There's Some Bad Info Going Around

[theNOOB]

So I have only one brew under my belt, definite beginner. I used liquid yeast pitched straight from the vial. Didn't even think to make a starter cause it was already hydrated. Can someone explain this concept to me? please

 

[PoppinCaps]

Short answer, depending on the manufacture date of the vial, you might have anywhere from 30-70 billion viable cells in there, for a needed 190 billion or so for a 5 gallon batch. It will make beer, but a starter will get you to better pitching rates.

 

[MrManifesto]

Do some research before posting, it is NOT necessary.

Threads like this make me sick.

Just because the majority believe something, that doesn't make it so.

Jamil Z seems to think it's necessary, as do most books I've read.

A producer of a product is in selling product, not making sure you've got the best beer possible. I'm not saying they're bad people, but it's business.

I'm posting from my phone so it's hard to site sources but google the maltose falcons and they research they've done.

 

[MrManifesto]

Especially since he's taking this from another thread where faulty information is being touted as gospel.

Lol...am I? I don't even know what thread you're talking about.

 

[theNOOB]

Thanks for the enlightenment

 

[Revvy]

I'm posting from my phone so it's hard to site sources but google the maltose falcons and they research they've done.

If you're talking about THIS, on first glance I think they're really only talking about liquid cultures. I only scanned it, but they keep talking about smack packs and tubes.

 

[MrManifesto]

If you're talking about THIS, on first glance I think they're really only talking about liquid cultures. I only scanned it, but they keep talking about smack packs and tubes.

Could be right, it's been a couple since I've read it. Thing is, though, yeast is yeast. Only difference between dry and liquid is that dry has been through a different process (that's pretty tough on them) to make them "dried". They're still the same beast, though and if we're agreeing that it's good to aerate liquid, why not dry? Someone smarter than me may very well know, I'm not trying to present myself as the end all, be all of homebrew but it just doesn't stand to reason with what I know now.

I acknowledge that's there's more to know and if someone can present some real, clear info, I'll change my mind.

 

[passedpawn]

Could be right, it's been a couple since I've read it. Thing is, though, yeast is yeast. Only difference between dry and liquid is that dry has been through a different process (that's pretty tough on them) to make them "dried". They're still the same beast, though and if we're agreeing that it's good to aerate liquid, why not dry? Someone smarter than me may very well know, I'm not trying to present myself as the end all, be all of homebrew but it just doesn't stand to reason with what I know now.

I acknowledge that's there's more to know and if someone can present some real, clear info, I'll change my mind.

Of course, it can become a thickly scientific topic quickly when you move from anecdote to proof. But I think Dr. Clayton Cone knows what he's talking about - this has been referred to a couple of times now. Here's a link and a quote from it. I'd suggest that if you like your beer, just keep doing what you are doing

"Yeast need a trace amount of oxygen in an anaerobic fermentation such as brewing to produce lipids in the cell wall. With out O2 the cell cannot metabolize the squalene to the next step which is a lipid. ... Lallemand packs the maximum amount of lipids into the cell wall that is possible during the aerobic production of the yeast at the factory. ... When you produce 3-5% alcohol beer this is no problem. It is when you produce higher alcohol beer or inoculate at a lower rate, that you need to add O2 to produce more yeast and for alcohol tolerance near the end of fermentation. You definitely need added O2 when you reuse the yeast for the next inoculum."​

Aeration and Starter Versus Wort | Danstar Premium Beer Yeasts - The Dry Yeast Advantage

 

[pabloj13]

Of course, it can become a thickly scientific topic quickly when you move from anecdote to proof. But I think Dr. Clayton Cone knows what he's talking about - this has been referred to a couple of times now. Here's a link and a quote from it. I'd suggest that if you like your beer, just keep doing what you are doing

"Yeast need a trace amount of oxygen in an anaerobic fermentation such as brewing to produce lipids in the cell wall. With out O2 the cell cannot metabolize the squalene to the next step which is a lipid. ... Lallemand packs the maximum amount of lipids into the cell wall that is possible during the aerobic production of the yeast at the factory. ... When you produce 3-5% alcohol beer this is no problem. It is when you produce higher alcohol beer or inoculate at a lower rate, that you need to add O2 to produce more yeast and for alcohol tolerance near the end of fermentation. You definitely need added O2 when you reuse the yeast for the next inoculum."​

Aeration and Starter Versus Wort | Danstar Premium Beer Yeasts - The Dry Yeast Advantage

Right, and who is making 3% beer here? I want them BANNED!

