Thinking about going BIAB. Anyone one with regrets? Tips?

[SoCal-Doug]

If you have the money (or fabrication skills and equipment) and space, stick with a 3 vessel HERMS system. If you have a 30 or 50 amp electric service, definitely go electric. In the long run you will most likely be happier. If space, skills and/or cash is limited, there is nothing "wrong" with a BIAB setup. Actually, there's nothing "wrong" with extract brewing on the kitchen stove either. Each setup has its gains and limitations. I've started friends on all types of setups based on what they can afford and what their goals are.

 

[GoeHaarden]

If you have the money (or fabrication skills and equipment) and space, stick with a 3 vessel HERMS system. If you have a 30 or 50 amp electric service, definitely go electric. In the long run you will most likely be happier. If space, skills and/or cash is limited, there is nothing "wrong" with a BIAB setup. Actually, there's nothing "wrong" with extract brewing on the kitchen stove either. Each setup has its gains and limitations. I've started friends on all types of setups based on what they can afford and what their goals are.

The point is simplification of brew day. After about 5 years of all grain I have started to realize that mashing is not complicated. So why do we make it so with many vessels and pumps? I mean think about it. The goal is starch conversion, and my cooler beer is just as good as my RIMS beer. With LESS headache. I'm not trying to sell it so consistency in reproducing the same beer doesn't matter to me and a few degree temp drop in mash does NOTHING to overall flavor. This is my own experience talking so you'd be hard pressed to convince me otherwise...

Unless you can push 1 button and your system spits out beer, then I wouldn't call it automated. To me automation is a process of eliminating manual steps. BIAB accomplishes this on many fronts. BIAB = One heat source, one kettle, one bag = beer. It makes logical sense and I wish I would've realized this many years ago.

 

[GoeHaarden]

Fwiw, after a few years with a basket I just started using a bag again.

That's good to know. I'm just waiting on my grain to get here to try this new process

Take a look at my ghetto setup

Man, the spousal unit would throw a coniption fit if I tried this. Lol. I like the minimalist take tho...

Full size bag, full volume mash, stir, done

What have been doing all these years!? Lol.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

A BIAB system makes perfectly good beer. Cheaper. Saves some space. The only drawbacks for me that come to mind are (1) efficiency (2) repeatability when scaling up or down and (3) lifting the bag out. If you can personally mitigate or accept those things, by all means go with BIAB.

There's really no "automation" in most of the larger systems. But they are not any more complicated. More expensive initially, sure. More time to sparge, absolutely (I don't worry about 30 more minutes, some people do). I have a 3V electric system and its quite honestly boring. I push a button and go mow my lawn, flip a valve and sparge, push another button and boil. No fiddling, brew indoors if I want, and dont worry about wind, fumes and flames. I'll never look back. Not everyone wants to go this route and thats totally ok.

On the other side of the spectrum, some people are going totally bonkers with electronics and automation. I think it's kind of silly, but if someone wants to nerd out and computerize absolutely everything, to each his own. Some of these home brewers have more bells and whistles than large scale commercial brewers.

It's not the system that makes good beer. It's the brewers knowledge, skills and how well they operate their system that makes the difference. The rig doesnt develop and modify the recipe. It doesn't choose the yeast, hops, water profile, or fermentation temp. I've seen many a kitchen stove extract brew take best of show because the brewer mastered himself and his process.

 

[GoeHaarden]

The only drawbacks for me that come to mind are (1) efficiency (2) repeatability when scaling up or down and (3) lifting the bag out.

Although I'm technically not a BIAB'er yet, I don't think these are accurate statements. Sure you have to lift the bag, but the off set is you only clean one kettle. I don't see many 3-vessel brewers reporting +90% mash efficacy, but I see a lot of BIABer reporting such. Honestly, repeatability probably isn't too hard if you know your system regardless of type. I just tend to brew something different or tweaked every time. So repeatability is irrelevant to me.

