The Walking dead

[TwistedGray]

Pretty much everything that led up to Carl not jumping out of the bus/van was show-inspired; however, those who read the comics will catch some clues for later.

Carl's situation was from the comics as-written (they drew a lot of language from the comics, too) with a few exceptions:
a) As noted in a previous post, Jesus was not in the van with Carl in the comics
b) Mark was not ironed in the comics, Amber was
c) The comic and show differ once they reach Alexandria
d) As noted, Judith was already dead in the comics

A few other thoughts:
a) pea-you-ssy
b) Negan's bedroom (not too shabby at all)
c) Letter to Daryl (a test? or Jesus?)
d) Boat home sounds good on paper, but they didn't consider that bodies float (this was not in comics). I think this solves the lack of gun situation IF they don't turn them over to Negan. However, for that to happen they would have to hide the guns before getting back to Alexandria.
e) None of the single bullet stuff happens in the comics so it'll be interesting how that plays out.

 

[TwistedGray]

An interesting set up for the mid season finale, how will Coral's failure hurt the Alexandrians?

A Little Serial Killer in the Making
Negan's interest in Carl is...bizarre to say the least. After Carl shows...initiative by killing two of his men and nearly fighting off two others, Negan shows a disturbing interest in him. Does this save Carl's skin? I'm not so sure. Either way, clearly Negan likes Carl, perhaps he sees him as a potential successor?

Management 101: Negan Style
We get a nice peek at how Negan manages the chaos around him. He offers both a (literal) carrot in the form of "free" food when extra becomes available to his followers, and he threatens with the stick, which in this case is a red hot iron to the face. This is the sort of thing that real life dictators present, they give out generously when they can, but punish harshly. We also get a picture of how he can be coercive, he offers to let Amber leave his harem, but in exchange she, her former husband (who gets the iron later) and her mother all have to work "the same job", presumably zombie wrangling; it's infuriating but effective, technically all the women in his harem say "yes" but only because the consequence is a one-way trip to zombie town for them and their loved ones.

A Little Serial Killer in the Making
If/When Negan dies, it's not up to him to make decisions any longer regardless of whether or not he is grooming Carl as the new leader.

Management 101: Negan Style
They volunteer themselves as his wife. It's not the other way around; however, whether or not they know what they're getting into is a different story.

 

[m_c_zero]

And the CGI used on Coral's eye... not so great. The fake non-eye was wiggling around not in sync with the actor's fidgeting.

Yeah, that was pretty weak... Looked like they just went the makeup route there. Should have just put a green patch on his eye and green-screened it. Feel like they could have done better with CGI.

 

[Zuljin]

An interesting set up for the mid season finale, how will Coral's failure hurt the Alexandrians?

A Little Serial Killer in the Making
Negan's interest in Carl is...bizarre to say the least. After Carl shows...initiative by killing two of his men and nearly fighting off two others, Negan shows a disturbing interest in him. Does this save Carl's skin? I'm not so sure. Either way, clearly Negan likes Carl, perhaps he sees him as a potential successor?

Management 101: Negan Style
We get a nice peek at how Negan manages the chaos around him. He offers both a (literal) carrot in the form of "free" food when extra becomes available to his followers, and he threatens with the stick, which in this case is a red hot iron to the face. This is the sort of thing that real life dictators present, they give out generously when they can, but punish harshly. We also get a picture of how he can be coercive, he offers to let Amber leave his harem, but in exchange she, her former husband (who gets the iron later) and her mother all have to work "the same job", presumably zombie wrangling; it's infuriating but effective, technically all the women in his harem say "yes" but only because the consequence is a one-way trip to zombie town for them and their loved ones.

Disparate Paths
Throughout all of this, different members of the group are taking different paths, Jesus is apparently scouting out the saviors, someone lets Darryl out of his cell, Michonne is trying to find Negan, while Spencer scavenges to try to supplicate the tyrant and Rick and Aaron look ready to do something dangerous to get what they need. It's all supposed to come together somehow next week, but I can't help but wonder how it will all turn out and whether or not we might not be looking at some more shattered skulls.

Side note: Best line of the night comes courtesy of Father Gabriel "What you're saying doesn't make you a sinner, but it does make you a sh*t."

Negan could have designs on making Carl his protege. Carl could be the son he never had. He could be the son he did have and lost to the zombie apocalypse. That doesn't need to be in the comics, as this is not the comics. It could all be one big mind game to get at Carl, Rick and the rest of the group. It could be all these things.

