Third Bad Batch - Old, flat, stale

[Vmazzu]

Anyone have guidance to address a stale, old beer taste?

Over the last year or so I took up homebrewing on a 5-gallon extract setup and put out 3 batches. The resulting product has been unpalatable -- it mostly tastes and smells like old stale beer (like a frat-party-morning-after smell), and my first two batches were poorly (and not uniformly) carbonated.

It's been a learning process, and thanks to the substantial resources online and on this forum, I think I may have addressed the carbonation issue. (I bottle condition/carbonate, so I've focused on ensuring proper temperature for the yeast and providing sufficient head space.)

What remains is the stale taste and smell. I most recently made a saison using a kit from a popular website. As directed, after two weeks in primary (big mouth bubbler) I transferred to secondary (6 gallon bucket with airlock). I left it in secondary for about 5 weeks (not by design). When I transferred to secondary, I took a taste -- It smelled and tasted like an un-carbonated saison. I also obsessively sanitized and cleaned my equipment and bottles for this third batch. But, by the time I bottled, the beer caught the same stink and taste that I found in my previous batches. I similarly left the first two batches in secondary (same bucket) for at least 4 weeks.

After some research, I see that many homebrewers forego the secondary stage entirely and, that 5 weeks in a bucket likely resulted in oxygenating the beer as the bucket is not airtight.

Any and all tips welcome! My sense is I should/could forget secondary entirely and maybe even bottle after about 2 weeks in primary. Could I primary in the bucket and secondary in the bubbler/carboy? Any other thoughts?

 

[Br3w4u]

Anyone have guidance to address a stale, old beer taste?

Over the last year or so I took up homebrewing on a 5-gallon extract setup and put out 3 batches. The resulting product has been unpalatable -- it mostly tastes and smells like old stale beer (like a frat-party-morning-after smell), and my first two batches were poorly (and not uniformly) carbonated.

It's been a learning process, and thanks to the substantial resources online and on this forum, I think I may have addressed the carbonation issue. (I bottle condition/carbonate, so I've focused on ensuring proper temperature for the yeast and providing sufficient head space.)

What remains is the stale taste and smell. I most recently made a saison using a kit from a popular website. As directed, after two weeks in primary (big mouth bubbler) I transferred to secondary (6 gallon bucket with airlock). I left it in secondary for about 5 weeks (not by design). When I transferred to secondary, I took a taste -- It smelled and tasted like an un-carbonated saison. I also obsessively sanitized and cleaned my equipment and bottles for this third batch. But, by the time I bottled, the beer caught the same stink and taste that I found in my previous batches. I similarly left the first two batches in secondary (same bucket) for at least 4 weeks.

After some research, I see that many homebrewers forego the secondary stage entirely and, that 5 weeks in a bucket likely resulted in oxygenating the beer as the bucket is not airtight.

Any and all tips welcome! My sense is I should/could forget secondary entirely and maybe even bottle after about 2 weeks in primary. Could I primary in the bucket and secondary in the bubbler/carboy? Any other thoughts?

You are getting on the right track. Secondary isn’t necessary unless you are wanting to ferment for a second time with additional fermentables like fruit or something. I usually don’t even do a secondary for that, I just throw it all in the primary. So yes likely oxidized from all the transfers and might also not be fully saturated with CO2 when you drink it or it didn’t have enough priming sugar. So tip 1 I would suggest leaving it in the primary until you are ready to bottle but wouldn’t suggest more than 3 weeks on the yeast. 2 look up a reliable carbonation chart when priming and gently stir your priming solution in to the beer before bottling. 3 store the bottles at room temp like in a closet or somewhere out of the way and try to forget about them for at least 2 weeks to give it time to absorb the CO2. Lastly if you are going to stick with the hobby I highly suggest planning for kegs in the future because it’s way easier, saves time, and can be a more satisfying experience. Good luck!

 

[deadwolfbones]

I would add that extract isn't likely to be your culprit, unless it's very old. (Like any ingredient, fresher is better.) I've made some excellent beers with extract that lasted for a long time in the bottle without noticeable falloff. Don't think you need to go AG to get decent-tasting beer.

 

[davidabcd]

It does sound like oxidation. Do whatever you can to eliminate that. I don't know what your exact process is for transferring, how often you open the fermenter, if air has been allowed to come in contact with the beer for too long or stay in contact with the beer.
As stated above, primary is fine for the whole process in almost all cases.
I'm sure kegging is awesome. I don't go through enough beer to warrant that step. Personally, I enjoy the additional step of carbonating the beer. Many do both.
good luck.

 

[Rob2010SS]

I think @davidabcd hit it on the head.

Can you give a little detail on the steps you use to transfer to secondary and the bottling bucket, as well as how you fill your bottles?

 

[GPP33]

You mentioned a stink. Is the beer exposed to any type of light? Generally oxidation makes beer bland, not necessarily stinky. UV is the first thing that comes to mind if an uninfected beer starts to smell bad.

