The sting of BJCP critique!

[Bobby_M]

I always said I'd never get into BJCP based competitions because I don't need the validation of an expert to enjoy the hobby or my own beers. I eventually caved and sent in a simple Blonde recipe that everyone seemed to like. I just got the two sheets back and scored 17 and 19 out of 50. Ouch. One guy said it was more like a Berliner Wiess and both noted a vinegary/sourness off flavor. I suppose it could have been a rushed bottle sanitation because I actually bottled only four before kegging the rest. I had sampled two of them myself just to make sure they were OK. What are the odds that the 2 of 4 I sent in were soured? Maybe I just have no palette or ability to perceive off flavors.

I'm not really discouraged but ouch.. a little bit.

 

[Joker]

If you cleaned and sanitized all 4 at the same time with the same procedure I think they would all be the same.

Not sure what to tell you on the review other then keep brewing if you and your friends enjoy the brew thats all that really matters.

 

[hopshead]

Just remember that the judges are lookin' to see if something is "to style." I say the hell with style - I brew what I like and tastes good to me. If the bjcp doesn't have a 'style' that fits my beer so what. I don't like competitions either.

 

[the_bird]

If you need a second opinion...

 

[Ryanh1801]

Screw em. If you and your friends like your beer thats all that matters.

 

[McKBrew]

I've read enough threads from other people who have entered the competitions that I really think the whole process is very subjective and regardless of how judging is supposed to work, if the judge doesn't care for a particular style he is going to give bad marks.

Plus, depending on how many samples are tried and regardless of "palette cleansing," if they had a really bad beer, that taste is going to be impressed in their mind for the next few samples.

My theory on the whole thing is if it tastes good to you, then it's good. I'd still like to enter competitions just for the heck of it, but I'd probably be a bit pissxd if a good beer got low scores.

 

[rdwj]

I consider if a waste of my beer to send it off to be judged

 

[Brewpastor]

A good judge can help you know what is going on with you beer based on particular parameters. That can be useful if you are needed feedback. Sometimes however you get a crappy judge or they get a crappy bottle and the whole thing goes out the window.

The only way you win a comp is by being judged, if that matters.

 

[teu1003]

The whole "brew what my friends and i like" vs "competition beers" thing always raises a lot of mixed emotions. the fact is this ... when a friend tells me he likes my beer, i frequently wonder whether he is just saying that he likes me. Face it: have you ever told a friend his awful beer was tasty?? I have. I am not about to start telling friends their beers suck. Ok, I'd make a lousy judge.

To be honest, I have made a lot of run of the mill beers ... they're ok, I drink them and share them. Friends will taste them and i'll take most of a keg back home ... its cool.

But a few times, I have made WONDERFUL beers. These I have entered in competitions and have several blue and red ribbons to show for it.

These have become my house beers. When someone who has no clue who you are tells you about your beers, you listen. I dont ask whether he's had a bad day or bad palate cleansing crackers. I read his comments and take heed. THIS is how you become a better brewer.

 

[boo boo]

What I have been doing with regards to comps is;
I bottle 6 each of the ones I enter. I send two. On the day they sample, I drink one and write down what I think the brew tastes like etc, as per the style I entered. When I get the judges score sheet back I then open the remaining brews ensuring a clean palate and then judge them again myself. Of course being critical and keeping in mind the judges comments.

I find this process has helped me brew better beer. I got a silver this past week for a bitter in a national comp. Nice to get a medal, but I value the feedback almost as or as much as the medal.

It is hard to get an honest opinion of my brews locally because I feel my friends don't want to hurt my feelings although I tell them their honesty is what I want. And that the only way I can improve is by by honest feedback.
I like everything I brew anyway and some of my friends only want a buzz and could care less how a brew tastes.

 

[Bobby_M]

The worst part of it is not knowing if the beer that eventually got to the judges lips is the exact one that I tasted many times before. The portion of the batch that was kegged didn't last more than two weeks. I doubt I would have liked something that tasted like vinegar. I'll continue entering though.

 

[Kevin Dean]

Keep in mind that it's a criticism of your beer, not you.

I too wonder what the "value" of having beer judged is, and I think I have a good reason even though I don't care about style or anything. My equipment, my water, my mash temps, my grain crush, all of them lend a touch to my beers. Some things I might not even be aware of. When you submit a beer that's "close" to the right style, you'll have an enthusiast rate it. They note the "too bitters" that you have become accustomed to (because of hard water... Whatever). Over the course of a few submissions, you may notice trends that help you adjust your brewing to increase consistancy.

