Third AG Failure...Ideas?

[bigdongsr94]

I have only made three AG batches. First time when taking a sample from the fermentation bucket I noticed an "off" smell. I would describe it as smelling of corn. So i did a little research and thought i had DMS issues due to not boiling hard enough. I really did not boil hard enough. Changes to my system and my stupidity actually allowed me to do the next batch and not boil hard again. I had an issue and only one heater was working so it was a small boil again. Third time was a good rolling boil. Corn smell was believed to be gone but the beer is now in keg and still has a corn smell. The smell isnt as bad as the first two batches but it tastse bad as well. I have only done a few extract brews but they turned out pretty well.

Recipe: It is known as the Centennial Blonde I think. Many have brewed.
Slightly moded. 8 lbs 2row, .5 lbs Crystal 10, .5 lbs vienna, .5 carapils. Hops are 2 - .25 oz Centennial additions and 2 - .25 Cascade additions. 60 Min Mash and 60 Min boil. Irish added at 15 min.

System: 8 gal alum pot. 2 - 1500 Watt heating elements. BIAB. Sparged on one batch others simply squeezed. OG and FG were good on all batches. Added a little extract on one batch. My system is too small to start mash with full volume so i add a gallon for full volume after mash. True BIAB is full volume no sparge, i do not feel that my sparging and volumes are a problem. Cooling is done promptly using a 20ft copper coil and submerging the pot in ice.

I do not know my water pH. Maybe next batch is with bottled. I have no idea what has ruined three batches. This is an ale yet i still get a distinct corn smell. The taste is just very bitter and not good. I also have a stainless 42 qt stainelss pot but have not yet done my electric conversion. Thanks. Donnie

 

[MrManifesto]

if it really is DMS and you have a weak boil, could you move to a 90min boil? your hop additions would still start at the 60min of course.

 

[weirdboy]

You can also get DMS due to underpitching and/or poor fermentation, long lag times, etc.

How has your fermentation been for these batches?

Are you sure it's 2 row and not pilsner malt? Pilsner has a higher SMM content (precursor to DMS) and is much more likely to produce DMS.

I would also change to 90 minute boils if this is a consistent problem, as it seems to be. 3-time Ninkasi winner Gordon Strong does 90 minute boils for almost all of his beers.

 

[bigdongsr94]

Fermentation, this is a quick batch. It was simply two weeks. First two batches were one wk primary one sec. Last batch was in pri for two weeks. Each was down to about 1.010 fg. Starts quickly in about 24 hrs using smack packs. 1056 each time.
Last batch was more like a 70 min boil. Made sure it was boiling well before additions. These three batches were weeks apart with different trips to brew shop so I don't think there was a mixup on my malt. Would have been a new bucket at the shop by then as well. I listen to podcasts and was considering a 90min boil. Like I said I did extend it a bit and this I the first of the three that made it to keg. Others I just dumped.

 

[Weizenwerks]

Water is the last thing to worry about in brewing.

Concerns me that you squeezed the bag. Never do that again. You can release tannins into your wort.

 

[bigdongsr94]

Well I actually see that another thread sounds very similar to mine. It is suggesting water pH due to it releasing tannins. I am not sure if my bag squeeze is a big deal but I will keep it in mind. I know I have read many "bag squeezing" examples in the past and it has not been an issue.

 

[bigdongsr94]

Most BIAB brewers are under the rule that water pH and temperature release tannins. I think I will be looking into some pH gear for measurement and research what I should be seeing. Keep any suggestions coming though thanks.

 

[mikeysab]

Its not squeezing the bag that's givng you a problem. Are you leaving the cover off the pot the whole time during your boil? I don't know the science behind it, but in Brewing Classic Styles, JZ suggests a 90 minute boil for every recipe. Give it a shot.

 

[Weizenwerks]

I don't know the science behind it, but in Brewing Classic Styles, JZ suggests a 90 minute boil for every recipe.

False. Read the book again.

 

[bigdongsr94]

Yes I boil with the cover off. To release dms. First batch I did not and it was possibly an issue.

 

[eastoak]

Water is the last thing to worry about in brewing.

