Therminator, Ice Water, Whirlpool... question

[The Pol]

Yes. There is a huge difference. That is what I was trying to say before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_heat

Basically, ice water remains at 32 degrees until all the ice is melted because all the energy is being spent within the solution to melt the ice not warm the water (not that simple but it gets the point across). Melting the ice takes a lot of energy and therefore gives you a lot of cooling potential. I would guess it would be enough cooling potential.

If I wasn't so slammed at work I would run the math for you. A pretty rudementary calc should get you a good idea if it will work.

Thanks BK, logically in my mind this seems reasonable. It takes A LOT to melt ice, not so much to heat water. If I can build a self contained cooling apparatus, I will be happy. Those Duda plate chillers look nice too... some are HUGE, they are half the price of the Blingman.

 

[beerthirty]

The duda plates are nice. I use the the large 30 plate model. Word of warning. Increase the size of your hopstopper. I used the same hopstopper. The last Begian I made I bagged my hops and didn't there would be any problem with the 1/2 OZ of finely ground orange peel tossed in at the end. After several clogs and back flushing(wasted wort) I finished cooling. Then it took 2 oven cleaning cycles to burn out the remaining orange peel from the plate.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I am not sure about that duda thing. Each plate provides 0.151 sq. ft. of cooling surface area for a total of 4.53 sq. ft. with the 30 plate.

I am not sure because Blichmann hasn't completed there new site, but I believe the Blichmann had around 6.5 sq. ft. of surface area.

To put it in perspective, the Duda has the same surface area as a 17' x 1/2" immersion chiller. Granted it has a higher efficiency (not by much if you whirlpool) but that isn't to much cooling power IMO. Assuming the Thermonator is 6.5 sq. feet that is a 25' equivelent immersion chiller. Again the efficiency plays out to some effect.

 

[The Pol]

Thanks BK... money isnt REALLY an option, but I dont want to get raped for a label.

 

[Sawdustguy]

The Blichmann claims to chill 10 gallons of wort in 5 minutes to 68*F using 58*F cooling water at 5 gpm.

This graph is used to predict the gallons per minute (gpm) of wort you'll be able to chill from boiling down to 68oF (ideal fermentation start temp) using water from your garden hose as the cooling media.

1) Measure the cooling water flow rate in your brewery using a bucket of known volume and a stop-watch (gal/min). Then measure the cooling water temperature using an accurate thermometer.

2) Choose either the blue (5.0 gpm), cyan (3.0 gpm), or green (2.0 gpm) line that best matches your cooling water flow rate. If your flow lies between these lines, it is acceptable to interpolate between them.

3) Go to the point on the Y axis labeled "Cooling Water Temp (F)" to your cooling water temperature measured in step (1).

4) Draw a horizontal line to intersect the cooling water flow rate line you selected previously (Blue, Cyan or Green) in step (2)

5) Draw a vertical line at the intersection point down to the X axis labeled "Wort Flow (gpm) and read the wort chill flow rate you'll get at your brewery!

Example: If you have 58F cooling water and 5 GPM of flow, draw a horizontal line (see dark line in graph above) at 58F over to the blue line. Draw a vertical line (see dark line in graph above) from the intersection point down to the X-axis and read 2.0 GPM.

http://www.blichmannengineering.com/therminator/therminator.html

 

[The Pol]

Yes, I have seen that chart...

Duda has a 20 plate chiller that is 11.25 x 4.56...

Isnt that like 7' of surface area? It is $149

They also have a 30 plate that is 12.4 x 2.8...

Isnt that like 7.21' of surface? It is $110

 

[beerthirty]

BK I think this is the plate in question. http://cgi.ebay.com/M-30-Plate-Braz...ash=item35a3e274f3&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262
This plate provides 7.2 sq ft of surface area if my calcs are right. I defer to you to figure out all the other tech jargon listed as most of it is above my head unless I'm comparing it to a similar tech sheet.

 

[Dog House Brew]

I too was wondering if Blingman is any better than a Duda plate. I also say several plates on ebay. 30 plate 4.5w x 12L for $179, but it has 1" nipples.

 

[The Pol]

Some guy left a review of the 4.5' Duda plate on thier site, said he cooled his wort to 80F from boiling in one pass.

Now increase the surface area by 60% and I think the $110 Duda plate that is 7.2' would do a helluva job.

