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The sting of BJCP critique!

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Rudeboy said:
TOTALLY STOLEN FROM THE BOATHOUSE BREWERY

Top Ten Reasons Why I Hate Homebrew Competitions
posted by benjy
10. Turning in bottles renders you with no control over your beer after it leaves your hands.

9. Judging beer by a few sips doesn’t allow you to tell what the beer is really like. How can you judge a session beer by a few ounces?

8. Judges reward big beers and weird beers, so classic beers brewed strictly within the style suffer.

7. People “cheat” by entering beer brewed outside the style specifications and by entering many beers to increase their chances.

6. Competition brings out the geek/snob in some homebrewers.

5. Judges often criticize the beer without suggesting improvements.

4. Sweeter beers do better than properly attenuated beers because the judges go for the bigger body.

3. Taste is so subjective that the final winners can be selected based on judge’s individual preferences and bias.

2. You have to bottle beer.

And the Number One Reason…

1. We never win!
Hey Rudeboy -- I absolutely DARE you to take that to the next Edmonton Homebrewer's Guild. I don't think it would go over well. :D

Seriously, most of those sound like excuses and/or pretty cynical. There may be some truth to some of it, but the last reason pretty much sums up the whole list.

To be respectful to the judges that work really hard to be fair and helpful, I think we should also acknowledge that not ALL homebrew competitions can be characterized like this. The BJCP is a wonderful program, and I truly think most judges have the best intentions in mind. But perhaps the occasional bad experience sticks in peoples' minds more than the good experiences.
 
Shoot, Bobby, I certainly didn't read any whining in your posts. You have some legitimate questions and concerns. I hope the experience hasn't soured you on competitions, and I hope you stay involved with them one way or another.

Personally, I don't compete (mostly because I don't brew to style), but I judge often and even coordinated my club's competition this year. They are as much brewing conventions as anything else, and great fun. Check one out, sometime. :)


TL
 
FlyGuy said:
Hey Rudeboy -- I absolutely DARE you to take that to the next Edmonton Homebrewer's Guild. I don't think it would go over well. :D

Seriously, most of those sound like excuses and/or pretty cynical. There may be some truth to some of it, but the last reason pretty much sums up the whole list.

There is a good bit of truth to that list, though, especially with #8. Bigger beers tend to do better. It's tough when I hear a judging partner rave about a beer when I think it's too big for the style. It's a relief when I don't have that situation. Just as often, though, I have to remind myself to watch out for something too big.


TL
 
TexLaw said:
There is a good bit of truth to that list, though, especially with #8. Bigger beers tend to do better. It's tough when I hear a judging partner rave about a beer when I think it's too big for the style. It's a relief when I don't have that situation. Just as often, though, I have to remind myself to watch out for something too big.


TL

I've heard a lot of people talk about #8 - hell, Jamil Z, who wins more competitions that ANYBODY, talks about it all the time. If you're going to win, you've got to make a beer that really pushes the boundaries to stand out.

It's a shame - there are some styles, like an Imperial IPA or Imperial Stout or even something like a Belgian strong ale, where it seems that you would want to place a greater emphasis on making something that really pushed the envelope. But, there are a greater number of styles - things like an ESB - where really, the ideal to me is to make a classic example that hits the style on the nose, not something that necessarily breaks new ground. Some beers are defined at the core by their pushing of the boundaries (basically, anything "Imperial"); others, their "core element" is something else, and they ought to be judged based on that.
 
Yeah, I agree this is one in the list that has some truth to it.

You know what is paradoxical, though -- I bet if one were to look at the commercial examples for each style, then brew an exact replicate (or for the sake of being extreme, submit a de-labelled commercial example) for competition, chances are it wouldn't do very well.

Perhaps it is just a desperate attempt to break free of the constraints of stringent guidelines and award merit for innovation. But if that is the case, then why aren't there more categories where creativity and innovation can be used as the benchmarks to a good beer, rather than judging fit to a style? (That's a rhetorical question!)
 
I think Lambics taste like liquid poop, Many think they are great... I love overhopped pale Ales, many do not.......

Brew to your audience, If you are brewing to enjoy good beer who cares what a judge thinks?.. If you are brewing to competition, who cares what your friends think as long as a judge likes it.

Not all people who discover craft beers give up their BMC.

One reason I started Brewing was difficulty in finding commercial beers I like, and when I did they were expensive

Home brew is like Art and Movies, it's a matter of taste.. How many movies were praised by critics but flopped, how many were blasted as crap films but made hundreds of millions? Ever look at a work of Art and wonder why anyone would pay huge amounts of cash for something you wouldn't even hang above your toilet?

It's all about personal taste.
 
budbo said:
Home brew is like Art and Movies, it's a matter of taste.. How many movies were praised by critics but flopped, how many were blasted as crap films but made hundreds of millions? Ever look at a work of Art and wonder why anyone would pay huge amounts of cash for something you wouldn't even hang above your toilet?
It's all about personal taste.


I think that sums it up pretty well. And for the record, if I see a movie won a bunch of awards, I typically don't even bother watching it. Just about every award winning movie I have ever seen has been terrible.
 