I'm having a hard time believing a Negan could exist, even in TWD universe. He's too cruel to too many people who could overwhelm him and his seemingly reluctant inner circle. There are too many chances for someone to take him out when he's away from a crowd.

Negan himself doesn't offer anything. He's got nothing to offer. Brutal dictators of the past have had the backing of government power, perceived devinity, or tradition- you followed the king because he was the king, and that's how it was for as long as you ever knew. No one older than Judith lived that way. One priest aside, people aren't very religious in this universe. Negan hasn't presented himself as devine. He has no government to back him up. There is no government, that we've seen. Certainly, there's none around the people we see now. He has no rule of law to govern by. No institution what so ever.

Even dictators who had all that have been overthrown, many by deadly force against them personally. Negan is a loosey goosey stylization of Caligula, and Caligula wouldn't have lasted that long without Rome.

Man, that iron scene where Negan is pulling it away from the guy's face and then a piece sticks to the iron and then slaps back to his face leaving a divot. That was some great makeup/effects work there...

When I was a kid, I pulled out a kitchen chair and stuck my elbow to the door of a hot toaster oven. When I pulled my arm away, the door came with it, skin pulling away much like that scene. Hurt like a mofo.

 

[TwistedGray]

I'm having a hard time believing a Negan could exist, even in TWD universe. Negans exist in today's society so why do you think they couldn't in a TWD universe? He's too cruel to too many people who could overwhelm him and his seemingly reluctant inner circle. There are too many chances for someone to take him out when he's away from a crowd. True, on paper, but in reality people are sheep, generally weak, easy to follow the pack leader. This is a common characteristic of most people.

Negan himself doesn't offer anything. He's got nothing to offer. He offers a society, a way of life. Like it or not. Brutal dictators of the past have had the backing of government power, perceived devinity, or tradition- you followed the king because he was the king, and that's how it was for as long as you ever knew. No one older than Judith lived that way. One priest aside, people aren't very religious in this universe. Negan hasn't presented himself as devine. He has no government to back him up. There is no government, that we've seen. Certainly, there's none around the people we see now. He has no rule of law to govern by. No institution what so ever. The saviors clearly have some established laws as you just saw the consequences of breaking a rule. Whatever the rules...whatever the punishment, they have a system of "laws" they abide by.

Even dictators who had all that have been overthrown, many by deadly force against them personally. I am sure with a society of people that large you are going to have unhappy people such as the one who just got a hot iron pressed against his face. However, do those people outnumber the ones who follow sheepishly? Generally speaking, in all societies, No! However with they sheepishly follow the next person in charge? Yes. Will they pick up arms to fight the internal uprising...some may, some may not. Negan is a loosey goosey stylization of Caligula, and Caligula wouldn't have lasted that long without Rome.

Some thoughts...(in red)

 

[Zuljin]

Negan couldn't exist in TWD universe because that universe lacks the mechanisms for him to exist. It lacks the mechanisms for his followers to exist. The TWD universe is actually counteractive to a Negan.

People in the TWD universe have a very basic set of needs. Food and water. Shelter. Clothing. Security.

Negan does not himself produce food and water. He has people steal it. Those people and the people who receive it can see that. They can see their group has no means of production. They can see that other more agreeable groups do. Some of them probably came from groups like that. Some didn't. Some certainly found themselves reliant on Negan for what he could procure. Procure, not produce. Dwight's sister (or sister in law) needing medicine is one example, but it's just the one, and she's dead now. Dwight is beholden to Negan now because he has his wife hostage. He is oppressed. Oppression breeds resistance.

Shelter is easy and getting easier. This is a prime example of how the TWD universe is counteractive to a Negan. The people of TWD don't need a credit score and a down payment to get a mortgage. They don't even need a job. All they have to do is clear out a building and post up in it. It can be any building. It's not like they have zoning ordinances.

Clothing. Easy peasy lemon squeezy. There are literal piles of clothing all over the place. And they don't need to be business suits and power ties to land that good job. They don't even have to be in style. All they have to be is suited to the environment of the southern United States. It doesn't even snow in this show.

Security. Ah ha! There it is. That's what Negan provides, and people will give up a lot of freedom for a little security. Not so fast. The only security Negan provides is security from Negan. He's a one man protection racket. That's not enough. Especially not if we believe that people are sheeple, easily lead, and will fall in behind the next leader. Any Tom, Dick or Haremette could be that next leader by dragging a lawnmower blade though Negan's neck, parading out on the deck with his head held up by his hair, and declare themselves the new king. Carl should've flipped his ass over the railing right there; and all hail the boy king. Send Daryl to get Rick, Michone and Judith, bam, instant royal family.