 

[sudsmcgee]

about not needing to aerate dry yeast. This is completely false info and I can just picture noobs taking this in and having a ton of stuck ferments. Let's nip this in the bud! Aerate, people!

Completely false? The only statement that's completely false is that you're a paid member who values this site enough to fork over some cash for a membership. :fro:

You CAN, but don't NEED to aerate when using dry yeast. I've done it both ways and it makes no difference that I can perceive.

 

[sudsmcgee]

And Fermentis has never had any of their yeasts recalled have they?
(I personally think Notty sucks.)

They should have recalled the recent bad lot of US-05 they put out. I know a few people whose beers stalled above 1.020 because of it. There is a thread about a bad lot here.

 

[sudsmcgee]

Just out of curiosity, why wouldn't a person aerate their wort? Just one extra little step to ensure (for me) a good faster fermentation.

The same reason why you wouldn't recite the national anthem every morning before you get out of bed...you don't have to. Sure you COULD do it, but WHY do it if it's not necessary.

I get why you might want to do it, but I've found it's only necessary with liquid yeasts personally.

 

[ClarnoBrewer]

These kind of debates bring up an interesting notion. Scientists have nailed down the multitude of reactions and processes and the components that are required, as well as the proper ratios for successful reactions.

Brewers have been making beer long before they had any idea of why it was working, using a slew of methods that, in hindsight, are contrary to some of the science.

The other factor is that there are many simultaneous reactions, so you may be trying to hit a sweet spot (like mash temps) to get the right balance, instead of trying to optimize one single reaction.

I oxygenate, make starters, and I've had some tremendous fermentation lately. I also rarely use dry yeast, but that's just because I prefer liquid.

So many ways to brew. That's the most fun part about the hobby.

 

[MrManifesto]

Completely false? The only statement that's completely false is that you're a paid member who values this site enough to fork over some cash for a membership. :fro:

You CAN, but don't NEED to aerate when using dry yeast. I've done it both ways and it makes no difference that I can perceive.

oh please, bud. my being a non paying member has nothing to do with my statements. stick to the topic.

 

[DannPM]

There are competing theories about yeast performance regarding areation from highly informed professionals who manufacture the stuff. Why is everyone arguing this? Let the yeast PhDs settle this before you become invested in either side...in the meantime humbly practice what you believe...

 

[johnnybrew]

I aerate my wort, wine and balloons and no one here can convince me to change!

 

[wildwest450]

I could care less if anyone aerates with dry yeast or not. I'm not wasting oxygen on it when it's expensive, and have NEVER had a suck fermentation (or high fg) with just rehydrating, including a lot of high gravity beers.

The problem I have is people preaching it as gospel, and telling new brewers it's absolutely why they have a stuck fermentation. That's garbage advice.

I also don't leave my beer in the fermenter for a month either, so there.

 

[MrManifesto]

i guess my question is still, if we advocate aerating with liquid yeast, but not with dry...why? they are both yeast. there's no "real" difference in the way that they work, so is aeration itself not necessary or is there some fundamental difference that i'm missing?

honest question.

 

[samc]

i guess my question is still, if we advocate aerating with liquid yeast, but not with dry...why? they are both yeast. there's no "real" difference in the way that they work, so is aeration itself not necessary or is there some fundamental difference that i'm missing?

honest question.

It's been posted in this thread as well as many other threads, I've even done so myself.

During its aerobic production, dry yeast accumulates sufficient amounts of unsaturated fatty acids and sterols to produce enough biomass in the first stage of fermentation.

Liquid yeast doesn't get this leg up on fermentation so it needs more Oxygen to accomplish this task.

 

[MrManifesto]

It's been posted in this thread as well as many other threads, I've even done so myself.

