This is what I know about yeast starters:

[CMcPherson]

They are absolutely not needed for cider and I am wasting my time if I use them. In fact, I believe that I can simply flip my pack of yeast the bird and then toss it in the fermenter without opening... package and all and expect a strong fermentation.

Joking aside, I've read every thread that came up on yeast starters in the cider forum. They all recommend searching the forum rather than answering questions. So I've dug up what info that I can find.
Please let me know if my head is on straight or if I'm confused.

A starter should:
Grow for 24-48 hrs.
Be in the 90° range.
Have a SG of ~1.040. (No explanation of why though)
Is best oxygenated on a stir plate.

Am I close?

So I've done a couple. I used a stir plate that I had placed in my bread proofing box at 90°.
One with Nottingham and the other with WL English Cider.
They both took off great but the next morning each were very still with no action. I added a pinch of nutrient and still nothing.
After worrying that I overheated or contaminated them, I decided to test SG on a hunch. Lo and behold they where at 1.000 after just 12 hrs. Is this normal?
So I brought the SG back up (1.060 this time). When they took back off again, this time they were producing nice tight little Champagne like bubbles rather than the brownish low tide looking stuff from the night before. What gives?

I've seen mention of using DME or LME and water rather than juice.
Is this a common practice for cider?

How large a starter for a 5 gal batch? I did qt. starters.

 

[gratus fermentatio]

I never use them with cider, just rehydrate dry yeast as per instructions & pitch; hasn't failed yet.
Regards, GF.

 

[CMcPherson]

:smack:

See what I mean!?

I never use them with cider, just rehydrate dry yeast as per instructions & pitch; hasn't failed yet.
Regards, GF.

Do you believe that a starter shouldn't be used for a liquid yeast either?

Please everybody, I don't care if you use a starter or not.
I do and am looking for some insight on their use.
Please respond if you can answer my specific questions.

 

[Maylar]

I think Mark F uses one - maybe he'll chime in here.

 

[Gavin C]

A starter should:
Grow for 24-48 hrs.

Yes 1-2 days will ensure comple fermentation of the available sugars in most instances.

Be in the 90° range.

No. Room temperature is fine and optimal.

Have a SG of ~1.040. (No explanation of why though)

Here is why 1.040 is the goldilocks gravity
http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2013/05/28/starter-wort-gravity-and-yeast-growth/

Is best oxygenated on a stir plate.

The more exchange of gasses the better.
O2 in and Co2 out. The latter is toxic to yeasts so you want it out of suspension as much as practical.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

they are absolutely not needed for cider and i am wasting my time if i use them. In fact, i believe that i can simply flip my pack of yeast the bird and then toss it in the fermenter without opening... Package and all and expect a strong fermentation.

joking aside, i've read every thread that came up on yeast starters in the cider forum. They all recommend searching the forum rather than answering questions. So i've dug up what info that i can find.
Please let me know if my head is on straight or if i'm confused.

A starter should:
Grow for 24-48 hrs. (sure)
be in the 90° range. (okay, but room temp is also fine)
have a sg of ~1.040. (no explanation of why though) (arbitrary, but geared around optimal yeast growth and limited to reduce osmotic stress.)
is best oxygenated on a stir plate. (air has oxygen too)

am i close? (close enough)

so i've done a couple. I used a stir plate that i had placed in my bread proofing box at 90°.
One with nottingham and the other with wl english cider.
They both took off great but the next morning each were very still with no action. I added a pinch of nutrient and still nothing.
After worrying that i overheated or contaminated them, i decided to test sg on a hunch. Lo and behold they where at 1.000 after just 12 hrs. Is this normal? (yes. There isn't a lot of material for yeast to work with in a typical starter. And the pitch rate is really high.)
so i brought the sg back up (1.060 this time). When they took back off again, this time they were producing nice tight little champagne like bubbles rather than the brownish low tide looking stuff from the night before. What gives? (brownish tide is protein coagulation, by time you did the step the protein had already coagulated)

i've seen mention of using dme or lme and water rather than juice.
Is this a common practice for cider? (just common for starters)

how large a starter for a 5 gal batch? I did qt. Starters. (based heavily on sg with a goal cell count. Apps like mr malty are best to ballpark this, even for ciders.)

2

 

[MarkKF]

I never use them with cider, just rehydrate dry yeast as per instructions & pitch; hasn't failed yet.
Regards, GF.

I always use them. A growler half full of just cider with a packet of dry yeast. Shake vigorously every 6-8 hous. After 24 hrs. add to the must. Same basement temp for starter and must. Hasn't failed me yet.

 

[CMcPherson]

Thank you both for the great info!
I really like the Braukaiser website.

Yes 1-2 days will ensure complete fermentation of the available sugars in most instances.