It's not the system that makes good beer. It's the brewers knowledge, skills and how well they operate their system that makes the difference

So true. And with my experience I've realized what matters and what doesn't. Im cutting out the uneccessary steps/equipment...

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Although I'm technically not a BIAB'er yet, I don't think these are accurate statements. Sure you have to lift the bag, but the off set is you only clean one kettle. I don't see many 3-vessel brewers reporting +90% mash efficacy, but I see a lot of BIABer reporting such. Honestly, repeatability probably isn't too hard if you know your system regardless of type. I just tend to brew something different or tweaked every time. So repeatability is irrelevant to me.

Cleaning: yup. I clean two (the HLT just gets drained out). Spray them with the hose and let them drain. Exhausting!

Efficiency: Research that a bit more. Your statement contains errors

Repeatability: Ok, great

Stop being offended. I keep saying "build what you want to serve your needs"

 

[sborz22]

I read up on all grain and got to the point where I was ready to take the plunge. The equipment cost kept me from doing so. All the while I was seeing this BIAB thing and at that time I thought it was ridiculous. I'm a fundamentalist in some ways and felt if I was going to brew that it would have to be all grain or nothing - big mistake.

Shortly thereafter, I started coming across quality used equipment and I ended up amassing the gear I needed to do all grain for pennies on the dollar. One of the batches of gear came with a BIAB bag and I started reading up on that. It clicked with me and I've been brewing BIAB since then with no regrets. I have the gear to do all grain and I have plans to but to me BIAB seems easier. Quicker cleanup and easier mashing and sparging if you decide to do that (of course I have nothing to compare that to)

I have done a number of 1.100+ beers with ease. I'd make sure to get a Wilser bag (or two) and pulley from his site. Sells them as a package deal. Stainless basket would work too. I brew between 2.5 gallon test batches up to 6 gallons with no problem. Man it's great and I don't think you'll be disappointed.

Out of curiosity, what part of the process are you skeptical about?

Biab is still “all grain” because ya know, ya still use...all grain. Mashing is the change that separates extract v all grain not the vessels.

 

[GoeHaarden]

Cleaning: yup. I clean two (the HLT just gets drained out). Spray them with the hose and let them drain. Exhausting!

Efficiency: Research that a bit more. Your statement contains errors

Repeatability: Ok, great

Stop being offended. I keep saying "build what you want to serve your needs"

Hahaha. Not sure what you think is offensive, and I appreciate your input. I don't get bent out of shape when someone has a narrow minded opinion on the internet. I was simply replying to your "drawbacks" to BIAB and I'm not even a BIABer officially. And I'm curious what errors my efficacy statement contains.

Regardless, just RDWAHAHB bro...

 

[z-bob]

I used paint strainer bags from Home Depot until I got a larger kettle and they didn't fit well enough (was stretched too tight at the top and they'd tear after a use or two.) The Wilser bag works better, but not that much better than the cheap paint bag if the paint bag fits your kettle. So you can try BIAB with almost no investment and see how you like it.

 

[pretzelb]

Although I'm technically not a BIAB'er yet, I don't think these are accurate statements. Sure you have to lift the bag, but the off set is you only clean one kettle. I don't see many 3-vessel brewers reporting +90% mash efficacy, but I see a lot of BIABer reporting such. Honestly, repeatability probably isn't too hard if you know your system regardless of type. I just tend to brew something different or tweaked every time. So repeatability is irrelevant to me.



So true. And with my experience I've realized what matters and what doesn't. Im cutting out the uneccessary steps/equipment...

The statements you reference appear accurate to me and I've done biab. They aren't all encompassing but I don't think your rebuttal is on point.

The lifting off the bag is a huge deal for biab. If you think cleaning 3 vessels is equivalent then you aren't aware of why pulleys are purchased or about the dangers of dropping something into a kettle of hot liquid.

