geologyguy
Well-Known Member
So I am wanting to make this set up. I spent time on it and seems good to me but what do you all think? I would love the input to see if I forgot something? Do I even need the stirrer?
Thoughts on a New Brew system
- Thread starter geologyguy
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I'm gonna be blunt here, your diagram sucks and doesn't make sense how you drew it. Your mash pump has 2 outputs? I think not. You probably mean you are going to use a 3 way valve to allow it to return to the mash tun or go to the BK. You should be more explicit about these kind of details if you want quality feedback. Garbage in = garbage out. I also don't get your flow control valve. Where does this go. It isn't connected to anything. Also have you found a flow control valve you will be using? if you are going to recirculate your mash them you don't need a stirrer. How do you plan on maintaining mash temperatures? You might want to consider recirculating the HLT to avoid temperature stratification. You might want to recirculate the BK at the end of the boil to sanitize your chiller. I would suggest redoing your diagram in more detail to show every valve and fluid path in the system. Then make 1 copy for every step in the brewing process and highlight your fluid paths in each step.
Edit: are the firecrackers your gas burners and the flow control valve used to control the gas flow?
Edit: are the firecrackers your gas burners and the flow control valve used to control the gas flow?
humblehops500
Well-Known Member
Looks gneiss (haha). How big will your batch size be? The keg looks to be very small compared to the other vessels. Looks to be a single-tiered system with three pumps. Couldn't you consolidate the pumps by changing the flow between a couple of the tuns? As for stirring, will you be step infusing or decocting the mash? Single temp infusion won't need to be stirred. Will you be recirculating the wort by RIMS or HERMS? Also, will you employ a false bottom or copper manifold? I am trying to design a manifold system to bottom drain a keggle mash tun, any advice?
muhteeus
Well-Known Member
Why reinvent the wheel? Your diagram does not suck, persay. I see where you are going even though this is not a formal P&ID. I assume you are direct fired?
What I would do is stick to a Kal style setup. Buy two pumps, designated for Water and wort respectively. Thats about the only changes I would make. Keep the stirrer, no such thing as too much automation
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What sort of PLC are you using? Have appropriate IO for FCVs?
What I would do is stick to a Kal style setup. Buy two pumps, designated for Water and wort respectively. Thats about the only changes I would make. Keep the stirrer, no such thing as too much automation
.What sort of PLC are you using? Have appropriate IO for FCVs?
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geologyguy
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info. It got me thinking more. I really appreciate it. So i redesigned it a little. What do you think? Would this work for a 3.5 bbl system? I am more concerned with the mast tun. Would this work or would the wort be scorched?
You can do this fine. As long as you do a continuous recirculation on your mash tun, you won't have scorching issues. With the mass that you'll have for that large of a batch, if you hit your strike temps fine, you'll have minimal temp loss.
Take a look at the links in my sig for my build - it is very similar to the flow you are looking to do.
Have a look at the electric brewery I did (link in signature). I've got a full P&ID on there with a ton of pictures. It's electric instead of gas but some of the recirculation and valve configuration would apply.
BTW your diagram is very hard to decipher. You might try using standard symbols for next revision so we know for sure what you're talking about.
BTW your diagram is very hard to decipher. You might try using standard symbols for next revision so we know for sure what you're talking about.
muhteeus
Well-Known Member
Also,
Heres a link to my P&ID. I'm not a ME or ChemE but here ya go.
LINK
This is based off KALs layout at www.TheElectricBrewery.com. If you check his Brewday: Step by Step you can see how he plumbs his hoses. I just tried my best to hard plumb it with valves. PLCS and automation, youknowwhatimsayin?
Heres a link to my P&ID. I'm not a ME or ChemE but here ya go.
LINK
This is based off KALs layout at www.TheElectricBrewery.com. If you check his Brewday: Step by Step you can see how he plumbs his hoses. I just tried my best to hard plumb it with valves. PLCS and automation, youknowwhatimsayin?
With a drawing like this you could fool just about anyone.
1. I would relocate TT02 to be at the output of the HLT ball valve. You want to control the temperature of the water you are delivering to the MLT for mash in and sparge. This is same as how Kal does it and I agree it's the best way, and its easy to pipe.
2. It looks like you have more valves than you need. Can you explain the intent of each valve here?
3. You mentioned hard piping. What's your CIP plan here?
muhteeus
Well-Known Member
With a drawing like this you could fool just about anyone.