The walkers aren't the real threat any more. That sentiment has been expressed directly. They're a nuisance at this point. A deadly nuisance, but nothing a band of determined and half witted group of people can't deal with. The two biggest threats they pose to a group is as a large herd or as weapons used by other people. A lone surprise walker or two is only a threat to a lone person or two.

The largest threat now is other people. Negan is just another person. Singular. He's far outnumbered by his encamped oppressed. Even farther by his remotely oppressed.

Now, we do know he does have some leverage. He's leveraged Daryl against Rick. He's got Dwight's wife. He's got someone of Ezekiel's. What about Hilltop? Oceanside has an arsenal, but they lack numbers, and are terrified. These are small leverages in the grand scheme. People have fought against enemies who held more captives than this before. What makes us think they won't here?

No. Negan does not offer enough security to warrant his existence.

Now, there may be a group of complete nightmare barbarians just over the next ridge, but our cast doesn't know that, yet. What they do know is that other more agreeable groups exist.

Negan is worse than a poorly stylized Caligula. He's an overly simplified Jim Jones. He's a cult leader in a universe missing the mechanics for him.

And he may have rules, but he does not have rule of law.

Negan is a great character to hate. He's a perfect target we really want to see our group take down, but he's not one we can believe in as anything more than a constructed antagonist.

 

[m_c_zero]

He may not be what they make him out to be, but at least he provides some comic relief (when he's not being a complete dick that is)

 

[lupulinaddict]

What's Carl's punishment going to be? Negan keeps Judith? There has to be a big ending if it's the finale episode. Im wondering if his punishment is that big moment.

 

[BigPicture]

Cut the head off the snake & all that. 80% of Negan's own people hate his guts.

 

[slym2none]

Here's my thoughts on this last epi:

Carl wants to kill Negan. That's his schtick right now, yes? So, after he is discovered and kills two of the Saviors, Negan pops up literally in Carl's sights. Carl doesn't shoot him.

I call that a pile of excrement from a male bovine.

Later, Negan hands Carl his bat and then goes for Judith. No way in hell am I letting him lay hands on my baby sister. Carl could have bashed Negan's skull in with Lucille right then & there. He doesn't.

Again, a large pile of excrement from a male bovine.

/rant

 

[Talgrath]

Cut the head off the snake & all that. 80% of Negan's own people hate his guts.

Do we actually have proof of that? We've seen a small number of individuals that hate him and the show has focused on them, but guys like Fat Joseph, Simon and those two schmoes Carl gunned down seem to be pretty happy with the situation. The people that seem unhappy with it are the people on the bad end of things under Negan; but how many people is that? We don't really know.

 

[Talgrath]

Management 101: Negan Style
They volunteer themselves as his wife. It's not the other way around; however, whether or not they know what they're getting into is a different story.

Well sure, they "volunteered", perhaps in the same way that Sherry "volunteered" herself to save Dwight's life. I get the feeling that Negan is basically using their loved ones as hostages to keep them from defying him.

 

[m_c_zero]

Here's my thoughts on this last epi:

Carl wants to kill Negan. That's his schtick right now, yes? So, after he is discovered and kills two of the Saviors, Negan pops up literally in Carl's sights. Carl doesn't shoot him.

I call that a pile of excrement from a male bovine.

Later, Negan hands Carl his bat and then goes for Judith. No way in hell am I letting him lay hands on my baby sister. Carl could have bashed Negan's skull in with Lucille right then & there. He doesn't.

Again, a large pile of excrement from a male bovine.

/rant

It was the same thing a few episodes back when Negan first visited Alexandria. When Negan was off killing the zombie with a candlestick and Rick had Lucille. He could have totally bashed in Negan's skull right then and there but he instead restrained himself. They are being much more rational about the situation than they should be, though Negan did pretty much break Rick's will. Carl had the chance and he didn't do it either. Now we've got Michone and Rosita going after Negan. Are they going to be able to do it?

To me it all comes down to this being a scripted show and having to save Negan's death til the end of the season.

 

[GrogNerd]

To me it all comes down to this being a scripted show and having to save Negan's death til the end of the season.

again, Jeffrey Dean Morgan is set to return next season, so odds are he will survive this one

my $$$ is on Dwight to be the one killing Negan

next year

 

[m_c_zero]

again, Jeffrey Dean Morgan is set to return next season, so odds are he will survive this one

Yeah, guess they didn't kill off The Governor until well into the season after introducing him. My guess is that Negan will survive the season finale, but I highly doubt he will retain his "Negan" status. My guess is that they will either run him off or capture him.