 

[RM-MN]

Anyone have guidance to address a stale, old beer taste?

Over the last year or so I took up homebrewing on a 5-gallon extract setup and put out 3 batches. The resulting product has been unpalatable -- it mostly tastes and smells like old stale beer (like a frat-party-morning-after smell), and my first two batches were poorly (and not uniformly) carbonated.

It's been a learning process, and thanks to the substantial resources online and on this forum, I think I may have addressed the carbonation issue. (I bottle condition/carbonate, so I've focused on ensuring proper temperature for the yeast and providing sufficient head space.)

What remains is the stale taste and smell. I most recently made a saison using a kit from a popular website. As directed, after two weeks in primary (big mouth bubbler) I transferred to secondary (6 gallon bucket with airlock). I left it in secondary for about 5 weeks (not by design). When I transferred to secondary, I took a taste -- It smelled and tasted like an un-carbonated saison. I also obsessively sanitized and cleaned my equipment and bottles for this third batch. But, by the time I bottled, the beer caught the same stink and taste that I found in my previous batches. I similarly left the first two batches in secondary (same bucket) for at least 4 weeks.

After some research, I see that many homebrewers forego the secondary stage entirely and, that 5 weeks in a bucket likely resulted in oxygenating the beer as the bucket is not airtight.

Any and all tips welcome! My sense is I should/could forget secondary entirely and maybe even bottle after about 2 weeks in primary. Could I primary in the bucket and secondary in the bubbler/carboy? Any other thoughts?

The bucket secondary is your biggest problem, exacerbated but the long time. The bucket exposed a large area of your beer to oxygen and you gave it plenty of time to get the stale smell/taste. The only vessel you should use for secondary is the smallest carboy it will fit into so the beer comes up into the neck of the carboy. That leaves a very small space and the remaining CO2 dissoved in your beer will be able to push the oxygen out as it outgasses.

Most beers don't need any secondary. Unless you know for certain that your beer has to be in secondary (very few do) don't use one. You can leave your beer in the primary for a long time if you keep it closed with an airlock to keep the oxygen out and the CO2 in. I've left one beer for 9 weeks and I've been told that much longer is still OK.

When you are ready to bottle, weigh out (weigh, not measure, density of sugar may not always be the same) the sugar and dissolve it in hot water. Start siphoning your beer from the fermenter to the bottling bucket, then pour (carefully down the side of the bottling bucket to minimize the exposure to oxygen) the sugar water in. That will help it to mix. Make sure your siphon is long enough to reach the bottom of the bucket and keep the end submerged as well as you can. Mine will loop at least half way around the bucket so the beer starts a swirling motion which helps mix in the sugar. A slow stir with a sanitized spoon will finish the mixing.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

It's been a learning process, and thanks to the substantial resources online and on this forum, I think I may have addressed the carbonation issue. (I bottle condition/carbonate, so I've focused on ensuring proper temperature for the yeast and providing sufficient head space.)

I started earlier this year and am still relatively new to brewing, only about 10 batches. You've already gotten some great advice from the vets. I think oxidation sounds like a big issue for you, but I wanted to address the above statement. What do you mean providing sufficient head space? Honestly when I'm bottling I try to leave as little head space as possible. It's impossible to have none, because as I pull the bottling wand out the beer level inevitably drops a bit, but I think head space is your enemy and you should aim to have very little.

 

[Vmazzu]

Very helpful, thanks!

 

[Vmazzu]

I started earlier this year and am still relatively new to brewing, only about 10 batches. You've already gotten some great advice from the vets. I think oxidation sounds like a big issue for you, but I wanted to address the above statement. What do you mean providing sufficient head space? Honestly when I'm bottling I try to leave as little head space as possible. It's impossible to have none, because as I pull the bottling wand out the beer level inevitably drops a bit, but I think head space is your enemy and you should aim to have very little.

My first batches I did not use a bottling wand, just eye-balled it with a bit of tubing. For one, that meant the headspace was inconsistent across the batch because I eye-balled it. Secondly, I erred on leaving less headspace--around 1/2 inch. I have read that too little headspace can result in under-carbonation, and that a bottling wand, used properly, results in sufficient carbonation. Does that sound right to you? Anyway, that's what I did on this batch and I'm expecting better carbonation.

 

[TechFanMD]

I started earlier this year and am still relatively new to brewing, only about 10 batches. You've already gotten some great advice from the vets. I think oxidation sounds like a big issue for you, but I wanted to address the above statement. What do you mean providing sufficient head space? Honestly when I'm bottling I try to leave as little head space as possible. It's impossible to have none, because as I pull the bottling wand out the beer level inevitably drops a bit, but I think head space is your enemy and you should aim to have very little.

