The War on Drugs: They've Finally Arrested All the Kingpins...

[Pugilist]

OK, I am short on time here and have to go but I just saw this thread for the first time and felt a huge need to post the contrarian view. I lived in Falmouth for 20 years until I got divorced. My ex and two dtrs still live there. Both my dtrs went to Falmouth High. I'm pretty familiar with the story.

Personally, I'm thrilled to death that the local PD is being proactive and making an effort to clean up FHS. My kids are both really straight shooters, they didn't smoke, drink or do drugs of any sort while in HS. They are both in their 20's now and occasionally drink. They would regularly tell me about the stuff that was going on in that school while they went there. It was pretty much how I remembered HS, if you wanted it, you could get it.

If the local PD makes it harder to get, I'm ok with that. If a few punks get thier dicks slapped in the process, I'm ok with that. I'm not a virgin. I smoked a bale or two of weed in my youth. It's totally different when it's your kids. You might not get that yet. Someday you will. And when you do, you'll be calling up your local PD and telling the Chief that you are glad he's taking things seriously. Cause if it's easy to get a bag of grass in study hall, it's easy to get anything else. As a father, I all for making it really freakin' hard to get any of it in the local schools.

PTN

Very well put. Much different opionions from parents with children whom these drugs may affect. Some kids experiment as part of growing up and maturing and turn out fine. Some start on the path and dont end up well.

 

[Seabee John]

OK, I am short on time here and have to go but I just saw this thread for the first time and felt a huge need to post the contrarian view.
If the local PD makes it harder to get, I'm ok with that. If a few punks get thier dicks slapped in the process, I'm ok with that. As a father, I all for making it really freakin' hard to get any of it in the local schools.

PTN

Double +1 there!...

I don't want these folks to feel as though what they say doesn't matter, but I would like to hear the other side of the story. This whole thing has a nice "it's the Man keeping us down" ring to it.

I happen to know a few things when it comes to the war on drugs. For one, I have been part of the "real" war on drugs. I spent 5 months during 1994 on a DEA support mission in Colombia. (During the time I was there, Pablo Escobar, the drug kingpin was taken down)

Fact for you to research #1. Macroeconomics 101... Look at the supply & demand curve for the war on drugs. The demand curve for drugs is very steep. When monetary forces of the Reagan war on drugs were enacted, the demand curve shifted left, creating a higher amount of income for the producers (on a smaller crop). AKA: By slowing the supply of drugs, the price increased exponentially, resulting in a higher income for the suppliers.

The cops in this story actually had it right. If you reduce the demand instead of supply, you hurt the supplier. Two things do this, 1. Education (thus the D.A.R.E. program and other educational programs for very young kids) 2. Local enforcement. (hitting the schools and the school kids hard to make them think twice before they have ANYTHING to do with illegal drugs)

Fact for you to research #2. What is the economic impact of a drug free society? Even though some of you are solidly for the right to light up in privacy, I'd love to see your reaction to the data on a "drug legal" vs. a "drug illegal" society. If you look up the data (start w/ google) you will find that you will have more money in your pocket without pot in your schools than with.

But don't take my word for it... do the research!

 

[zoebisch01]

While I agree that I personally don't want to see kids doing drugs, I think the real issue is that their home lives are often not very good to begin with. Most teens take drugs to escape their problems, especially those at home. The problem isn't the drugs it's the people, imo. But what we have done is spiraled into a society that has neglected the value of family. Most cases of people that I know who grew up in a strong home never had a long term issue with drugs. And we can throw alcohol in there as well because it is a drug, not a narcotic but still a drug.

So we erroneously continue warring against something that is not the root cause, and therefore it's like fighting the air. (no offense to Seabee John on this as he did help in fighting evil) You remove one druglord and another comes in his place. It's like Castro's replacement waiting in the wings in Cuba. The problem is the demand, and the root of the demand. Imo, the war on drugs is being fought on the wrong front. Susie Q brought down Tommy at school, so next time the dealer will be more cautious.