Concerns me that you squeezed the bag. Never do that again. You can release tannins into your wort.

not true at all. squeezing a grain bag will not release tannins, let's put that myth to rest please. thank you.

 

[mikeysab]

False. Read the book again.

Ya got me, MOST recipes call for a 90 minute boil.

 

[bigdongsr94]

This I a simple ale. 60 min is fine. Grains that are malted at lower temps for pilsner and lagers typically use a 90 min boil. I don't think it's an issue but actually I will prob just do it anyway. I am not going to brew again tho until I get a different theory.

 

[Parkinson1963]

I did a quick check of your water, I assume you get water from the Columbus water system. The water is okay for hardness (122) with a pH around 7 to 8. My only suggestion is do a hard boil for the full 60 to 90 min, lid off and carbon filter your water to remove the chlorine that will be present. The chloramines may be the source of the off odour.

 

[bigdongsr94]

Wow. Thanks for the check of my water but the trouble is I am on a different water system. Delco Water which is deleware county. I have pulled their report and while using Palmers explanations and graphs i still do not see what I need on the Delco report. Does anyone know what I would like to see when I use litmus paper and try to read my pH. I think 5.2 to 5.6 but can i do this to just the water or do i have to read at the start of mash. I think it is necessary at both times but in brewing a light ale where should my water be before dough in?

 

[jbsg02]

I'm no pro, but isn't that also an off flavor of an infection too?

 

[Weizenwerks]

not true at all. squeezing a grain bag will not release tannins, let's put that myth to rest please. thank you.

Yes it will.

 

[mikeysab]

Maybe for you. I've done plenty of all gran batches where I've squeezed the grain with no ill effects whatsoever. So have many other peole. If you're getting tannin flavors, its from another area, not squeezing grain.

 

[mikeysab]

Since you enjoy reading so much, read through this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/do-you-squeeze-bag-biab-177051/

 

[samc]

+1 - zip/nada/nil/no on the tannin myth. squeeze on!

 

[Weizenwerks]

Since you enjoy reading so much, read through this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/do-you-squeeze-bag-biab-177051/

I'll trust the brewing instructors that trained me at Weihenstephan, thanks.

 

[tesilential]

I'll trust the brewing instructors that trained me at Weihenstephan, thanks.

They taught you BIAB?

Tannin extraction is caused by high temps and pH. I always squeeze my bags with no tannins in the beer. Even if you just hang the bag from a pulley the grain is under more pressure than a traditional mash.

I also mash thinner than 2 qt per pound with no adverse side effects.

Brew science is constantly evolving, let's not get stuck on what we already "know."

 

[mikeysab]

I'll trust the brewing instructors that trained me at Weihenstephan, thanks.

You learned how to brew at Weinhenstephan and your two contributions to a question about corn flavor are that you shouldn't squeeze the grain and water chemistry is the least important part of brewing? Oh, and that not EVERY recipe in BCS calls for a 90 minute boil. You either didn't pay attention, or they're not doing a very good job teaching brewing over there. I'm certanly no pro and even I know those two statements are false

 

[captainL]

I'd try treating your water for chloramine. 1 campden tablet treats 20 gallons. So 1/4 tablet for 5 gallons. They are cheap bag of 50 for like 1 or 2 dollars. I crush mine stir it in the water right before I start heating it for the mash. Chloramine can give a bandaid/medicinal smell. Maybe you are interpreting it as corn. A LOT of water municipals are using it now instead of chlorine.

Definetely look into the ph. Ward labs for like $17 and EZ water calculator on here. If its not the problem it will still make your brews better.

And I vote that squeezing the bag won't extract tannins unless you ph/temps are high.

 

[bigdongsr94]

Thanks a lot. I may brew again this weekend. I will do same recipe, it's cheap. Def want to do some litmus paper and campden first research first. I need to know how it affects the pH. I listened to a brew strong podcast on tannins and I do think it Is the issue. I first perceived it as DMS but have done a lot to prove that false. I do like the fighting about squeezing the bag but tried to just stay out of it. For the record quality brewers confirm this is no an issue unless the tannins were already released from the husks due to ph or temp. If not already released into the liquid I believe you would have a hell of a time squeezing them out. Aussies who created BIAB I think are the best reference and squeeze the hell out of it also. They also brew whole volume and none of that 1.5qt /lbs. crap but thats another issue for people to put the gloves on about.