FlyGuy said:
Perhaps it is just a desperate attempt to break free of the constraints of stringent guidelines and award merit for innovation. But if that is the case, then why aren't there more categories where creativity and innovation can be used as the benchmarks to a good beer, rather than judging fit to a style? (That's a rhetorical question!)

Rhetorical or not, I'll give you my answer.

First of all, the guidelines aren't all that stringent. In fact, I often wish they were a bit moreso. It's difficult to judge a beer against guidelines that say something like "[t]he best examples have some malt aroma, often (but not always) with a caramel quality." (8A - Standard/Ordinary bitter) What the heck does that mean? If I have an entry with a caramel quality, should it score higher for that reason, or does it really matter? If it has more caramel in the nose, is that better than less? What the flip is a "quality," anyhow?

Well, to answer my own question, you can't take each line of the guidelines as a checklist. You have to look at the whole description and know what this style of beer is about, and then you judge accordingly. The checklist might help you along, but it's a holistic thing. In the above example, the real sort of question is "does this beer's caramel nose (or lack thereof) work with the rest of the beer?"

There's your creativity. There's your craft. You can make an Ordinary Bitter with caramel in the nose and one without, and they can both score the same, high or low. In the end, you have to make a good beer, and that's a beer where all the parts work together well. "Within the style" might get you into the high 20s or low 30s, but it's that sort of synergy that gets you into the high 30s and 40s.

As for further creativity and innovation, it's something of a matter of entrant demand. Nearly all competing brewers want guidelines so that they can have some idea where they stand. They want something to tell them what a good beer is, and they want to work towards a more defined goal, and they want to remove subjective preferences where possible. Many judges want the same, as many truly are concerned about removing subjectivity where possible. Guidelines attempt to provide a level, defined playing field. As a specific example, the Dixie Cup gets many, many more entries in the defined categories, rather an in the Specialty category. This year, we also had an "It's Just Beer" category, where the guidelines were:

The only guideline is the beer’s pure drinking pleasure. In other words, we’ll judge it on how much of it we would want to drink and what Fred Eckhardt calls the “Come Hither Effect.” This is a quality that instinctively makes the drinker want to have more and/or yell across the room, “Come here! You’ve got to try some of this!” Simply put, it stimulates your sensibilities, titillates your taste buds, and draws you to another pint.

We got something like a dozen entries, if that, out of over 900.


TL
 
Tex, I'm curious about something.

Do you prefer the BJCP guidelines, or those from the Brewer's Association? The latter seem to me to be a little more, well, maybe dynamic? Maybe a little more representative of the beers that are being brewed today?
 
A prize winning dog still sh!ts on the rug while a mutt takes to housebreaking.

Good thing those BJCP guys aren't your friends. I take the compliments of my friends as much higher praise than any idiot I've never met.
 
Bird, if I'm judging or trying to hit style, I prefer BJCP guidelines because they are more detailed. The BA guidelines do describe more styles, but not in much detail.

My biggest issue is that the BJCP guidelines try to serve two, somewhat competing purposes. They try to both describe and pigeonhole all the beers in the world at the same time they try to provide guidelines for the ideal beer of each style. That's one of the reasons you get some of that goofy language, like what I quoted before.


TL
 
the_bird said:
I'd love to hear more about the process and how it is that you go about training yourself; I've seen glimpses of things like "add three drops of artificial butter extract to a pint of Coors Light to detect diacetyl."

This link was posted a while back here. I haven't tried any of them (who really want's to pony up for a sixer of Icehouse?), but they look like reasonable ways to get the off-flavors.

http://www.msu.edu/user/jundtdus/beer_doctoring.htm
 
Bobby_M said:
…I half regret starting this thread because I feel like I'm whining…

I appreciate your sharing. You want some whining???? Tune in the third week of December.

I have these babies sitting in some warehouse now waiting their fate on December 8th. This is being run by the local club (to which I don’t belong) and I hope the judges don’t subconsciously favor beers from people whose names they recognize.

I do have samples of each to follow up with after the comp. Last I heard there were just over 300 entries.

Competition.jpg
 
BierMuncher said:
I hope the judges don’t subconsciously favor beers from people whose names they recognize.

I would hope that the brews would be numbered and no names present during the judging. If they attached names to the brew that would be a very poorly run competition.
 
Ó Flannagáin said:
Why the hell do you have a michelob mixed pack, BeirMuncher?
heh...heh...

Actually got the box at a friends house. He’s a BMC guy and he bought this mixer for me cuz he knows I don’t care for rice beer.

They were actually pretty good brews. :D
 
budbo said:
Home brew is like Art and Movies, it's a matter of taste.. How many movies were praised by critics but flopped, how many were blasted as crap films but made hundreds of millions? Ever look at a work of Art and wonder why anyone would pay huge amounts of cash for something you wouldn't even hang above your toilet?

It's all about personal taste.


I agree with this 100%, but its funny how often this is said on homebrew forums and then in another thread someone will get really blasted if they make any hits towards liking a BMC beer.
 