 

[Thirdeye]

1)Newton's Laws..Got it
2)First, Second, Third Laws of thermodynamics...Easy
3)Maxwell's Equations...Check
3)Schrodinger's Equation...A little tricky, but I can work with it...most of the time
4)How alcohol is legal and weed isnt....BOGGLES MY EFFING MIND! Just can't wrap my tiny little p-brain around it. Someone please help!

That's all I have to say about the WOD.

 

[landhoney]

How do these bastards sleep at night? If there were any justice in this world, they would be the ones in cuffs.

I never thought I'd put someone's quote in my sig, but there she be!! That, in or out of context, is hilarious.

BTW, yes you are making a very good point I agree with.

 

[cubbies]

And we can throw alcohol in there as well because it is a drug, not a narcotic but still a drug.

How exactly is it not a narcotic. If alcohol is not a narcotic, then reefer surely is not.

And to the other posters. This has little to do with the war on drugs, it has little to do with "fixing the problem". It is the pointlessness of it all. Tons of money was spent in this sting in both real dollars and time. Then, on top of that, tons more money is going to be spent in the courts. What is our return on this money? What was accomplished?

Are hard, dangerous criminals getting of our streets and going to jail? No. Is anyone going to jail? Most likely not. Is the "drug problem" at this high school going to be fixed? Are these 9 kids arrested the only kids doing drugs at this school? We all know the answers people.

10's if not 100's of thousands of dollars were spent and nothing was accomplished. Zilch, nada. And this goes on in every city numerous times a year. Millions of dollars flushed down the drain. Maybe if we spent the same money on education, prevention and rehabilitation we could actually accomplish something.

 

[mr x]

For one, I have been part of the "real" war on drugs. I spent 5 months during 1994 on a DEA support mission in Colombia. (During the time I was there, Pablo Escobar, the drug kingpin was taken down)

But don't take my word for it... do the research!

Be careful about having people do the research. As I recall, in the 80s Pablo's coke was being funnelled into LA courtesy of the CIA to fund a war in Nicaragua. It was convenient at the time of course.

 

[wihophead]

How exactly is it not a narcotic. If alcohol is not a narcotic, then reefer surely is not.

You are correct...A true narcotic is actually a drug derived from opium but other drugs such as cocaine derivatives are sometimes grouped into the narcotic catagory and unfortunately sometimes marijuana is also.

 

[MikeFlynn74]

As I recall, in the 80s Pablo's coke was being funnelled into LA courtesy of the CIA to fund a war in Nicaragua. It was convenient at the time of course.

Just like they never did for the Afganis growing Opium, supporting the war against the Russians.

 

[Reverend JC]

While I agree that I personally don't want to see kids doing drugs, I think the real issue is that their home lives are often not very good to begin with. Most teens take drugs to escape their problems, especially those at home. The problem isn't the drugs it's the people, imo. But what we have done is spiraled into a society that has neglected the value of family. Most cases of people that I know who grew up in a strong home never had a long term issue with drugs. And we can throw alcohol in there as well because it is a drug, not a narcotic but still a drug.

So we erroneously continue warring against something that is not the root cause, and therefore it's like fighting the air. (no offense to Seabee John on this as he did help in fighting evil) You remove one druglord and another comes in his place. It's like Castro's replacement waiting in the wings in Cuba. The problem is the demand, and the root of the demand. Imo, the war on drugs is being fought on the wrong front. Susie Q brought down Tommy at school, so next time the dealer will be more cautious.

so the drugs should be legal cuz some kid got molested by a priest or something else bad happened in his life and he dosent know how to deal with it? While i agree the war should not be waged against the user i think you are way off base as to why teens get into drugs. I have friends that got into them because they were bored, they liked feeling high and to all of my knowlege they were never touched by their "uncle touches me funny".

 

[Ryanh1801]

Guess this sums up how I feel.