During its aerobic production, dry yeast accumulates sufficient amounts of unsaturated fatty acids and sterols to produce enough biomass in the first stage of fermentation.

Liquid yeast doesn't get this leg up on fermentation so it needs more Oxygen to accomplish this task.

but...how? what is the advantage that dry yeast has in this regard that liquid doesn't?

 

[damien]

Read the man's answer. The way the two different yeasts are produced Is completely different. Your question has already been answered and is becoming redundant.

 

[damien]

It's been posted in this thread as well as many other threads, I've even done so myself.

During its aerobic production, dry yeast accumulates sufficient amounts of unsaturated fatty acids and sterols to produce enough biomass in the first stage of fermentation.

Liquid yeast doesn't get this leg up on fermentation so it needs more Oxygen to accomplish this task.

Yeast need fatty acids and sterols to produce biomass for initial fermentation. Dry yeast have that already because of the production process includes plenty of O2. Liquid do not have the acids and sterols so they need O2 to make them in order to produce enough cells for initial fermentation.

 

[damien]

1+1=2, 0+1+1=2

 

[MrManifesto]

1+1=2, 0+1+1=2

save the attitude. i'm not stupid.

"the production process" isn't really an answer. i'm asking how that works.

if you know what that process entails, cool, i'm listening.

 

[emjay]

save the attitude. i'm not stupid.

"the production process" isn't really an answer. i'm asking how that works.

if you know what that process entails, cool, i'm listening.

Eaaaaasy, duke.

But uh, yeah, I agree with the overall idea of what you're saying (though not much more than that, heh). All explanations I've heard, in this thread and everywhere else, have been uncomfortably vague. Just what exactly is the difference in the "production process" of dry versus liquid yeast that is specifically responsible for the difference in the packaged sterol levels?

(And, just as an interesting observation: you can tell a lot about a person based on what they consider to be an acceptable explanation to questions like these.)

 

[Brew_Force]

save the attitude. i'm not stupid.

"the production process" isn't really an answer. i'm asking how that works.

if you know what that process entails, cool, i'm listening.

With dry yeast the manufacturer builds bubbles of happy yeast that are encased with nutrients and harvested out of an O2 rich environment, they have everything they need to get right on to fermenting. Liquid yeasts are "easier" to produce, as the production process is much more gentle, they simply put already dorment yeast in a stable, temperature controled environment. In that gentleness, there is a trade off, in that the yeast are put in a much more temporary stasis, devoid of nutrients and and oxygen. To get these liquid yeasts back to kicking ass, they need some help from the brewer that a dry, processed, "put in a perfect bubble" yeast balls do not need. Liquid yeasts need, because of their fragility, some more help; oxygen, starters, and careful handling are all much more necessary.

EDIT: also, that gentleness means that there can be many more strains of liquid yeast, compared to dry yeast, as not all yeasts can survive the manufacturing process involved in creating dry yeasts. Double edged sword.

DOUBLE EDIT: If you're really interested in the specifics of the process differences, you could email identical questions to fermentis and wyeast, and I'm sure you'd get some interesting results.

 

[emjay]

it certainly isn't to increase oxygen levels; it's solely for mixing of yeast/wort.

Um, that's a *gigantic* logical leap... that is nowhere near equivent to what Fermentis states, nor is it a reasonably safe inference.

 

[Brew_Force]

Um, that's a *gigantic* logical leap... that is nowhere near equivent to what Fermentis states, nor is it a reasonably safe inference.

Well, I for one can't wait to see the results. You could always pm me a draft to proof read

 

[thegerm]

yeast companies offer condescending instructions to homebrewers and correct instructions to pro brewers. they're all giving BS advice on processes and pitching rate.

believe wyeast and white labs that 1 vial or packet is sufficient for 6 gallons 1.060 wort. believe the dry yeast companies that rehydration isn't necessary. believe whoever you want that aeration or oxygenation isn't necessary. and the rest of us will continue to make better beer than you.

 

[wildwest450]

believe the dry yeast companies that rehydration isn't necessary. believe whoever you want that aeration or oxygenation isn't necessary. and the rest of us will continue to make better beer than you.

Which company says not to rehydrate?