 

[Weizenwerks]

You learned how to brew at Weinhenstephan and your two contributions to a question about corn flavor are that you shouldn't squeeze the grain and water chemistry is the least important part of brewing?

I never said water chemistry is the least important part of brewing, I said it should be worried about last. There are far more important things to focus on with brewing than water. When everything else is under control and set, then learn water chemistry. Water is just as important as anything else in brewing as water created styles of beer as much as regional ingredients. Learn brewing, then learn water. That's what I'm saying.

Corn flavor or aroma is generally DMS and people have responded to that end. Why keep repeating what others are offering? Now the OP has stated according to his testing it's unlikely to be DMS as the issue so further investigation is warranted. It appears the OP has only done 3 batches and should focus on other aspects of brewing rather than water. Since I'm of the minority opinion, I'll let you guys hack it out.

 

[3sheetsEMJ]

Has no one brought up the fact that youre leaving in the primary for only one week?? Why? Secondary "fermentation" is used mainly to clear the beer, there isbt actually much fermentation happening. I have brewed a total of 2 batches with primary fermentarion of less than 2 weeks and guess what happened? They both had off flavors. I was told its because yeast has to 'clean up after itself' which is why u need to keep it in the primary for 2 weeks min. I dont even use secondary fermentors, i just use whirlfloc and cold crash my beer for a day or two before kegging. Produces crystal clear beer.

Heres what id do if i were you:

Primary 2-3 weeks
Cold crash for last 2 days in primary
(If u feel it necessary) transfer to secondary for one week, cold crash last 2 days then keg
Leave it in the keg for a week at 20 psi, and pour 8-10 psi

See if that helps off flavors. I skimmed through this thread but i know pH changes the chemistry as well as boiling temp, but i have no advice on those issues.

Happy brewing!

 

[bigdongsr94]

I agree. 3 brews and questioning water seems a bit too quick possibly without having a good handle on what I'm doing. From the readers POV your right about that. But I'm going to go with it. Use that as my next step. I fail to see how my temp reading were that far off during mash to get a high level for releasing tannins. Does anyone know how much of a role iron or rust in the water plays a part? I need to be working now or else I would search more? Due to the part of the basement I have been using or brewing, I may have more iron or rust in my water.

 

[Sixpak]

Has anyone addressed the water temperatures? High temp is the single largest culprit for releasing tannins. What are your temps looking like?

Water is the single most important ingredient in beer. It is without a doubt that largest part of your beer. It's usually not too much of an issue because it's fairly easy to get decent water. PH in the 5.4 area makes great beer and does not require a tablet. If you really think your water might be an issue, then I recommend you get 5 gallons of mineral water, but not distilled. It's the easiest (and cheap) way to see if water is the issue.

You can not extract tannins by squeezing a bag with your hands. It requires far more strength than the vast majority of the human population. Unless you're a major weight lifter and do it for competitions. Then you might be able to squeeze a tannin out. Otherwise don't worry about it.

Make sure the lid stays off during the boil. (already mentioned) and make sure you cool the wort as quickly as possible when the boil is over. Perfectly acceptable to put a lid back on during this phase.

Make sure your equipment is clean!

Have fun, don't worry about it, somebody will figure this out.

I type way to slow... 3 Sheets brought up really good points about the length of time in fermentation. I personally go three weeks minimum in primary although experience and fine tuning will lower that number based on the beer.

 

[Parkinson1963]

So I read the DELCO water report. I would definitely carbon filter the water before brewing. They apparently use Chloramine as a disinfectant, unfortunately this is not removed by Campden tablets. A simple carbon filter from Homo depot, see link, will remove these nasty chemicals.
GE | Carbon household sediment filter | Home Depot Canada

Please Note: These filters will easily thread onto a normal garden hose male end, so no need for a fancy system.