Nobody can tell you how to make "good" beer, since that's highly subjective. The aid of a skilled taster can go along way in teaching you to control your own brews.

 

[Chad]

<snippity doo dah> I just got the two sheets back and scored 17 and 19 out of 50. Ouch. One guy said it was more like a Berliner Wiess and both noted a vinegary/sourness off flavor.

Dang, Bobby, that just sucks. I'm sorry. I can tell you, having just finished three of your beers, that you brew pretty good beer. Dunno what happened with that particular batch or those particular bottles, but the samples I've tasted have been solid, clean, and well made. I don't have a BJCP badge or secret decoder ring or anything, so take my opinion for what it is worth, but I'd just chalk it up to an anomaly.

Chad

 

[Bearcat Brewmeister]

I just got the two sheets back and scored 17 and 19 out of 50. Ouch. One guy said it was more like a Berliner Wiess and both noted a vinegary/sourness off flavor.

That is a tough break, Bobby. Did they both notice anything else? Worse, did they have any conflicting comments? Did they note their judging experience level? I have sometimes gotten sheets where it was pretty obvious that a more experienced judge influenced the opinion of the other (eraser marks then comments that are a subset of the experienced judge).

I guess it is helpful that there at least were comments and you have some critique, as painful as it is to hear, that you can use to tweak your recipe. Worst is getting short comments and crappy scores and you have no idea what to fix. Equally as bad is something like getting one judge that says your APA has too much aroma compared to flavor and the other saying it needs more aroma and you still don't know what to fix.

If you assume that the sourness was a fluke issue and that is what mainly killed your score, what about the style issue that the one judge brought up? Have you compared your ingredients to other Blonde and Berliner Weiss recipes and see if they are closer to one than the other or is the guy just out to lunch.

All that said, just make beer that you like to drink and screw everyone else, realizing that it may be great beer that doesn't fit neatly into a judged style.

 

[Spyk'd]

One word...shipping.


Obviously the beer was mishandled when it was shipped that caused the off flavor. Right?

:cross:


Your beer is fine, now you can resume restful nights and send samples to as many of us as possible.

 

[Bobby_M]

Blondes are hard to screw up IMHO. It's 2 row and a single bittering hop addition. Jamil's podcast on this style talks about simplicity, no hop aroma, etc. I'm pretty sure it's to style. A Berliner is a sour beer. Both sheets said "watch sanitation" at least 3 times in the comments. One guy was BJCP recognized and the other was apprentice.

The place where I went out of style is that I must have mashed a couple degrees too low so it dried out 2 points out of range. I doubt that was the cause of the sour off flavor.

 

[TexLaw]

If they got something sour in the beer, then that's really what killed you. If a judge thinks a beer got infected, then you'll always wind up with a score under 20. It's hard to say if they were right, though. You'll never know what they actually tried. Both bottles didn't need to be infected, though, just one. The other bottle (for the later round) never made it to a table.

I get a little worried when I see that your panel was one Recognized judge (someone who has scored from 60-69 on the exam or has fewer than 5 experience points) and one Apprentice (someone who has taken the exam and not yet received a score or who scored less than 60). That suggests a less experienced panel who may have mixed up some other flavor with contamination. I know that an overly dry beer with little hops often comes across as bit sour, especially in aroma. I wonder if either of those guys have ever actually tried a true, puckering Berliner Weisse or other beer with a real dose of lactobacillus.

In any case, that's the breaks of competitions. When you enter, you must remember that you enter a competition judged by hobbyists. Head judges usually try their best to get experienced judges at every table, but they have to choose from what they get.

As some of the others said, you have to take those comments in stride and in context. Listen to the comments, but trust your palate, as well.


TL

 

[Joker]

Don't judge your beer by what your friends say judge it by what they do. If they keep asking for more then it must be good. If the nurse it and say yeah it tastes great but don't want another then something might be off.

 

[Soulive]

I consider if a waste of my beer to send it off to be judged

Agreed

 

[Brewpastor]

I am a judge and take it seriously, but know the pit falls. If I was tasting sour in a blonde I would score it like they seem to have scored it. I had three beers make it to the second round of Nationals last Summer. 2 placed first is the southwest regionals and the other came in second. One of them was the highest ranked stout nationally (RIS) coming out of the first round. None of them did squat in the second round and got very middling scores and the comments showed unimpressed judges. I do think the beers were good, but judges make their own calls. It also depends not only on the judge but where your beer is in the tasting order. I still say comps and judging have their place, but it is a grain of salt kind of thing.