 

[slym2none]

It was the same thing a few episodes back when Negan first visited Alexandria. When Negan was off killing the zombie with a candlestick and Rick had Lucille. He could have totally bashed in Negan's skull right then and there but he instead restrained himself. They are being much more rational about the situation than they should be, though Negan did pretty much break Rick's will. Carl had the chance and he didn't do it either. Now we've got Michone and Rosita going after Negan. Are they going to be able to do it?

To me it all comes down to this being a scripted show and having to save Negan's death til the end of the season.

To the last sentence - well, yeah. Duh.

To the rest - Carl is being impetuous. Reckless. Careless. Not thinking things through, and damn the consequences. Rick is restrained, because he knows better. Carl... all I am saying is, he should have at least taken a shot at Negan, even if he missed (for the first time ever) Or maybe some gunfire from the Saviors drove him back? Anything other than "I have to kill Negan, and now he's in my gun sights, but I can't because TV show."

Again - one large pile of male bovine excrement.

 

[LabRatBrewer]

Watching Fred Claus and Negan was trying to pick up Santa's brothers girlfriend. My son said, "thank God he doesnt have the bat"....wife gives me evil eye

 

[Zuljin]

Really? Really?

Okay. I saw Spencer's death coming. He was being a fink, and Negan's not going to take to a fink. They aren't trustworthy. And he doesn't want someone interfering with the game he's running on Rick.

No surprise he took Eugene after learning he can make ammo.

But Negan swats away a .45 ACP with a baseball bat? Even as a one off freak, he did it some how or Rosalee accidentally shot the bat, bull crap. Negan should be dead. This is worse than Glen under the dumpster.

I get not taking Judith or making a play on the knowledge of Judith. Carl is going to tell Rick that Negan knows. Negan may think that taking Judith would be the last straw that broke Rick beyond usefulness. Or it would push Rick to war.

Now, what's going to happen to Dwight and Sherry when Negan learns Daryl is gone? Someone is getting blamed for that.

 

[Talgrath]

Really? Really?

Okay. I saw Spencer's death coming. He was being a fink, and Negan's not going to take to a fink. They aren't trustworthy. And he doesn't want someone interfering with the game he's running on Rick.

No surprise he took Eugene after learning he can make ammo.

But Negan swats away a .45 ACP with a baseball bat? Even as a one off freak, he did it some how or Rosalee accidentally shot the bat, bull crap. Negan should be dead. This is worse than Glen under the dumpster.

I get not taking Judith or making a play on the knowledge of Judith. Carl is going to tell Rick that Negan knows. Negan may think that taking Judith would be the last straw that broke Rick beyond usefulness. Or it would push Rick to war.

Now, what's going to happen to Dwight and Sherry when Negan learns Daryl is gone? Someone is getting blamed for that.

I think Rosita missed and/or it was a freak shot, not that Negan somehow supernaturally swatted a bullet from midair. Negan seemed legitimately freaked out by it.

 

[Talgrath]

The mid season finale was actually kind of positive, if you can believe it. Okay yes, Negan took Eugene, but hey, Spencer is gone and Rick got his Colt Python back! Look on the bright side!

You've Got No Guts
So Spencer and Olivia are gone, cutting down on the list of vaguely important characters we either outright hated (Spencer) or didn't really care about (Olivia). In truth, Olivia really didn't deserve to die, but it's hard to see her doing well in the apocalypse and it's also hard to imagine her becoming something truly dangerous to zombies or humans. I don't think anyone is crying much over Spencer though, after he tried to sleaze his way into Negan's good graces. As a side note: the Negan shaving bit was a nice call back to two seasons ago when Rick arrived in Alexandria and shaved.

Daryl and Jesus' Messy Escape
Daryl finally made his escape this episode, turns out Jesus was the one that gave him the key. Daryl snuck past some arguing saviors to get some peanut butter and a change of clothes, before giving Fat Joseph the same treatment Negan gave Glenn and Abraham. But I'm not so sure Darryl isn't somewhat psychologically scarred from his encounters with the Saviors, saying to the bloodied corpse "It ain’t just about getting by, here, it’s about getting it all."; could Darryl go off the deep end just as Rick and company seem to be uniting?