Mash efficiency is an issue. The problem is our community can't agree how to measure it.

Repeatability is something that should not be affected by what you brew. It can be affected by the size of the brew like 5g to 10g. But if you think you can't repeat your numbers when you just switch beer styles you are really missing the point.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

 

[ong]

I never get the “you have to lift the bag” thing. Even with three vessel, don’t you have to lug your mash tun over to the compost?

Lifting the bag (which is at most maybe 50 lbs) never seemed that onerous to me; what I hated, and quickly realized was a bad idea, was lugging eight gallons of boiling wort around.

I’ve done 130 or so batches BIAB — decoction mashes, kettle sours, > 1.110 barleywines — pretty much anything you could do in a 3 vessel setup. I don’t see any downside to the process.

 

[pretzelb]

I never get the “you have to lift the bag” thing. Even with three vessel, don’t you have to lug your mash tun over to the compost?

Lifting the bag (which is at most maybe 50 lbs) never seemed that onerous to me; what I hated, and quickly realized was a bad idea, was lugging eight gallons of boiling wort around.

I’ve done 130 or so batches BIAB — decoction mashes, kettle sours, > 1.110 barleywines — pretty much anything you could do in a 3 vessel setup. I don’t see any downside to the process.

A 3v system will have more to clean but you can brace a kettle against your body when lifting and they are usually dry and cool. The lift the bag thing typically is a good warning to those not familiar with having to keep a bag of wet hot grains at arms length while hovering over a working kettle.

 

[z-bob]

I never get the “you have to lift the bag” thing. Even with three vessel, don’t you have to lug your mash tun over to the compost?

Lifting the bag (which is at most maybe 50 lbs) never seemed that onerous to me; what I hated, and quickly realized was a bad idea, was lugging eight gallons of boiling wort around.

I’ve done 130 or so batches BIAB — decoction mashes, kettle sours, > 1.110 barleywines — pretty much anything you could do in a 3 vessel setup. I don’t see any downside to the process.

My electric kettle (made from a 5 gallon bucket) is in the basement because I can't plug it in in the kitchen, and I brew upstairs. A big part of the evolution of my process comes from that. I can bring 3 gallons of water to a full boil in the utility room without having to watch it too closely. Then carrying 3 gallons of boiling water upstairs seems safer than a full bucket of hot water. I pour the 3 gallons of boiling water in the kettle and add 1 gallon of cold water, and the temperature settles out just right.

The next thing I need to optimize is chilling the wort when I brew in the kitchen instead of out on the deck. Probably just need to get longer hoses for the immersion chiller so I don't have to move the kettle from the stove to the sink...

 

[Jayjay1976]

Someone has probably already said this, but skip the disposable paint strainers and start off right with a high-quality, fine mesh reusable bag from @wilserbrewer
It's hard to overstate the improvement this will make in your BIAB experience. Also consider ordering the bag hoist setup he sells, it takes all the physical exertion out of pulling the heavy grain bag from the kettle.

 

[LittleRiver]

...If space, skills and/or cash is limited, there is nothing "wrong" with a BIAB setup...

Regarding space, I have a 60'x80' shop building where I brew, so space is not an issue. Regarding skills, I'm an industrial/mechanical designer well versed in designing/fabricating in most any material. Regarding cash, I'm not rich but I have the money to buy any type of system.

I thoroughly researched all the options and very consciously chose to go with simple single vessel BIAB rig. I have yet to find a reason to regret that decision.

You are correct that there is nothing wrong with BIAB. But your comments make it clear that you have the mistaken belief (as do many brewers) that other systems are somehow inherently "better", or that they would be an "upgrade" from BIAB. That belief is far from true. I would consider unnecessary complexity to be a downgrade from my elegantly simple and effective BIAB rig.

...drawbacks for me that come to mind are (1) efficiency (2) repeatability when scaling up or down and (3) lifting the bag out....