 

[rattler_mt]

Fact for you to research #2. What is the economic impact of a drug free society? Even though some of you are solidly for the right to light up in privacy, I'd love to see your reaction to the data on a "drug legal" vs. a "drug illegal" society. If you look up the data (start w/ google) you will find that you will have more money in your pocket without pot in your schools than with.

no offence intended...............but right now pot is illegal, demand and use are high........how is making it legal going to change anything..........the demand is still there, the use is still there, the hospital bills picked up on the taxpayers dime is still there.....only if its legal your not paying the DEA, State and local cops to search it out, arrest those who have it, pay the state to prosicute, pay the prisons to house those smoking dope...............i fully agree certain drugs such as meth and the like shouldnt be in the hads of adults let alone kids, but making the chit illegal and sending ppl to prison for it isnt doing jack chit to stop the use of it........

instead of paying to prosicute those who smoke a lil pot for personal use i would rather see the money spent in a no BS educating the affects of what exactly each drug does to the human body. the fact that X screws witht he brains ability to control the bodies temps and it can pretty much boil the brain in its own juices, that there is 20 times the tar in pot as cigarettes and you are highly likely to get lung cancer from smoking it, that meth is actually made from chemicals any sane person wouldnt allow to touch their bare skin, let alone smoke not to mention it is HIGHLY addictive.........i would rather the kids be educated properly so that they have the info to make the desision themselves not to do it...........the saying "drugs are bad because they are illegal" BS doesnt accomplish anything......any half way intellegent high schooler knows on the scale of things pot isnt any more harmful to the brain than alcohol.....the bad part comes that alcohol destroys the liver and pot screws with the lungs....but as far as perminant damage to the brain and body.......over indulging in pot is safer than over indulging in alcohol.............yah cant smoke enough pot to kill you but alcohol poisoning is easy enough to do...........

 

[mr x]

Guess this sums up how I feel.

But then how do you reconcile yourself with posts 67 and 69?

 

[Dextersmom]

<SING>Twenty One Jump Street JUUUUMP</SING>

 

[Evan!]

Guess this sums up how I feel.

Ah, yes, the old "if you're not breaking the law you have nothing to worry about" jib...the excuse for every single bad law ever known to man.

Unfortunately for you, the realm of justice is NOT as simply black and white as "obey low=good, break law=bad". Motives, facts, accomplices, states of mind, methods used in prosecuting the crime...they all come into play. What also comes into play is the fact that our justice system was formed in such a way as to give jurors the right, nay, the responsibility to protest what they feel are unjust laws by allowing them to refuse to convict someone for a crime even if ample evidence exists to prosecute the defendant, if the juror feels that the law that was broken is unjust. Like it or not, that's our justice system.

Our system of law also prides itself on procedural adherence...which is illustrated and exaggerated on shows like CSI. Evidence that is collected outside of protocol is not admissible. If crimes were committed because of entrapment by officers, this can also easily be overturned by a mildly competent attorney.

The point that I'm trying to make here is that contrary to your cute little picture, it's not as simple as "don't break the law and you don't have anything to worry about". That view is simplistic, naive and, quite frankly, juvenile.

 

[Reverend JC]

That view is simplistic, naive and, quite frankly, juvenile.

you were giving good debate until you attacked. not a good way to debate.

Here is the problem, no matter how i feel on the subject, if it was put to a vote i would be willing to bet that it would not get 50% approval from the american public. Now you can go on to blame this person or that ad campaign but the fact remains the majority ofthe public, i think, would vote agaisnt legalizing it. Now, the second problem is there is no way the government would ever put that to vote to prove my theory.

You may say, everyone i know would vote for it, well, that is why you are on this forum complaining it is not legal, you probably do hang around a bunch of people that would be for it.

My last point, more for jest but partly true in my mind, lets say they did put the legalization of pot up for vote, i am guessing that unless they have free doritos avaliable at the polls alot of the constituents that would be voting would be too high to leave the couch.

 

[Ryanh1801]

The point that I'm trying to make here is that contrary to your cute little picture, it's not as simple as "don't break the law and you don't have anything to worry about". That view is simplistic, naive and, quite frankly, juvenile.

You can say that all you want Evan, but its the truth!. Just because you don't believe in a law, doesn't mean its a "Bad" law. Not with drugs but I have had hot chicks ask me to get them beer before or to let them into the bar I used to work at for 21, but you know what, I have self control and say no.. People now a days lack the ability to take responsibility. You break the law you take that chance of getting caught, and when you do get caught take the punishment like a man, and don't blame it one "the man" going after you.

 

[Thirdeye]

<snip>i am guessing that unless they have free doritos avaliable at the polls alot of the constituents that would be voting would be too high to leave the couch.

