with three Ss chiller. As soon as I start dumping trub ir harvesting yeast, the temp will rise a few degrees. It only makes sense that the volume has fallen and is touching less coil.

I'd never considered using a bigger pump for more volume flow. It makes sense to me. Probably wont worry about it as anything near 37 is fine with me.

 

[duncan.brown]

I have an SSBT chiller which I love (it's built in France, I believe) but I use @PenguinChillers' pumps as they are much better than the SSBT pumps.

 

[couchsending]

Had a Penguin 1/3Hp chiller for 3 Years now. It’s had 4 7g Chronicals or 3 7g Chronicals and a CF5 hooked up to it for the entire time and the fermenters are rarely empty. Probably over 300 ferments controlled by now.

zero issues

however I don’t cool below 38/39 usually. I don’t feel the need to condition in the fermenter, I’ve got kegs and multiple chest freezers for that. Might consider it in the CF5 but the Chroncals don’t really seal so I’d burn through too much Co2 trying to keep head pressure.

That being said I now have 2 14g SS Unitanks and am looking for another chiller and the Icemaster 100 is interesting.

My biggest beef with all these chillers is the positioning of all the inlets and outlets. It looks like a jungle of insulated tubing when you have fermenters on both sides of the unit.

 

[PenguinChillers]

Had a Penguin 1/3Hp chiller for 3 Years now. It’s had 4 7g Chronicals or 3 7g Chronicals and a CF5 hooked up to it for the entire time and the fermenters are rarely empty. Probably over 300 ferments controlled by now.

zero issues

Sounds like a simple answer...... either another 1/3HP or sell the one you have and put everything on a 2/3HP XL, you'll probably like the inlet/outlets and lid design on the XL line more than the 1/3HP

https://www.penguinchillers.com/product/2-3-hp-stainless-steel-glycol-xl-chiller/

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm going to chime in and say I don't believe hp ratings are universal since we use the micromatic 1/3hp beerline chiller to control temps on all four of our 110gallon conicals and it maintains temps on all four perfectly fine and we even cold crash one at a time down to 40 degrees.

 

[jschein]

I'm going to chime in and say I don't believe hp ratings are universal since we use the micromatic 1/3hp beerline chiller to control temps on all four of our 110gallon conicals and it maintains temps on all four perfectly fine and we even cold crash one at a time down to 40 degrees.View attachment 692161

Blasphemy

 

[augiedoggy]

Blasphemy

Might as well be right?

 

[emr25]

I’ve had my 1/2 HP Penguin Chiller for 2.5 years now and have been happy for the most part.

It operates in a garage in SE Georgia, which means extremely hot and humid ambient temperatures for 4+ months every year. This causes a lot of condensation around the glycol reservoir (the black plastic lid sweats very bad and there is always condensation buildup inside the unit under the reservoir, which leaks out the seams of the housing and puddles up).

My biggest complaint is the temperature controller unit (MH1210F), I’m now on my 4th one. They seem to fail fairly regularly, and I think it may be a moisture issue (buildup inside the unit causing electrical failures on the controller).

The first time it happened I contacted Penguin and they got a new controller shipped out quickly with no charge, great service. Since then I’ve always had at least one spare on hand purchased through eBay, they run ~$12 to $15.

The most recent occurrence was a month ago, and I decided to take the housing off of the chiller and add additional expanding foam insulation and silicone caulk around the glycol reservoir to try to reduce the condensation buildup. I also added a plastic “diverter” to prevent moisture from dripping directly onto the MH1210F controller.

Knock on wood that this solves the failing controller issue! Other than that I’ve enjoyed the Penguin unit and even in extreme ambient conditions I’ve never had a problem with lager ferments maintaining 46*F in my SS Brewtech 7 Gal BME Chronical. I do not cold crash in the fermentor, no need for my process.

 

[PenguinChillers]

I’ve had my 1/2 HP Penguin Chiller for 2.5 years now and have been happy for the most part.

It operates in a garage in SE Georgia, which means extremely hot and humid ambient temperatures for 4+ months every year. This causes a lot of condensation around the glycol reservoir (the black plastic lid sweats very bad and there is always condensation buildup inside the unit under the reservoir, which leaks out the seams of the housing and puddles up).

My biggest complaint is the temperature controller unit (MH1210F), I’m now on my 4th one. They seem to fail fairly regularly, and I think it may be a moisture issue (buildup inside the unit causing electrical failures on the controller).

The first time it happened I contacted Penguin and they got a new controller shipped out quickly with no charge, great service. Since then I’ve always had at least one spare on hand purchased through eBay, they run ~$12 to $15.

The most recent occurrence was a month ago, and I decided to take the housing off of the chiller and add additional expanding foam insulation and silicone caulk around the glycol reservoir to try to reduce the condensation buildup. I also added a plastic “diverter” to prevent moisture from dripping directly onto the MH1210F controller.

Knock on wood that this solves the failing controller issue! Other than that I’ve enjoyed the Penguin unit and even in extreme ambient conditions I’ve never had a problem with lager ferments maintaining 46*F in my SS Brewtech 7 Gal BME Chronical. I do not cold crash in the fermentor, no need for my process.

At first this type of failure seemed very sporadic, not really able to pin down why some people would have issues with controllers and others never had an issue. We were able to narrow it down that it was typically someone operating is very hot/humid environments, after we figured out what was causing the issue we worked on a way to improve the chiller. We are always looking for ways to improve design/function/reliability/ etc. About 9-12 months ago we added a hood over the back side of the controller to prevent any moisture from dripping on it. It's something that we rivet to the front panel, if you'd like we can send one out, you could likely pre-drill and screw into place. - [email protected]