 

[Shooter]

They apparently use Chloramine as a disinfectant, unfortunately this is not removed by Campden tablets.

Since when?!?!?!

 

[bigdongsr94]

So campden does or doesn't pull it out? Also just to inform 3 sheets, this primary was 2 weeks with no secondary time. Reading the original post of the recipe centennial blonde told me that this beer was that quick. I typically have some secondary time but did not in this last brew.

 

[Shooter]

I use Campden tablets to remove chloramine. They will also remove chlorine, but chlorine can also be boiled out of the water prior to use. Chloramine will not boil out.

 

[3sheetsEMJ]

Yeah 2 weeks should be fine, as there isnt much activity after day 14 on a brew like this. I just want to rule out any of the normal suspects. Its more likely to do with temp or pH, could even be from the yeast strain itself.

And I agree with many of you, i have squeezed the bag on brews that have turned out great... But i still dont squeeze just in case! haha

 

[bigdongsr94]

Ok so I have some results from a $10 water test kit.
pH around 7
Total alkalinity 120
Chlorine 0? Maybe they don't treat with ch
Hardness 200
Iron .1ppm
Copper 0 or very low
Nitrate/nitrite both very low 0

So I do not think that was anything out of the ordinary.

 

[mikeysab]

What brand kit did you use that tested for all that?

 

[bigdongsr94]

It was at home depot. I also had to stop at Mejier and it had the same brand.

 

[borden]

So campden does or doesn't pull it out?

Everything I have read to date has said that campden tablets do remove chloramine. Except the one random post in this thread. Use 1/4 tablet to 5 gallons, but the consensus seems to be that adding more isn't a problem, if you have trouble working with the powder.

 

[McCuckerson]

I have only made three AG batches. First time when taking a sample from the fermentation bucket I noticed an "off" smell. I would describe it as smelling of corn. So i did a little research and thought i had DMS issues due to not boiling hard enough. I really did not boil hard enough. Changes to my system and my stupidity actually allowed me to do the next batch and not boil hard again. I had an issue and only one heater was working so it was a small boil again. Third time was a good rolling boil. Corn smell was believed to be gone but the beer is now in keg and still has a corn smell. The smell isnt as bad as the first two batches but it tastse bad as well. I have only done a few extract brews but they turned out pretty well.

Recipe: It is known as the Centennial Blonde I think. Many have brewed.
Slightly moded. 8 lbs 2row, .5 lbs Crystal 10, .5 lbs vienna, .5 carapils. Hops are 2 - .25 oz Centennial additions and 2 - .25 Cascade additions. 60 Min Mash and 60 Min boil. Irish added at 15 min.

System: 8 gal alum pot. 2 - 1500 Watt heating elements. BIAB. Sparged on one batch others simply squeezed. OG and FG were good on all batches. Added a little extract on one batch. My system is too small to start mash with full volume so i add a gallon for full volume after mash. True BIAB is full volume no sparge, i do not feel that my sparging and volumes are a problem. Cooling is done promptly using a 20ft copper coil and submerging the pot in ice.

I do not know my water pH. Maybe next batch is with bottled. I have no idea what has ruined three batches. This is an ale yet i still get a distinct corn smell. The taste is just very bitter and not good. I also have a stainless 42 qt stainelss pot but have not yet done my electric conversion. Thanks. Donnie

Please provide the fermentation schedule. I consider water treatment as a tweek not an overhaul. This could be diacetyl.

 

[bigdongsr94]

This brew was simply 2 weeks in a primary. My boil was good and about 70 min total. Lid off. Cooling was very rapid as well. Tho I could have gone 90 min boil, I did this batch thinking it was DMS and boiled hard and cooled quick. I do not think that is truly it any more. I still have it kegged. Its under pressure. I would say any smell has gone and really it is now just a very strong bitter taste. Different bitter than an IPA that would be good. I think this is the standard "astringent" or whatever bitter. PH seems okay but I still have little info. The county report does not show what is needed. I am going to check my temp readings again at mash, just water. Not sure when I will get to that tho.
Donnie