Sounds like you're used to the heavy indica blends. Might I suggest a nice sativa? :cross:

 

[zoebisch01]

so the drugs should be legal cuz some kid got molested by a priest or something else bad happened in his life and he dosent know how to deal with it? While i agree the war should not be waged against the user i think you are way off base as to why teens get into drugs. I have friends that got into them because they were bored, they liked feeling high and to all of my knowlege they were never touched by their "uncle touches me funny".

That's not what I said, I am not so much making the case for/against legality as much as I am saying that the real battlefront should be against countering demand not wasting time trying to cut off supply. It's not going to happen. Chronic drug users have a problem (and I don't always feel it's 'our' responsibility to 'fix' them either, just making a distinction) they are not just 'bored'.

...
...

in general.....

I was also making the case that everyone always says "drugs are bad". "Drugs are bad", that's been drilled into everyone since day one of the 'war on drugs'. Interestingly when Marijuana became illegal, the most prescribed legal drug became Methanphetamines. The problem isn't with the drug, it's with the individual's lack of control. And those kids that do get molested, they probably end up going to the head doc and get an antidepressant or some other drug. It just shifts form.

Again, I probe the question. What would y'all do if Homebrewing became illegal tomorrow? After all it's a drug and we have people dying from alcohol every day. We see it here quite often. What if, right now the AFT had informants in the midst of HBT waiting, watching. What if you went over the legal limit (maybe even by accident, does everyone follow the amounts exactly?) and there was a sting operation on you?

 

[Evan!]

You can say that all you want Evan, but its the truth!. Just because you don't believe in a law, doesn't mean its a "Bad" law. Not with drugs but I have had hot chicks ask me to get them beer before or to let them into the bar I used to work at for 21, but you know what, I have self control and say no.. People now a days lack the ability to take responsibility. You break the law you take that chance of getting caught, and when you do get caught take the punishment like a man, and don't blame it one "the man" going after you.

I can say it all I want because it is the truth, Ryan. Not enough of our populace realizes that we the people can in effect overturn what we the people see as bad laws by refusing, as jurors, to convict on those charges.

What you also refuse to acknowledge is the established principles of entrapment and enticement. This has nothing to do with "being a man". This has to do with the overarching principles of living in a free society that values personal freedoms and individual liberties in some form...and also one that values established procedure when it comes to law enforcement and prosecution...and also one that values the idea of a law actually meaning something. When I say "meaning something", I mean that the prosecutors who are prosecuting people make sure that they are trying to achieve some sort of ideal end rather than simply running up the numbers. For example, in this case, would prosecuting these kids really help towards the goal of eradicating drugs? Prosecutors have to make judgment calls, and they can choose not to try a case if they feel it is unnecessary or unwarranted. So, should they prosecute with a goal of tallying up as many prosecutions as they can? Or should they prosecute with a higher goal, a purpose, driving them?

In essence, Ryan, you are advocating for having laws for laws' sake....and that when a particular law is broken, it doesn't matter what the circumstances surrounding it are. Again, I'm telling you that our justice system does not work in such a primitive, simplistic fashion. Prosecutors, judges and jurors have choices that they can (and do) exercise when it comes to judging the overarching point of the law. If our laws have no purpose other than to prosecute people, then our justice system little more than a club with which to wail on the populace---yet in reality, our justice system should strive to achieve a greater ideal than simply making sure the absolute letter of every law is followed. Hence the terms "letter of the law" vs. "spirit of the law".

Again, your view of the American justice system is extremely simplistic, and runs contrary to the idea of achieving ideal goals via said system.

 

[rattler_mt]

actually i do believe every state thats put medical marijuana to a vote has voted for it.....i know Montana passed it by a 2-1 margin............the feds keep saying pot has no good properties.........the general populace keeps calling BS on the feds everytime its put up to a vote.............

 

[Ryanh1801]

I can say it all I want because it is the truth, Ryan. Not enough of our populace realizes that we the people can in effect overturn what we the people see as bad laws by refusing, as jurors, to convict on those charges.