I don't sparge, squeeze, or recirculate and I get low to mid 80's efficiency. If I want more alcohol content I always have the option of sparging, but since I can hit or exceed recipe targets without a sparge I normally just don't bother with it.

I don't buy the claim that repeatability and scalability is a drawback of BIAB. My repeatability is very good. On my last brew my mash temp stayed within 1 degree of target for a full 60 minute mash, using only an old sleeping bag to insulate the kettle. I'm not guessing about the temp, I use a Thermoworks remote probe thermometer so I can see the temp within the kettle without removing the insulation.

Lifting the bag is not an issue. Maybe it is if you are trying to do a stovetop 10gal batch, alone, without an overhead lift point -- but the problem there is poor planning, not the BIAB process.

I have an overhead lift point for hoisting the bag, which I use with a simple ratcheting pulley setup that gives me a 2:1 mechanical advantage. I can easily lift the bag with one hand. The ratcheting pulley removes the risk of it falling back into the kettle.

I let gravity drain the bag over the kettle during the boil. After it's drained it is light and easy to handle. I grab the top of the bag, the part that is not wet and sticky, release the ratchet pulley, and drop the bag into a bucket for disposal.

My brew days are hassle free and enjoyable. My total brew time averages about 3:45. That includes everything, from beginning to fill the kettle to everything cleaned and put away. That includes no prior preparation, everything is done on brew day, and I do a full hour mash and a full hour boil.

The brewing is fun. The beer tastes great. The chances of me having a stuck sparge, controller problem, pump issue, etc, is zero. I have no desire to downgrade to a more complicated system.

 

[NewJersey]

Well said, little river! I'm with ya!
I love seeing people's insane 3V brew rooms with pipes, rims/herms/, huge panels, etc but i have no desire to own or brew on that myself.
I think i went 3 vessel at first because of the idea that BIAB somehow isn't real all grain brewing. I see now how wrong I was.
It should just be called full volume mash brewing or something to remove the stigma.
I have no idea why anyone would wanna mess with coolers, flames, or a mess of hoses.
Cheers

 

[z-bob]

Well said, little river! I'm with ya!
I love seeing people's insane 3V brew rooms with pipes, rims/herms/, huge panels, etc but i have no desire to own or brew on that myself.
I think i went 3 vessel at first because of the idea that BIAB somehow isn't real all grain brewing. I see now how wrong I was.
It should just be called full volume mash brewing or something to remove the stigma.
I have no idea why anyone would wanna mess with coolers, flames, or a mess of hoses.
Cheers

Some people just like messing with that stuff. More power to 'em. I enjoy seeing what they come up with (as I think you do) If I were doing larger batches than 4 or 5 gallons, I would probably go to some kind of 3V system because I don't have the hoists and stuff to deal with large heavy grain bags. But I can handle 10 pounds of grain just fine with what I have, and there's a lot you can do with 8 to 10 pounds of grain. Most of my recipes are right at 8 pounds.

 

[GoeHaarden]

Messing with the corona mill. How does this crush look? Can you go too fine?

 

[wilserbrewer]

That looks good, I think mine is a lil bit coarser, but that will certainly work.

 

[NeoBrew]

You are correct that there is nothing wrong with BIAB. But your comments make it clear that you have the mistaken belief (as do many brewers) that other systems are somehow inherently "better", or that they would be an "upgrade" from BIAB. That belief is far from true. I would consider unnecessary complexity to be a downgrade from my elegantly simple and effective BIAB rig.

I went on a little journey of learning that lead me from stovetop extract, to BIAB, and then on to 3 vessel brewing. Mind you, I am one of those people who finds the tinkering and engineering to be a big draw to the brewing process.

After getting to indoor brewing with 3 vessels, a RIMS tube, CraftBeerPi controller, and a pump, I do think I would have been smarter to stick with BIAB.