Was bringing my starter back up in SG after it went to 0 after 12 hrs a bad idea? At first I was planning on continuing to "feed" my starter for several days in order to keep them multiplying as mush as possible. Then I realized that I would be subjecting them to high ABV juice. Bad idea right?
What if I let the yeast settle out, drain of the fermented juice (possibly adding it to the juice waiting to be inoculated) and added back fresh 1.040 juice? Would this work or would a larger starter to begin with be better?
The starter fermenting out so quickly would be cured by using a larger starter correct?
I'm basing my questions on my assumption that yeast are not multiplying if they are not converting sugar. Is this a correct assumption?

The more exchange of gasses the better.
O2 in and Co2 out. The latter is toxic to yeasts so you want it out of suspension as much as practical.

I've switched to doing my primary in open top buckets so that I can give them a good stir several times a day.
How long is it recommended that I do this? Am I looking for krausen activity to slow down, a certain SG or elapsed time?

 

[Gavin C]

Thank you both for the great info!
I really like the Braukaiser website.

No worries. His website and wiki are brilliant. So much evidence based info in one place it's staggering. What a legend. Glad it was useful to you.

Was bringing my starter back up in SG after it went to 0 after 12 hrs a bad idea? Would this work or would a larger starter to begin with be better?
The starter fermenting out so quickly would be cured by using a larger starter correct?
I'm basing my questions on my assumption that yeast are not multiplying if they are not converting sugar. Is this a correct assumption?

Starters have 1 primary objective. Increase the yeast biomass via cell growth. This requires food and the amount of food is what dictates maximal potential growth.

Upping he SG of the starer by adding more nutrients was a bad idea for a number of reasons.
Less return on added nutrients
Upping ABV will stress the yeast (you don't want that)

The gravity dropping to ~1.000 is entirely expected with a simple sugar starter.

I believe it is an incorrect assumption you have made on yeast growth. Doesn't ring true with my knowledge of the subject and is largely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Regarding open fermentation and cider and repeated stirring/aeration in the primary, this is not something I am knowledgable in. I am a very inexperienced cider maker so will restrict my answers to the starter question. I believe my info to be reasonably sound in that regard but I primarily make beer with an occasional cider. I am very ignorant of many aspects of cider making.

FWIW, I have not come across that technique you describe for open cider fermentations and repeated aerations of the must.

Sorry I can't be more help.

Best of luck with your cider making.

 

[CMcPherson]

I'm basing my questions on my assumption that yeast are not multiplying if they are not converting sugar. Is this a correct assumption?

Starters have 1 primary objective. Increase the yeast biomass via cell growth. This requires food and the amount of food is what dictates maximal potential growth.

I believe it is an incorrect assumption you have made on yeast growth. Doesn't ring true with my knowledge of the subject and is largely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Am I missing something then? It appears that we are both saying that they need food (sugar) in order to reproduce themselves.

Regarding open fermentation and cider and repeated stirring/aeration in the primary, this is not something I am knowledgable in. I am a very inexperienced cider maker so will restrict my answers to the starter question. I believe my info to be reasonably sound in that regard but I primarily make beer with an occasional cider. I am very ignorant of many aspects of cider making.

FWIW, I have not come across that technique you describe for open cider fermentations and repeated aerations of the must.

Sorry I can't be more help.

Best of luck with your cider making.

Thank you for taking your time with a cider maker then.

 

[Gavin C]

I think I miss read your assumption. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[CMcPherson]

No problem.
So yeast does need sugar to reproduce.
Do you have an opinion on my thought of:

At first I was planning on continuing to "feed" my starter for several days in order to keep them multiplying as much as possible. Then I realized that I would be subjecting them to high ABV juice. Bad idea.
What if I let the yeast settle out, drain of the fermented juice (possibly adding it to the juice waiting to be inoculated) and added back fresh 1.040 juice? Would this work or would a larger starter to begin with be better?
The starter fermenting out so quickly would be cured by using a larger starter correct?

Thank you for your patients.

 

[Gavin C]

No worries man. Happy to help if I can.

My preference is for larger starters. I can't recall the last time I stepped one up.

A 5L flask helps with this.

I wouldn't be concerned with the speed of fermentation of a starter. The yeast aren't going anywhere in a time-frame of days.

Grow the yeast.

Pop it in the fridge to chill days in a dance of decanting and pitching.

I do it every time I use liquid yeast.

Starter 2 days on stir plate at full speed. Harvest overbid for future use and chill the remaining starter volume for 2-3 days. Decant and pitch on brewery.

Can't see why it would need to be different for cider making aside from the makeup of the starter.

More on starters in my signature below. Might be some useful info there. maybe not.

 

[CMcPherson]

Thanks!
So "stepping up" a starter is actually a thing then? I'll look more into it!
My first one fermented out in about 12 hrs. It was only 1 qt so I guess I need to go bigger.
Great thread on starters.
I'll pass it on to all of the ciders makers that ask here but don't get any answers.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

You can do a stepped starter or a larger one, whichever you want. When I do stepped starters, I usually harvest a 50mL slurry for later in between decanting and stepping up.

I use the starter calculator at brewunited, link in sig.

 

[CMcPherson]

Thank you.