If you have no head space then you need to create less CO2 (less priming sugar). If you accidentally over-prime, even a little bit, you run a higher risk of bottles bursting. It also leaves little room for a foam-up when opening a bottle. Normally, the bottle filler occupies just the right amount of space in the bottle that, once removed, leaves a correct amount of head space. It also allows for some thermal expansion should your carbonated beer get too warm (again, risk of broken bottles). You might care lovingly for your beer at home, but if you give some to friends and family - leave the head space the filler automatically provides.

 

[Vmazzu]

I think @davidabcd hit it on the head.

Can you give a little detail on the steps you use to transfer to secondary and the bottling bucket, as well as how you fill your bottles?

Transfer to secondary, now that I think of it, was probably where I went wrong. My primary has a spigot, so I placed the secondary underneath and opened the spigot. There was a lot of frothy bubbles... smh. I'll avoid this next time.

Transferring from secondary to my bottling bucket (the aforementioned primary with spigot) I used a siphon and was very careful -- the siphoned beer made first contact with the side of the bucket so as to slow it down. To bottle, I attached some tubing and a bottling wand to the spigot and opened the spigot. That let me bottle with very little apparent aeration of the beer.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Transfer to secondary, now that I think of it, was probably where I went wrong. My primary has a spigot, so I placed the secondary underneath and opened the spigot. There was a lot of frothy bubbles... smh. I'll avoid this next time.

This ^ is most likely your problem. All of the splashing and the frothy bubbles you mentioned are the exact thing you want to avoid when transferring. The splashing definitely aerated your beer at a point you needed to avoid oxygen. Definitely eliminate this in the future.

 

[TechFanMD]

Transfer to secondary, now that I think of it, was probably where I went wrong. My primary has a spigot, so I placed the secondary underneath and opened the spigot. There was a lot of frothy bubbles... smh. I'll avoid this next time.

Transferring from secondary to my bottling bucket (the aforementioned primary with spigot) I used a siphon and was very careful -- the siphoned beer made first contact with the side of the bucket so as to slow it down. To bottle, I attached some tubing and a bottling wand to the spigot and opened the spigot. That let me bottle with very little apparent aeration of the beer.

Thats definitely it! That would be a ton of air. First, definitely skip the secondary.....but any time you transfer beer it needs to be syphoned or transferred in some way that minimizes splashing. If syphoning, have enough tube to reach the bottom of the bucket so that the end is submerges quickly.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

If you have no head space then you need to create less CO2 (less priming sugar). If you accidentally over-prime, even a little bit, you run a higher risk of bottles bursting. It also leaves little room for a foam-up when opening a bottle. Normally, the bottle filler occupies just the right amount of space in the bottle that, once removed, leaves a correct amount of head space. It also allows for some thermal expansion should your carbonated beer get too warm (again, risk of broken bottles). You might care lovingly for your beer at home, but if you give some to friends and family - leave the head space the filler automatically provides.

Right, that was my point. The bottle filler leaves a small amount but I think you should shoot for having no more than that. Oxygen resides in that headspace, seems like the less you have the better. If your bottles are foaming up when you open them something went wrong. Sometimes when I bottle the very last bottle won't be filled all the way, and I've just capped anyways. I've noticed oxidation with some of those.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

My first batches I did not use a bottling wand, just eye-balled it with a bit of tubing. For one, that meant the headspace was inconsistent across the batch because I eye-balled it. Secondly, I erred on leaving less headspace--around 1/2 inch. I have read that too little headspace can result in under-carbonation, and that a bottling wand, used properly, results in sufficient carbonation. Does that sound right to you? Anyway, that's what I did on this batch and I'm expecting better carbonation.

Bottling wand is a must if you're bottling IMO. If you're using the bottling wand, fill it all the way to the top, then pull it out and you should be good to go. And I mean fill it all the way to the top before you pull the wand, I usually have beer drippings all over my floor after bottling. It seems like that leaves about an inch or so of headspace, similar to what you see on commercials beers bottles.

 

[RM-MN]

Transfer to secondary, now that I think of it, was probably where I went wrong. My primary has a spigot, so I placed the secondary underneath and opened the spigot. There was a lot of frothy bubbles... smh. I'll avoid this next time.

Transferring from secondary to my bottling bucket (the aforementioned primary with spigot) I used a siphon and was very careful -- the siphoned beer made first contact with the side of the bucket so as to slow it down. To bottle, I attached some tubing and a bottling wand to the spigot and opened the spigot. That let me bottle with very little apparent aeration of the beer.

If the end of the tubing wasn't submerged quickly this is the second time you oxidated the beer. Beer in a thin layer running down the side of the bucket would pick up a lot of oxygen.

 

[balrog]

Yes. Submerge the tubing when racking; you always want to fill from underneath whether racking to bottling bucket or filling a bottle. Use more tubing or as I did in the beginning, raise the receiving vessel. Whatever it takes to get the tubing all the way to the bottom so you fill from underneath the beer.

 

[Vmazzu]

Lots to chew on here. Thanks a TON for all the help!