1. I would relocate TT02 to be at the output of the HLT ball valve. You want to control the temperature of the water you are delivering to the MLT for mash in and sparge. This is same as how Kal does it and I agree it's the best way, and its easy to pipe.
2. It looks like you have more valves than you need. Can you explain the intent of each valve here?
3. You mentioned hard piping. What's your CIP plan here?
- I meant to put it there. But I revised too fast!
- More valves? I tried to be consitent with the flow path following kals diagram. The flow paths and sequence can be seen HERE . The two manual valves at the pump outlets are for flow control. The manual valves on the vessels are for monetary concerns! If you can help me on cutting down on valves I am down for that!!!
- I haven't gone through with it. This is a contingency once I get all my vessels and panels done and have settled in (years from now). I would love any ideas on CIP. Im thinking spray balls to each kettle, then just flush everything out to a drain via the main line down where the pumps are. Then I could flush the pumps with hot water.
#2 - Now that I see your equipment phases I think you've put your valves in the correct spots and the functions make sense for what you're doing.
#3 - I don't think spray balls are the right solution for this. Those are more for tanks. You also need really high pressure (e.g. 100 PSI) to operate them correctly. The home brew pumps we use are under 10 PSI. I have some more ideas on the topic but I'll have to elaborate more later. The short version is i wouldn't make it an after thought because you can make it integral to your piping design.
#3 - I don't think spray balls are the right solution for this. Those are more for tanks. You also need really high pressure (e.g. 100 PSI) to operate them correctly. The home brew pumps we use are under 10 PSI. I have some more ideas on the topic but I'll have to elaborate more later. The short version is i wouldn't make it an after thought because you can make it integral to your piping design.
muhteeus
Well-Known Member
#3 Oh, I mean that hard plumbing isn't coming in for years. I plan on working out CIP before I pipe in. And after looking at your PID I might just borrow your ideas
I will be okay with hoses indefinitely #3 Oh, I mean that hard plumbing isn't coming in for years. I plan on working out CIP before I pipe in. And after looking at your PID I might just borrow your ideas
I thought about the idea of hard piping but couldn't come up with enough positives to do it.
Feel free to copy anything I've done, although I don't think much of it is revolutionary. Keep in mind I did RIMS instead of HERMS too so my MLT piping is a bit different.
There are 2 components of my system I really like though, and that seem to be more unique.
1. Constantly recirculating HLT, even during sparge. I built a Tee assembly that aids with this. The sparge water is always 169. Stratification is real, and large.
2. Recirculating BK chilling - This chills the entire volume together so it makes it possible to do things like 170F steeps. Its also very easy to chill. Ground water this time of year is about 40F so i just let it rip for about 5 minutes to get down to ~110 (and the temp out of my plate chiller is reading about 45), then divert to fermenters and run it all out. During the warmer months i'm going to use my MLT as an ice water tank and recirculate the cool water back to the ice bath since it'll still be colder than tap water.
muhteeus
Well-Known Member
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geologyguy
Well-Known Member
Nice man. Looks like you have it all figured out. I think your diagrams will help me out. What did you use for your electronics? Also what program you use to draw your diagrams?
looks like a Brutus10 with fancier controller. I dont see why it wouldnt work
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geologyguy
Well-Known Member
- I meant to put it there. But I revised too fast!
- More valves? I tried to be consitent with the flow path following kals diagram. The flow paths and sequence can be seen HERE
- I haven't gone through with it. This is a contingency once I get all my vessels and panels done and have settled in (years from now). I would love any ideas on CIP. Im thinking spray balls to each kettle, then just flush everything out to a drain via the main line down where the pumps are. Then I could flush the pumps with hot water.
Nice man. Looks like you have it all figured out. I think your diagrams will help me out. What did you use for your electronics? Also what program you use to draw your diagrams?[/QUOTE]
muhteeus
Well-Known Member
Well as schematix mentioned, CIP should be considered HEAVILY for hard plumbing.
My system is powered by a Micrologix1200 (24I,16O,2AI,2AO). Temperature control is done through PID loops in the PLC. I am also using a 1761-NET-ENI with a cheap WiFi bridge to get the PLC on the network. HMI is done through AdvancedHMI (free software). I am about 95% done with the control panels.
The program is google docs and a free P&ID template. The website is at the bottom of the diagram I posted
.BTW. If you want to go the PLC route, I have a Koyo Click PLC I am willing to part with for cheap.
Would you mind posting some pics of your HMI?
muhteeus
Well-Known Member
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