 

[beerthirty]

It does. Just make sure you keep the crap out of it.

 

[The Pol]

It does. Just make sure you keep the crap out of it.

How do most do this? I already use SS mesh pads.

 

[jcdillin]

I bought 30x30 mesh screen from mcmaster and made a hop stopping cylinder, no pellet hops at all get through. I just used stainless lock wire to sew it all up.

I pump 10 gallons of wort through my therminator at full speed with just tap water and it gets to pitch temps.

 

[jcdillin]

Some more pics here

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f85/8-22-09-brew-day-pumpkin-ale-133537/

 

[The Pol]

I cannot use tap water, this must be self contianed.

 

[beerthirty]

I used to use the scrubbies. Now I bag the hops to keep most of them from the diptube and use a hop stopper modeled after Bobby_M's. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/diy-hop-filter-video-102697/
I tried the hopstopper by itself with 2.5 oz pellet and it really slowed down flow and left some wort in the kettle. Since combining the two, I have had great success. The 5G paint strainer bag allows plenty of flow through the bag, the hopstopper does a very good job of removing any hops that get out of the bag and keeps a large amount of break material out while still maintaining good flow. there is very little wort left in the kettle at the end.

Edit; I forgot that you use electric. Forget the bags. Instead build a ss bag 6-8" in diameter that extend out the top of the kettle. It wont interfere with the boil and you will still get good utilization.

 

[Lonnie Mac]

Well, here is the "idea"...

Utilize (2) march pumps
(1) Therminator
(1) 10 gallons of ICE water

During the boil I clean my MLT.
Refill MLT with water and (3) gallons of ICE

After boil is complete operate ONE pump to recirc boiling wort through THERMINATOR back to the kettle to help sanitize therminator.

To chill, run both pumps at full flow. One to recirc ice water from MLT to the chiller and back to the MLT. The other pump will recirc the wort through the Therminator to the kettle through a QD fitting on the side of the kettle that is attached to a length of LocLine on the INside of the BK.

The PID thermocouple in the BK would monitor temp.

Would this work? I am looking to spend some money is all, is this an effective way to spend money?

Not sure if I am reading this correctly Pol, but I have been doing exactly this for about 10 years. About 5 of that with the therminator. Guess you have never read anything about Brutus Ten! LOL

Just kidding my friend...

In my case, and I think in any case, ice alone will not knock the boil down from boiling temp to pitching temp unless you use a monstrous amount if ice. I have never ran any numbers but I can say that I still have to use hose water to get it down to around a hundred or so just so my 4-5 (7 lb) bags of ice will take it the rest of the way down to pitch temp. You want to see some ice melt fast, just recirculate boiling wort through it!

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Hmmm.... interesting Lonnie. So you need to use 4-5 seven pound bags of ice (i.e., 28-35 pounds) to bring 10g from 100 to pitching? That is way more than I would have guessed. Weird.

I have no problem with the duda chillers, I was just saying to besure you are getting the surface area you are looking for. Just becasue it has x-plates doesn't mean it is awesome, you need to know how big the plates are. You obviously know that, I was just making sure

 

[The Pol]

I still dont get it...

If it will cool 10 gallons from boiling to 68F with 58F water in 5 minutes...

I am cooling 5 gallons from boiling to 68F with what starts as 32F with 20 pounds of ice augmenting the cooling. You are telling me that in 5 minutes I will have NO ice and my water will exceed 58F?

I wish there were a way to calcualte this accurately before I spend $400 to do it

Well, what will a 5 gallon volume (25 pounds) of ice do when dropped into 5 gallons of boiling wort (water)?

I can at least test that.

 

[Bobby_M]

The biggest problem with recirculating the exhaust coolant back into the reservoir is that it takes a bit of time for the ice to cool it. You'll start out by pumping 32F water into the chiller, but within 2 minutes, you'll be pumping something like 70F as the ice tries to cool the incoming HOT water. The ice will melt pretty quickly.

What I'd recommend doing is filling the MLT with tap water first and run that out through the chiller and into buckets. Then chuck the ice in and add another batch of tap water. The water that comes out of the plate chiller in the first few minutes will be like 180F.

The idea is to remove most of the heat out of the system immediately. The closed loop thing screws that up.

Yes, a 3 gallon block of ice has a lot more cooling potential than 3 gallons of 33F water because it takes a lot of energy to freeze the water from 33.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I still dont get it...