We actually need more qualified judges to raise the standard even higher. Maybe we should do some training through this forum.

 

[FlyGuy]

We actually need more qualified judges to raise the standard even higher. Maybe we should do some training through this forum.

Hey, now there are two great ideas. I would LOVE it if something could be orchestrated. I am sure that there would be some interest in this (I would certainly be interested - I am trying to do the self-study method right now and not finding it easy).

Regarding competitions and judging, I think it is important to not take them too seriously, especially when you get disappointing comments. As discussed, there are a lot of different reasons why you might not score as highly as you think, only one of which is that your beer isn't to the same quality as you think. Bobby -- that's a real shame that this competition didn't work out for you -- I bet it wasn't your fault. But hopefully it won't discourage you from another one. Perhaps you will get some really good feedback from the next one and it significantly helps you to improve your brews.

 

[Bobby_M]

One of the learning experiences I got out of this was to NOT send your last bottle. I can't even resample this batch now to see if I can detect the flaws now that they've been noted. I will continue to submit brews. I half regret starting this thread because I feel like I'm whining. It was just a venting outlet though because I thought that this particular beer was clean. It very well could be that these judges hate lighter beers or mine was really horrible.

 

[Brewpastor]

I had a beer score sheet come back once that simply said, "This beer is bad." It was very helpful.

 

[FlyGuy]

I didn't read into it that you were whining. Venting maybe, but that's what we are here for!

Regardless, I hope it felt better to get it off your chest.

 

[modenacart]

I find it very helpful to bring my beer to the homebrew club meetings to have it judged. It helps me to learn what the off flavours really taste like and it keeps me from being too stubborn to realize my beer sucked last time I made it.

I think it keeps me honest getting the club to tell me what they really think, and its been more "bad" than good, but my beer is getting better.

 

[Bobby_M]

I do the same thing. I bring at least one beer for the club flight every month. I think the most common remark on this blonde was "wow, I haven't given blondes much of a chance because I always associated them to the ale version of BMC but this is a really good beer"... okay!

 

[Ryan_PA]

Seems like you and others ARE happy with the brew. Why not leave well enough alone?

 

[Rudeboy]

TOTALLY STOLEN FROM THE BOATHOUSE BREWERY

Top Ten Reasons Why I Hate Homebrew Competitions
posted by benjy
10. Turning in bottles renders you with no control over your beer after it leaves your hands.

9. Judging beer by a few sips doesn’t allow you to tell what the beer is really like. How can you judge a session beer by a few ounces?

8. Judges reward big beers and weird beers, so classic beers brewed strictly within the style suffer.

7. People “cheat” by entering beer brewed outside the style specifications and by entering many beers to increase their chances.

6. Competition brings out the geek/snob in some homebrewers.

5. Judges often criticize the beer without suggesting improvements.

4. Sweeter beers do better than properly attenuated beers because the judges go for the bigger body.

3. Taste is so subjective that the final winners can be selected based on judge’s individual preferences and bias.

2. You have to bottle beer.

And the Number One Reason…

1. We never win!

 

[the_bird]

I don't think anyone thinks you're whining, Bobby (that's my department). Real pisser, it was either a freaky infection or piss-poor judging; in any case, next time be as thorough as you possibly can be with the sanitizing and hope that you get a good couple of judges.

I would like to enter a couple of competitions this year, but I do worry that there's a lot of truth to the top ten list. I do wonder how accurately I could judge a beer having just a small glass to sample, which may or may not be at the right temperature, which may or may not have been poured correctly, and which may be the first beer I'm judging or it could be the very last.

I mean, as piss-poor as your experience was, only sharing with my friends and family isn't wholly satisfying either; I *would* like feedback beyond simply "it's good, can I have more?"

Although I suppose that's the best comment you can get...

 

[the_bird]

We actually need more qualified judges to raise the standard even higher. Maybe we should do some training through this forum.

There's someone locally who may be trying to organize a BJCP training course through our new brewclub, which I will absolutely be a part of if and when it happens. I'd love to hear more about the process and how it is that you go about training yourself; I've seen glimpses of things like "add three drops of artificial butter extract to a pint of Coors Light to detect diacetyl."