The thin line between 'Belgian' and 'English'

[Nateo]

I recently entered a local homebrew competition under the "Belgian Dark Strong Ale" category. Here's the gist of the recipe:

73% American 2-row
14% Turbinado
8% D2 syrup
5% Special B
2oz French oak chips in secondary

OG 1.095
FG 1.010
IBUs 23

Fermented at 76* with 3787 for 23 days

All three of the judges loved the beer, but dinged me really hard for the beer not being "to style." They also all three identified it as an English oak aged Barleywine, which was not really at all what I thought I was making.

They all said there was no "Belgian" character to it, but I fermented it pretty hot with 3787 to try to get as much character as possible. I don't try to brew "to style" often, but this was one case where I was actually trying to brew to style and totally missed the mark.

Any thoughts/ideas as to where I went wrong?

 

[GuldTuborg]

Maybe the judges were just wrong. What do you think after tasting it? Did the oak overpower any of the yeast character? Do you think your choice of base malt influenced the flavor appreciably? I don't know the answer to any of these, of course, but those would be the kinds of questions I'd ask myself first.

Oh, and 76F isn't really that hot with 3787. The Westvleteren beers take that yeast up to 84F routinely, and it seems to be a very popular beer amongst the few that have had it.

 

[Prionburger]

Maybe you started too hot. Westmalle (which is where 3787 comes from I believe) starts their beers fermenting at a cool 64f. They ramp it up over time to a modest 68f. I've had a great amount of success and huge Belgian flavor coming out of beers fermented this way.

 

[bknifefight]

I have brewed with 3787 and had not as much Belgian notes as I expected. Not to say they weren't there, but they weren't overly strong. I think 76 is a high temperature for many yeasts but it's pretty reasonable for 3787. Like people said, you can pump that baby up to low 80's and it wouldn't be out of the question.

 

[Oldsock]

Maybe too much oak? The wood aroma may have obscured the yeast character. That said, I suspect poor judging, at that high attenuation and low IBUs, I can't see it tasting like a barleywine. It may also be that it followed a really spicy/fruity beer and in comparison seemed less assertive.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

I don't usually taste a lot of oak character in that kind of Belgian beer. I'm thinking you ended up with a small ester profile and noticeable oak, which is a flavor profile more suited for an English barleywine than a Belgian Dark.

I also suspect the 2 row malt gave it a more English-American flavor than the traditionally used pilsner. Although some will likely disagree with the difference or need for pilsner over 2 row, obviously the judges didn't find it very "Belgian".

 

[the_bird]

I can't see drinking a beer with a FG of 1.01 and thinking "barleywine."

 

[Nateo]

After I got the scoresheets back I opened up another bottle to refresh my memory.

The oak was more prominent than I remembered it being at bottling time. The yeast character was there if you thought about it, but it took a backseat to the oak. I personally thought the oak was a subtle/background flavor when I bottled it, but it seems to have come out more over time. Mixed with the dark fruit character from the sugars and special B, it really does remind me of a pinot noir now.

The high alcohol content balanced the beer nicely, even though the IBUs were pretty low. The low end of the English barleywine IBU range is only 35, so I can see where they're coming from.

 

[Teacher]

I, also, would guess it was the oak. Also, maybe using American pale malt in conjunction with the oak pushed it out of the "Belgian" range (which certainly isn't to say Belgians don't use pale malt).

 

[syd138]

Well, it might be because of the oak chips.

But either way that seems like a load of BS.

I can see that with specific styles like Belgians Wits, there are certain rules.. use white wheat, coriander, dried orange peel, have a og around 1.050, etc.

But with Belgian Dark Strongs, at least from what I have read and seen, there is a huge range of OGs, IBUs, hops, grain, sugar, yeasts, etc. Each BDS that I have tried is pretty unique and that is what I like about the style.

Seems like you got robbed.

But keep it up, keep creating your own BDSs.. don't try to adhear to and stupid guidelines.

 

[syd138]

Oh, and 76F isn't really that hot with 3787. The Westvleteren beers take that yeast up to 84F routinely, and it seems to be a very popular beer amongst the few that have had it.

But Westvleteren is the exception.

Most of the other Trappists brew in the mid 70s

 

[starrfish]

I generally think the line is pretty wide between these two. (I usually try to brew close to style.)