Rudeboy said:
TOTALLY STOLEN FROM THE BOATHOUSE BREWERY

Top Ten Reasons Why I Hate Homebrew Competitions
posted by benjy


8. Judges reward big beers and weird beers, so classic beers brewed strictly within the style suffer.


This is true. I entered in a Kolsch into a comp lately and it came back to me with a score card that read and i quote: "too light, too crisp, slightly fruity. BAD"


Well there door knob, you just described a kolsch to me. Keep in mind it rated high in intial scoring by the head brewer but low from the public as they are searching for that out of the ordinary beer.
 
budbo said:
…Home brew is like Art and Movies, it's a matter of taste…

I’ve said it once and I’ll quote me again.

BierMuncher said:
It’s like those dog shows on TV. WTF are those judges really looking for when they grab the “fellas” on a Great Dane? And by the time you’ve had your hands wrapped around 18 nut-sacks, don’t they all start to feel the same? The same must be true with judging beer. Is the judge really as astute by the time they’re on their 9th entry as on their first?
 
Perhaps you, Bobby_M, as I, do not really fare well in 'competitions'. I have a killer hot boat, and have had and still own killer hot rods. But I do not show them, as I have no patience for what other's think -EVEN MY FRIENDS-for I am into what I take the time, effort and monetary input into, regardless if anyone, EVEN MY FRIENDS, can identify with or signify with an 'aye'. I cannot sit and polish and patiently enlighten others as to what I have done, when they are generally unable to even comprehend, let alone appreciate, what I have done....

Do what you like, as you are your own harshest critic. PERIOD. It's your time, your investment, and your taste that you are seeking to please, and deferring to others is just asking to be disappointed in humanity, as we know it.

WHY WASTE YOUR TIME AND SOUL?

You (and your direction) are all that really matters...
Hope This Helps....
Your Virgo friend. ;)
 
GaryA said:
... If they attached names to the brew that would be a very poorly run competition.

BJCP events are blind. The judges don't know whose beers belong to whom.

I've entered competitions in the past and plan to again in the future. I value the critiques I get from impartial folks who have more experince than I do and have no idea who I am. In the competition sponsored by the local club here (of which I am not a member) the judges names are on the scoresheets and I recognize some of the names - brewers whose names I know and whose opinions I respect. Kind of like having the local versions of Randy Mosher, John Palmer, Jami Z. or Ray Daniels giving you feedback.
:rockin:

I honestly believe the feedback from competitions - especially the first 3-4 I entered - helped me improve my beers. However, at the end of the day, it's your beer. Even if some BJCP judge may not give it 43 points out of 50, as long as you enjoy it, what else matters? I still brew some beers that I know would not do so hot in a BJCP competition. But I still like 'em!:)

My advice: if you're even fleetingly toying with the subconscious thought of entering a BJCP competition - do it! I think you may find it somewhat rewarding at the very least. Just don't take it personally.
:mug:
 
I think you're basically a beer wench. Still got that costume from Halloween?

I just got an email from one of the guys at the club about a competition being held this weekend, not too far from here. Looks like they are still looking for some apprentice judges. Anyone know if you need to have *any* qualifications to sit in this capacity? (you'd be paired with people who have more experience).

I think I'll send them an email and ask...
 
I always thought it would be neat to take the same beer and submit it under 2 or 3 different categories, I wonder if the judges would even notice. I know the beer would be scored differently based on how well it fits the style, but it might be fun just to try.
 
BierMuncher said:
Slightly :off:

What does a steward do at these comps? I've been approached to help out and am thinking about it.

You may pull the entries for the flight, which is just a matter of finding them in the box and putting them in a cooler or something (supplied by the competition). You write the entry numbers on plastic cups. You pour the beer (just a couple ounces or so, at least at first). You collect the score sheets from the judges and check their arithmetic (which may tend to be a little off as the flight goes on) and record the scores onto the flight summary sheet. You turn the paperwork in after the flight. You help with the cleanup after the flight (not that it's much). Basically, you help the flight move along (and it really does help!)

If you have a pair of judges that aren't jerks, they will help you along with your stewarding duties during the flight. They really ought to help out with the cleanup, although some judges think their asses weigh a ton and just wander off with their noses in the air, all pleased with themselves for completing a flight.

In almost every case, you get to sample the entries along with the judges. You have to be careful, though. Especially if there is a "mini-best-of-show" round, you may have to save quite a bit of the beer for later.

A steward is a huge help during a flight, and it's a great way to get in on a judging round without the work of judging!


TL
 
the_bird said:
I think you're basically a beer wench. Still got that costume from Halloween?

I just got an email from one of the guys at the club about a competition being held this weekend, not too far from here. Looks like they are still looking for some apprentice judges. Anyone know if you need to have *any* qualifications to sit in this capacity? (you'd be paired with people who have more experience).

I think I'll send them an email and ask...

You should be paired up with a BJCP judge, if you aren't one and you aren't otherwise qualified (i.e., commercial brewer or well known "beer celebrity"). If they need stewards, too, you really should steward a flight before judging one, just to see how it all goes. Of course, if they really need judges, jump in with both feet.


TL
 
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