This is a typo, right?

[TimmyWit]

Looking to do a Saison this weekend so I have been browsing recipes. I found one called Dave's Original Saison that looks nice. But, 20-30 minute mash for pilsner malt? 155F mash for a saison? What gives? This is a typo, right?

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/2499/MJzym08_Saisons.pdf

 

[beergolf]

It must be a typo. For a Saison a 155 mash is way too high and only 20-30 minutes is not right either.

 

[LoloMT7]

Check out this one it's a winner. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f71/shipwrecked-saison-439724/index6.html

or this one has good feedback https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f71/cottage-house-saison-254684/

 

[chocotaco]

155 is not necessarily a typo. Saison is a wide range of possibilities and it depends on what he was trying to do with the recipe.

Keep in mind that some saison yeasts will chew through pretty much anything and attenuate like a monster. Maybe he really wanted to avoid getting an over-dry end result, with the idea that a little maltiness would bring out the flavor from the orange peel and grains of paradise.

That said, 20-30 minutes is way too short of a mash and would only kill your efficiency rather than preventing over-attenuation. My guess is he either started with a protein rest and then deleted the wrong stuff, or he wrote the extract version first and confused himself.

But if I had a little more time on my hands I would be tempted to just follow his instructions to the letter and see how it turns out.

 

[user 19629]

Try looking in the next issue, and see if they printed a correction.

 

[TimmyWit]

Check out this one it's a winner. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f71/shipwrecked-saison-439724/index6.html

or this one has good feedback https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f71/cottage-house-saison-254684/

The shipwrecked Saison looks nice. I may go that route. I already have a starter going of 3724 so it may end up being a different beer. I will probably end up pitching some 3711 to finish it off nice and dry since 3724 doesn't attenuate well. If I go that route, I'll report results back to the thread you provided. Thanx

 

[TimmyWit]

Try looking in the next issue, and see if they printed a correction.

That is a great idea. I didn't even notice that the article came from Zymurgy. But, I just went and checked the next 3 issues and none of them had a correction for the Saison.

 

[beergolf]

I will probably end up pitching some 3711 to finish it off nice and dry since 3724 doesn't attenuate well. If I go that route, I'll report results back to the thread you provided. Thanx

3724 attenuates just fine if you controll the temps. The last saison I brewed with 3724 finished at 1.004.

 

[TimmyWit]

3724 attenuates just fine if you controll the temps. The last saison I brewed with 3724 finished at 1.004.

I brewed it last summer and pushed it all the way up to ~85F using a brew belt. I couldn't get it past 1.012 and I wasn't happy with the final product. How did you get it down to 1.004? Maybe I didn't push the temp up fast enough?

 

[sweetcell]

i've read (need to dig up the source) that with highly modified malts most conversion is done in the first 20 minutes. like 90-95% complete in 20 minutes, and the rest of the time is to squeeze out those last few percentages. so maybe 20-30 minutes isn't so crazy...

 

[2bluewagons]

Looking to do a Saison this weekend so I have been browsing recipes. I found one called Dave's Original Saison that looks nice. But, 20-30 minute mash for pilsner malt? 155F mash for a saison? What gives? This is a typo, right?

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/2499/MJzym08_Saisons.pdf

No, probably not. Dave Lodgson left Wyeast to start Lodgson Farmhouse Ales, a small but hugely decorated brewery in Hood River, OR. The man knows how to make a saison.

As others have hinted at above, most saison yeasts, especially 3711, do not care what you mash at. My last saison was mashed at 155, and 3711 chewed it down to 1.004 I think.

As far as the mash, at 155 deg. F the enzyme reactions are happening much faster than at lower temps, so 30 minutes will be fine. Do a starch test at 30 min, and as long as your pH is good it should be fully converted. I usually let my mash go full 60, but 90% of the time it's done in 30-40 minutes.

Don't fear it, just brew it.

 

[Weezy]

Yeah, 155 isn't crazy. If you run the Belgian yeasts up to high temps, they really sry out the beer. Getting some long chain sugars in there to hopefully survive the ride is a fine idea. I like a well attenuated beer but not mouth puckering dry.

