Therminator weigh in

[discgolfin]

I just wanted to ad my opinion for others to see. I have used every type of chiller up to this point. Had great success with counter flow but as with others how clean and sterile is it really? I had the money so plate chiller time. My system: 10 gallon batches in Brutus set up with a march pump..I have a ss mesh screen in bottom of keggle..works good forn most hop pellets but not all.. Made a barleywine which had 6 ounces of pellet hops right into keg..

whirlpool

Pump..full open valves from boiling temp into fermentor at 63...hose water around 55..

so this is a one time eval but worked freakin great...Did hop particles get inside...sure same as with counter flow chiller....What I like is the ability to soak in oxy..boil..flush and bake if I had to..I never trusted my cleaning process in the counter flow..Will it be sterile at all times sure..I ran boiling wort through it the same as I did the cf chiller...I plan to go back to mostly whole hops so that should help with stuff getting inside it..

My cf chiller usually took about 20 minutes to cool 10 gallons..this took about 7 minutes.

Jay

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Therminator RAWKS.

 

[Cliff897]

I am a big fan of dissassembly and cleaning.

The Therminator uses what is arguably the most advanced technology in heat exchangers available. Rippled plates in a plate chiller offer high performance. The only thing about the therminator is that you can't take it apart.

This design finds application in non-food, non-pharma' applications such as construction HVAC: http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/heat...rs/mischeatexchangers/heatexchangerbuyage.asp

and Condensers, Evaporators, Subcoolers, Oil coolers etc.
http://www.muel.com/ProductDivisions/Heat_Transfer_Products/BrazedPlateHeatExchangers.cfm



The large stretched out skinny seals in the sanitary plate style heat exchanger are the one down side to them. Therminaotor gets around this by brazing the plates together (a disallowed practice for food and pharma' apps). This means you can't take them apart and clean 'em, and in a modern process plant that would not be acceptable for a food or pharmaceutical or other applications where clean is king.
http://www.muel.com/ProductDivisions/Heat_Transfer_Products/SanitaryHeatExchangers.cfm
There's a lot of information on their site they do both sanitary and the other type flat plate heat exchangers.


I'm planning on a build of my own that will use the older well proven tube approach. It'll be built to be disassembled for cleaning and have one face made from polycarbonate for visuals. I haven't settled on whether I want to use copper, aluminum, or SST for the tubes. The tubes, in my design, will carry the coolant.

Here are some really good images and information about plate type heat exchangers.
http://www.ittstandard.com/Tools/Portfolio/Upload/Project4/Docs/ITT104_75_Plateflow_Heat_Exch.pdf

 

[discgolfin]

wow great info..I understand for commercial and industry to have to prove it is clean by breaking it down..but overkill for a home brewer. The thing is as sanitary and clean as needed for brewing beer..which has alc and hops to preserve the packaged liquid..Can I disasemble my ball locks or hoses..or kegs to insure a visual inspection? no..but after a oxy soak..flush..boil in water a running 210 degree wort..I think the darn thing is sterile...FDA might not approve..but if you keep on your cleaning habits..and I read some bake in oven to turn any material into dust I cant be hapier with the future for brewing with this guy..

Jay

 

[remilard]

wow great info..I understand for commercial and industry to have to prove it is clean by breaking it down..but overkill for a home brewer. The thing is as sanitary and clean as needed for brewing beer..which has alc and hops to preserve the packaged liquid..Can I disasemble my ball locks or hoses..or kegs to insure a visual inspection? no..but after a oxy soak..flush..boil in water a running 210 degree wort..I think the darn thing is sterile...FDA might not approve..but if you keep on your cleaning habits..and I read some bake in ocen to turn and material into dust I cant be hapier with the future for brewing with this guy..

Jay

You can't disassemble your kegs?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I clean mine with a Nitric/Phosphoric blend in a CIP set-up along with my brewery. But, I still take great measure to ensure as little debris gets in as I can possibly block.

 

[Cliff897]

Yah, there is no reason you can't keep a SST brazed heat exchanger clean with the proper procedure.
There are plenty of options such as keeping it full of Star San, or mix an ounce of chlorox, 5-gallons of water, and an ounce of vinegar and leave it to soak in that.
And so long as there are no polymers in it you can bake it off at 250 F for an hour to really be sure.

In plate heat exchangers the alternative is money and effort and replacing the seals often. A sanitary chiller will not be a mere piffling paltry few hundred dollars.

I am not the most reliable of persons when it comes to procedure. I get distracted and what all and then end up having to do stuff later.
So for me, and my personality, I really do want to be able to open a a heat exchanger up and visually inspect and physically clean it.

In my little hobby shop I can cut aluminum and copper plate up to 3/4" thick and up to 7-feet long with some precision (+/- 0.005") and I can drill and tap about as accurately. So I'm attracted to jig plate alum' as the material of choice. The idea of a poly carbonate window is utterly irresistible. Poly Carb is such a wonderful material. It's tough, works easily, does not take machining stress like acrylic does and you can see through it.


Here's a question for the Brazed plate heat exchanger users:
What do you do about ensuring that no hop or other material clogs it up in mid flow?