I'm not going back any time soon. I have all the equipment, and my indoor spot is less conducive to lifting the bag. Most of all I think I still have a lot to learn with my current setup. I can definitely see that some day I could get fed up with the complexity and go back to BIAB.

 

[GoeHaarden]

That looks good, I think mine is a lil bit coarser, but that will certainly work.

Cool. Thanks. I think I'm just going to build an IPA recipe assuming 80% efficiency targeting 1.055 so if it goes either way I'll be okay with it.

 

[balrog]

@GoeHaarden - your crush looks like mine. I wish I could get finer when I do wheat (smaller grain) because my overall (final, brew house) eff goes down when I brew a recipe with 30-50% wheat.

Regarding repeatability discussion: when I brew the same recipe (grains, hops), and don't screw up the brewday process, yeast starter build, ferment temp schedule, I get the same beer within my ability to determine "sameness".

 

[z-bob]

Messing with the corona mill. How does this crush look? Can you go too fine?
View attachment 595684

That should work just fine. You will get some flour in your wort but don't worry about it, that settles out in the fermenter. My grind is a little courser than yours but still has some flour, and I hit or exceed my OG numbers for beers up to about 1.060 if I plug 75% in the recipe calculator. My efficiency drops off rapidly when I go above 1.070 but I think I could get most of it back with practice.

 

[GoeHaarden]

@GoeHaarden - your crush looks like mine. I wish I could get finer when I do wheat (smaller grain) because my overall (final, brew house) eff goes down when I brew a recipe with 30-50% wheat.

Well that's easy! I actually hate wheats and the alike...

 

[GoeHaarden]

That should work just fine. You will get some flour in your wort but don't worry about it, that settles out in the fermenter. My grind is a little courser than yours but still has some flour...

Which leads me to my next question...

How many of you just dump the whole kettle into the fermentor?

I usually whirlpool to make a decent hop/break cone in the kettle, losing probably around a quart. I think I may just dump the whole thing into the fermentor to further minimize loss and see if it even matters. Again, my quest to eliminate homebrew misconceptions in my process...

 

[z-bob]

I filter out the hops (put them in a hop sock when I add them, which I squeeze out later) and dump everything else in the fermenter.

Last time instead of doing that I added the hops directly to the kettle, then poured the wort thru a paint strainer bag to remove the hops and some of the break material. Don't know yet if that worked better but I think it might. Either way, I don't leave any wort behind. I like the whirlpool cone idea but can never get it to work with my kettle so I gave up on it.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Which leads me to my next question...

How many of you just dump the whole kettle into the fermentor?

I usually whirlpool to make a decent hop/break cone in the kettle, losing probably around a quart. I think I may just dump the whole thing into the fermentor to further minimize loss and see if it even matters. Again, my quest to eliminate homebrew misconceptions in my process...

My guess is that you will be perplexed at the amount of break material or proteins that result with BIAB

Eliminating them will be futile unless you want to scrap 1/3 to half the kettle, so fermenting the whole kettle and letting gravity and time sort it out is the easiest solution.

Another option is to let the wort settle for an extended period, say 12 hours post boil and then draining...but that’s an extra step for questionable benefit.

Did I mention more break w/ BIAB?
Rdwhahb

 

[GoeHaarden]

Did I mention more break w/ BIAB?

Lol. Thanks. Good to know and you probably saved another "does this look right?" thread from being started...

 

[RM-MN]

Which leads me to my next question...

How many of you just dump the whole kettle into the fermentor?

I usually whirlpool to make a decent hop/break cone in the kettle, losing probably around a quart. I think I may just dump the whole thing into the fermentor to further minimize loss and see if it even matters. Again, my quest to eliminate homebrew misconceptions in my process...

I'm primarily a dumper but when I get to the last of the wort that turns out to be just green glop I may stop pouring. At that point I may have a cup of green glop that doesn't make it to the fermenter. I don't feel that I'm losing much potential beer that way and I know that no matter if it does get to the fermenter it will settle out.