If it will cool 10 gallons from boiling to 68F with 58F water in 5 minutes...

I am cooling 5 gallons from boiling to 68F with what starts as 32F with 20 pounds of ice augmenting the cooling. You are telling me that in 5 minutes I will have NO ice and my water will exceed 58F?

I wish there were a way to calcualte this accurately before I spend $400 to do it

There is.

Come on- there has to be some Mech Eng. out there bored ina cubicle. Help a brewer out!!!

I would run it for you Pol but I am slammed right now. Maybe later this week I could spare some time and figure it out.

 

[The Pol]

EDIT!!

I just looked it up, I am talking about adding 33 pounds of ice (solid block) to the 5 gallons of water. That is what I am proposing to use for my chilling meduim.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I must say, for $400, you could spend an extra $50 and install a hose bib in your garage, then you could use that and drain into your garage drain.

I still think the contained system is sexy. That was my initial plan to until I was shot down by naysayers... perhaps my pipedream lives???

 

[Bobby_M]

The physics problem would be stated "what would the resulting temp be if I combined 5 gallons of water at 212F with 5 gallons of water at 60F (guess) and 33 pounds of ice?". Of course, sugar water has a different density so it would skew the answer a bit but I would think you'd be close enough.

Of course, if you do this during the winter when you potentially have free access to ice (leaving a few buckets outside), it doesn't matter how many times you have to add ice.

 

[TeufelBrew]

I'm setting my system up to do a variant on this theme. However, I WILL be using the hose, even in the winter. Just keep the hose empty and run as needed for brewday then store in the garage, empty.

March pump will recirc wort through Schirron plate chiller using hose water. This will give me a nice whirlpool and keep the little break and trub in the middle. I use a large grain bag and small muslin bags (no more than one ounce per bag) for hops. Keeps the bulk of the debris out chiller and fermenter. Once the wort drops to ~120F, I'll kick in the 20lbs of ice and ~2G of water pumped with the undergravel fish tank pump.

I've found I can get 10.75G of wort to around 70F within 30min with constant swirling with my long handle spoon. I don't like standing and stirring my wort for 30min! So, I'm going to try the two chiller system and whirlpool the wort.

 

[Bobby_M]

Frankly, the advantage of plates/CFC external exchangers is the ability to just push the wort into your fermenter in one quick pass so I don't really see the advantage of a recirculate. You might say it's to chill the whole wort down quickly, but with icewater as the coolant, you can run the March full bore and drain 5 gallons within 5 minutes.

 

[arturo7]

Pol, you might want to check this build out before dropping all that cash.


Scroll down to post #5.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/shell-tube-heat-exchanger-122655/

Inexpensive, efficient, no need to worry about clogging it with hops.

 

[Lonnie Mac]

Frankly, the advantage of plates/CFC external exchangers is the ability to just push the wort into your fermenter in one quick pass so I don't really see the advantage of a recirculate. You might say it's to chill the whole wort down quickly, but with icewater as the coolant, you can run the March full bore and drain 5 gallons within 5 minutes.

Personally this is exactly why I do it. Not withstanding, my trub and cold break is left in the kettle and not in my fermenter.

In Texas, nothing comes out of the hose unless it's about 85 degrees!

 

[The Pol]

I must say, for $400, you could spend an extra $50 and install a hose bib in your garage, then you could use that and drain into your garage drain.

I still think the contained system is sexy. That was my initial plan to until I was shot down by naysayers... perhaps my pipedream lives???

No drain in garage...

Prefer it to be self contained

 

[Lil' Sparky]

Hmmm.... interesting Lonnie. So you need to use 4-5 seven pound bags of ice (i.e., 28-35 pounds) to bring 10g from 100 to pitching? That is way more than I would have guessed. Weird.

That's about what I use, too, and I first use tap water to chill the wort before it exchanges heat with the ice water.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

I am cooling 5 gallons from boiling to 68F with what starts as 32F with 20 pounds of ice augmenting the cooling. You are telling me that in 5 minutes I will have NO ice and my water will exceed 58F?

Yes, the HEX exhaust will melt that ice fast. Once it's gone, the entire cooling tank will heat up. I don't know how much "extra" cooling capacity the ice holds, but remember, it won't be 20 lbs after it chills 5 gals down to 32º - maybe only 1/3 or 1/2 of that.