That's an issue I'm thinking through in my tube style build. How close should I place the tubes to each other? I had 'em spaced ( on paper) so there was a gap of 0.0625" between the tubes. I'm thinking I'll open that up to 0.125" you know, just in case.
It'll mean a few more tubes and slightly larger over all body. But~ ~ ~

I've had hop bags open up in the boil. Loose hops in the trub made racking the wort off to the carboy interesting. I can't imagine that a burst hop bag would be a non issue when running it through an inline brazed chiller. Do you use screens?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

That's an issue I'm thinking through in my tube style build. How close should I place the tubes to each other? I had 'em spaced ( on paper) so there was a gap of 0.0625" between the tubes. I'm thinking I'll open that up to 0.125" you know, just in case.
It'll mean a few more tubes and slightly larger over all body. But~ ~ ~

I've had hop bags open up in the boil. Loose hops in the trub made racking the wort off to the carboy interesting. I can't imagine that a burst hop bag would be a non issue when running it through an inline brazed chiller. Do you use screens?

This has been an issue for me as well. At first it was the hop stopper. PITA to clean. Then it was the paint strainer hop bag. Useless for break filtering.

Now I have switched to using a rice hull filled grant for pre-filtering. First run was troublesome in that I failed to consider a way to hold the hulls in place. In my next run I'll try a cheap steamer basket set atop the rice hulls which should do nicely to keep the huls from floating and keep the running from boring a hole down the center of teh filter bed.

 

[Cliff897]

How do you use rice hulls as a filter medium?
I can see that a bed of them would work do you have a vessel just for that as an inline sort of filter in a way similar to how a hop back is set up?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

It is a hop back. Loaded with rice hulls. And a secondary screen to hold them in place.

Given it's location it should do nicely to filter break and pellets thus negating any need for bags in the kettle.

 

[Cliff897]

It is a hop back. Loaded with rice hulls. And a secondary screen to hold them in place.

Sounds like a good rig. I use sheer nylons that have been boiled in vinegar once to get the dye and sent of plastic off them.
They are cheap enough that I don't much care how long they last but I get about 5 - 10 boils out of a set. The only down side is their size.
You can't jam more than one ounce in an 8" length or when it expands in the boil the hops swell and tend to block free flow of liquid.
Maybe I should buy a super-extra-big-momma-fatty size. Come to think of it this is the first I've thought of size. My missus prolly buys her size which is petite. Follow the Blue Light in K-mart

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Or, try the paint strainer bags from big box hardware made for 5 gallon buckets. they work great for hop sacks with a PVC and all thread mount. Not so good for filtering break through them.

 

[discgolfin]

You can't disassemble your kegs?

I can I just cant see how clean the pick up tube is inside it...I like the rice hulls Idea. My hop Stopper works well..I just hose it off and throw it in the dish washer..Works good..but some times a PITA to clean.

Jay

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I can I just cant see how clean the pick up tube is inside it...I like the rice hulls Idea. My hop Stopper works well..I just hose it off and throw it in the dish washer..Works good..but some times a PITA to clean.

Jay

There is a brush for that. Works on racking canes too.

Also makes for a nice way to ensure the inner walls are throughly wetted with sanitizer.

 

[Moby]

It is a hop back. Loaded with rice hulls. And a secondary screen to hold them in place.

Given it's location it should do nicely to filter break and pellets thus negating any need for bags in the kettle.

How much rice do you use? Do you re-use it or is it a one-time-use-throw-out-and-replace kind of thing?

I think it's a GREAT idea and I'm trying to figure out how to make it work for MY setup! :rockin:

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

How much rice do you use? Do you re-use it or is it a one-time-use-throw-out-and-replace kind of thing?

I think it's a GREAT idea and I'm trying to figure out how to make it work for MY setup! :rockin:

I have the B3 hopback which prolly holds 2 quarts. I use two handfuls of rice hulls or about a half to 1 pound to fill the HB 1/3. I do not re-use the hulls tho', if rinsed and dried well you prolly could. I bought a 55 pound sack for $45 so I don't see the need to bother with that. I just throw them in the compost with the spent grains from brewday.

I am hoping the second run of this with the steamer basket as a hold down will produce better results than the first run. The "theory" is sound but the first run implementation surprised me in a couple ways as I already mentioned.

 

[Moby]

Well, I am excited to hear back on the next attempt. I think the basket idea is a good one...will the basket float or is it heavy enough?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Well, I am excited to hear back on the next attempt. I think the basket idea is a good one...will the basket float or is it heavy enough?

Actually, I am more concerned it might compress the filter bed causing a reverse issue. But, at $6.00 it beats trying to make or buying a custom screen. They are pretty flimsy thin so, I doubt it'll be an issue. Just needed a cheap solution to keep the rice hulls from moving around.

 

[discgolfin]

I like the rice hulls hop back idea..Have you done both rice hulls and hops in combo? I have been happy with the ss mesh screen from mcmaster but it is a challange to clean. I plan to move to mostly whole hops to make this a much better system and to remove particles in my therminator. I do not mind more clean up after brewing if it makes the process better faster and easier..bottom line the therminator is the shiznit..

Jay