What you also refuse to acknowledge is the established principles of entrapment and enticement. This has nothing to do with "being a man". This has to do with the overarching principles of living in a free society that values personal freedoms and individual liberties in some form...and also one that values established procedure when it comes to law enforcement and prosecution...and also one that values the idea of a law actually meaning something. When I say "meaning something", I mean that the prosecutors who are prosecuting people make sure that they are trying to achieve some sort of ideal end rather than simply running up the numbers. For example, in this case, would prosecuting these kids really help towards the goal of eradicating drugs? Prosecutors have to make judgment calls, and they can choose not to try a case if they feel it is unnecessary or unwarranted. So, should they prosecute with a goal of tallying up as many prosecutions as they can? Or should they prosecute with a higher goal, a purpose, driving them?

In essence, Ryan, you are advocating for having laws for laws' sake....and that when a particular law is broken, it doesn't matter what the circumstances surrounding it are. Again, I'm telling you that our justice system does not work in such a primitive, simplistic fashion. Prosecutors, judges and jurors have choices that they can (and do) exercise when it comes to judging the overarching point of the law. If our laws have no purpose other than to prosecute people, then our justice system little more than a club with which to wail on the populace---yet in reality, our justice system should strive to achieve a greater ideal than simply making sure the absolute letter of every law is followed. Hence the terms "letter of the law" vs. "spirit of the law".

Again, your view of the American justice system is extremely simplistic, and runs contrary to the idea of achieving ideal goals via said system.

Once again, what you are saying is your opinion... If you think your way is the right way thats fine, but don't sit and try and talk down to me. I would bet I know more about how the U.S. justice system works than you will ever know. So go on living in your own little dream world, don't let the paranoia get to ya too bad. Im done with this thread.

 

[c.n.budz]

I love it when some college kid that's taken a couple criminal justice classes thinks they know everything about the criminal justice system and society as a whole...

 

[Ryanh1801]

I love it when some college kid that's taken a couple criminal justice classes thinks they know everything about the criminal justice system and society as a whole...

HAHA. yeah thats it.. What makes you qualified to talk about it???? I think the fact I have done internships in the Criminal Justice system, have one class left in CJ. So yes I do know the system. So please explain to me what you have done, that makes you more qualified?

 

[Klainmeister]

I can piss farther than both of you...

 

[c.n.budz]

HAHA. yeah thats it.. What makes you qualified to talk about it???? I think the fact I have done internships in the Criminal Justice system, have one class left in CJ. So yes I do know the system. So please explain to me what you have done, that makes you more qualified?

I never made any all encompassing statements about how the system is supposed to work. My comments in this thread have been specifically about the situation that Evan! originally posted about. At your age I felt the same way you do now, "I know everything." I'm sure you are a very intelligent, well read individual, but you are drawing very broad conclusions based on classroom theory and limited life experience.

 

[c.n.budz]

I can piss farther than both of you...

just don't do it into the wind

 

[Reverend JC]

or if you have eaten asparagus, cuz then it smells funny

 

[Pugilist]

I still agree that to put it simply, marijuana is still illegal. The reason so is probably because it impairs judgement and reactionary skills for driving, etc. Personally we shouldnt waste any tax dollars on going after 10th grade Timmy and his nickel bag of seeds and shake. We should go after the guy who has an enormous crop growing in his attic and is selling it to the schoolkids.

This country needs to prioritize and stop wasting money on stings like this when we have a global terror threat, and my BIGGEST beef with my beloved country, people sleeping on the streets while professional athletes and corporations make billions.

As well get some money to the 21 yr old who comes back from Iraq with no legs to his 1 room apt. in Backwaterville USA, with a wife and two kids waiting. Our government treats these veterans like they treat spent ammo casings....their purpose and usefullness is served.

These are just a couple ideas of where to put our taxdollars and make it count.

 

[Ryanh1801]

I never made any all encompassing statements about how the system is supposed to work. My comments in this thread have been specifically about the situation that Evan! originally posted about. At your age I felt the same way you do now, "I know everything." I'm sure you are a very intelligent, well read individual, but you are drawing very broad conclusions based on classroom theory and limited life experience.

I really think you need to reread, im still trying to figure out what BROAD CONCLUSION I made. I am really biting my tongue on the age comment, and trying not to stoop to your level.