 

[TimmyWit]

Drinking: 2-way Belgian Blond (3724+3711 vs. 3725)

Sweetcell, care to share more about this beer that you're drinking now? Looks interesting

 

[TimmyWit]

No, probably not. Dave Lodgson left Wyeast to start Lodgson Farmhouse Ales, a small but hugely decorated brewery in Hood River, OR. The man knows how to make a saison.

As others have hinted at above, most saison yeasts, especially 3711, do not care what you mash at. My last saison was mashed at 155, and 3711 chewed it down to 1.004 I think.

As far as the mash, at 155 deg. F the enzyme reactions are happening much faster than at lower temps, so 30 minutes will be fine. Do a starch test at 30 min, and as long as your pH is good it should be fully converted. I usually let my mash go full 60, but 90% of the time it's done in 30-40 minutes.

Don't fear it, just brew it.

I just did a little digging and it looks like Logsdon does prefer his Saisons on the malty side. He also uses a blend of 4 yeasts. This will be a fun experiment to put on deck. This weekend I'm using 3724 and a slightly under-modified pilsner malt so I'm not sure this method will be ideal. I have been doing an extended mash for anything with pilsner so this method is new to me.

http://www.oregonlive.com/mix/index.ssf/beer/brewer_david_logsdon_makes_flavorful_beers_using_n.html

 

[sweetcell]

Sweetcell, care to share more about this beer that you're drinking now? Looks interesting

slightly off-topic...

i have an 11 gallon system and i typically split my batch in some way. in the case of "2-way Belgian Blond (3724+3711 vs. 3725)", as the name implies, one carboy got 3724+3711 (belgian and french saison) while the other got 3725 (biere de garde, AKA fantome yeast). the 3724+3711 was washed from a previous batch where i pitched the 3724 first then finished up with the 3711. so for this batch the two yeasts were already mixed together. i prefer the 3724+3711 half to the 3725 half, but only slightly. both are really good. brewed this about 6 months ago, only have a few bottles of each left. the 3724+3711 will be one of my NHC entries this year.

i'll post the recipe tonight. apparently i haven't uploaded to my my BeerSmith cloud. yet.

 

[sweetcell]

i'll post the recipe tonight. apparently i haven't uploaded to my my BeerSmith cloud. yet.

here's the recipe: http://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/389900/2-way-belgian-blond

(sorry, forgot to set it to "shared" last night when i uploaded it so you might not have been able to view it. i've just fixed that)

 

[prohl84]

i've read (need to dig up the source) that with highly modified malts most conversion is done in the first 20 minutes. like 90-95% complete in 20 minutes, and the rest of the time is to squeeze out those last few percentages. so maybe 20-30 minutes isn't so crazy...

AFAIK most pilsner malts are not highly modified.

 

[TimmyWit]

3724 attenuates just fine if you controll the temps. The last saison I brewed with 3724 finished at 1.004.

Beergolf, you were right! I ended up going with a basic recipe from Farmhouse Ales. I pushed it up to 82F and after 8 days, 3724 chomped it all the way down to 1.004 from 1.060. I pushed the temps up last time I used 3724 but I did do a few things different this time: I made a larger than usual (3L) starter and aerated longer than normal as well (90s vs 60s). I was getting ready to make that starter of 3711 tonight but figured I'd take a quick gravity reading. What a nice surprise!

 

[beergolf]

Beergolf, you were right! I ended up going with a basic recipe from Farmhouse Ales. I pushed it up to 82F and after 8 days, 3724 chomped it all the way down to 1.004 from 1.060. I pushed the temps up last time I used 3724 but I did do a few things different this time: I made a larger than usual (3L) starter and aerated longer than normal as well (90s vs 60s). I was getting ready to make that starter of 3711 tonight but figured I'd take a quick gravity reading. What a nice surprise!

The key with this yeast is to always have the temp going up. As fermentation slows, just keep adding a degree or two. I usually add a couple degrees in the morning and a couple more at night until I get it to where I want it. Never had a problem.

Drinking a Black Saison that used 3724 right now. Yum.