How long was it on the oak? Oak may have just gotten a bit too much, and obscured Belgian-ness. Things like smoked malts and oak can really take a beer out of style quickly.

That being said it sounds like a great beer! Enter it in another competition, in the suggested category and see how you do... LOL depending on judges it may come back as too Belgian! Ive been trying to do 1 or two competitions a year.

 

[Nateo]

It was on the oak for a week. I wasn't planning on competing with it, but then I heard about a local Belgian/French only competition, so I thought I'd give it a shot.

It was the first competition I've done. I got some good feedback on a couple other brews, so I'd say overall I feel it was worth the time and effort to enter.

 

[starrfish]

Oak can be tricky, and it does fade over time.

That's the way I feel about competitions too. Get's me some different feedback. Usually same small group gets to taste my beers.

 

[Nateo]

I assumed that Belgian beers were traditionally aged in oak barrels.

Does anyone know if they were in direct contact with the wood, or were the barrels lined with pitch to prevent oakiness?

 

[TheCarnie]

I would have used pilsner malt as my base, instead of regular 2 row.
$0.02

 

[KingBrianI]

I too have entered a BDSA fermented with 3787 into a competition and gotten dinged for it lacking the characteristic "Belgian esters". I've brewed with the yeast extensively and really like it, it gives a very particular flavor to beers but isn't particularly estery. I think a lot of judges are looking for Chimay-type esters and get confused when they don't get them. It's too bad really, since like was mentioned, BDSAs vary significantly and 3787 makes a fine one.

 

[Oldsock]

I assumed that Belgian beers were traditionally aged in oak barrels.

Does anyone know if they were in direct contact with the wood, or were the barrels lined with pitch to prevent oakiness?

Belgian sours are traditionally aged in unlined oak barrels and tuns, but the wood is generally old and doesn't impart much flavor. Not many other Belgians are oak aged today, although there are starting to be some Bourbon barrel aged clean beers produced by the likes of de Struise.

I’m not positive what the process was like hundreds of years ago, but like other areas most of the barrels were probably lined with pitch. The only thing that really matters for the competition though is that it isn't part of the current BJCP guidelines.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Most of the other Trappists brew in the mid 70s

My point exactly. Mid 70s is quite normal and expected for this strain, not "hot," as the OP indicated. Mid 80s is hot, mid 70s is pretty normal, below 70 (like Wesmalle does) is definitely on the cool side. The character differs quite a bit, and it shows if you sample a couple of these beers side by side.

 

[Prionburger]

Most of the Trappist brewers, actually all of them according to Brew Like a Monk, pitch below 70f. Usually 64-68f. A decent chunk of the fermentation occurs at this temperature, and then it ramps up to the mid 70s. I think this reduces some of the bitter fusels and undesirable esters that muddy up the beer. I get a much cleaner, more defined flavor starting at lower temps.

I would argue that pitching in the upper/mid 70s is hot for the Westmalle strain (3787). Some Belgian yeasts start at those temperatures, but those are different yeast strains. Not only that, but they are in giant fermenters, which suppress esters and hot alcohol formation. 84f in a commercial scale fermenter will correspond to a much lower temp on the homebrew scale.

The saison strains are another matter, where you can start a bit higher and ramp way higher without producing a lot of stuff that hides the good yeast character. But for the Chimay and Westmalle strains, I'd start well below 70f; closer to 62-64.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Exactly right. I'm certainly not advocating pitching at those temps. I'm just stating that letting fermentation reach them isn't terrible, and what counts as low, medium, and hot temps for this strain is a bit different from our more commonly used American and English yeasts.

 

[Houblon]

Why did you add oak? How many Belgian beers have you tasted oak?

What hops?

 

[syd138]

But anyhow, again.. props to you for trying something different. If it weren't for people trying different things, beer would be pretty boring.

Its too bad that comeptitions focus too much on strict guidelines rather than just juding whether it tastes good or not.

 

[Nateo]

Why did you add oak? How many Belgian beers have you tasted oak?

What hops?

1) I thought it would taste good
2) None, although Boulevard has a bourbon barrel quad, which is sort of what inspired me to try oak in it.
3) US Goldings

I'm pretty proud of my beer, despite the poor showing, proud enough to share it with you all:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f74/belgian-barleywine-contest-tested-212251/