Avengers Assemble?
With the vicious beating of Aaron, the abduction of Eugene, the scarring of Rosita and the slaughter of Spencer, Rick seems to have reached a decision that this cannot continue. We're treated to a nice montage of the group reuniting in Hilltop and heading into the main house, presumably to plan how to take Negan down, but they're still outnumbered, they still need Hilltop and the Kingdom's help, and probably Oceanside too. We got a peak at the meeting between the Ricktator and Ezekiel in the second half of the season preview, but will he be willing to go to war?

I Just Want to be Left Alone
Speaking of the Kingdom, it's cheeriest assassin neighbor, Carol made a brief appearance. Carol insisted the whole time that she didn't want any company, but she did call Morgan in when he dropped off some fruit, indicating that maybe she does still want some company. Then Richard, the Kingdom warrior that took a beating a few episodes ago, showed up and things got more serious; Richard sees the writing on the wall, and thinks the Kingdom should go to war, unfortunately for them he's picked the wrong ears to bend for this particular idea, Morgan is a bit of a pacifist after all and Carol wants nothing to do with any of it. Somehow I doubt Carol will continue to live her charmed life existence in the country for long, though.

 

[m_c_zero]

Now, what's going to happen to Dwight and Sherry when Negan learns Daryl is gone? Someone is getting blamed for that.

I was also thinking it was one of those two at first but then when Daryl and Jesus met, it was pretty obvious that Jesus was sneaking Daryl out.

 

[m_c_zero]

Glad Daryl was able to retrieve Rick's gun. It seems pretty symbolic to Rick's badassery. Without it, he was a sniveling girly man but now that he's got it back, he's ready to kick some ass. Excited for February but still pissed that they are breaking up the seasons like this.

 

[m_c_zero]

So the questions now are who the hell was the person in the boots who followed Rick and Aaron back to Alexandria?

Also, wtf is this?

 

[dmtaylor]

So the questions now are who the hell was the person in the boots who followed Rick and Aaron back to Alexandria?

Good question. Could it be the Sir Richard guy from the Kingdom? Or King Ezekiel himself? I have to admit, I never paid attention to their footwear. Somehow Alexandria has to make a connection to even know about the Kingdom's existence, which we know they find out about in the next part of the season, but it's not clear yet how that connection will be made, so this could be part of that.

Or it could also just be a lone hermit who wrote the note about "even though you think you've won, you lose" or whatever it was. Maybe he set that whole lagoon up as a decoy so he could follow anyone who made it through to lead him back to a community so he can steal more stuff. If he's got any ninja skills like Jesus, he could go in and out of a community in the dark of night to steal stuff to further his own existence or the existence of his own people if he has any.

Could also be a scout or someone from Oceanside? Doubtful but who knows.

Still wondering about the Wolves... when in the hell are they coming back into the fray?

 

[m_c_zero]

My guess is someone from Oceanside. They are going to need to tie them back in before the Savior showdown.

 

[Zuljin]

I was also thinking it was one of those two at first but then when Daryl and Jesus met, it was pretty obvious that Jesus was sneaking Daryl out.

Hmmm. Maybe so. But Negan doesn't know that.

 

[Zuljin]

I was also thinking it was one of those two at first but then when Daryl and Jesus met, it was pretty obvious that Jesus was sneaking Daryl out.

So the questions now are who the hell was the person in the boots who followed Rick and Aaron back to Alexandria?

Also, wtf is this?

My wife says it's a walker turned into a weapon.

 

[TwistedGray]

The lake/pond dude is dead; his body was in the boathouse thing. I imagine he committed suicide, but not entire certain.

I think I know who the boot dude is based on the comics; however, it doesn't quite make sense...well...kind of but not really at all. Simply put, I dunno...but will be interesting

 

[BamaProud]

OK vote

Rosita

or

Maggie

 

[TwistedGray]

In those pics I'll go Rosita

 

[martiniw2olives]

Dumb question, Rosita

 

[Zuljin]

Maggie.

 

[BamaProud]

I gotta go with Rosita too.

(use whatever pictures you want I just though the question/vote needed visuals)

 

[CGVT]

Jeanie!

 

[m_c_zero]

My wife says it's a walker turned into a weapon.

I was thinking that too. Weaponized zombies.

 

[Zuljin]

Jeanie!

Carol.

 

[GrogNerd]

sorry, my town is crawling with cute Latinas, diez centavos por docena

I'll take the dark-haired, green-eyed Anglo

 

[m_c_zero]

I dunno, the whole cancer-patient-esque thing that Maggie has going on now is not very appealing

 

[8rnw8]

I dunno, the whole cancer-patient-esque thing that Maggie has going on now is not very appealing

Totally agree.

 

[GrogNerd]

pressure from Hollywood to be anorexic

she used to look healthy