The Saison Thread

[drgarage1]

I guess my comment resulted in thread deletion. Too bad.

:facepalm:

 

[masterovkhaos]

http://www.tampabay.com/things-to-do/food/spirits/no-need-to-fear-light-strike-in-beer/2276104

Lol

 

[drgarage1]

http://www.tampabay.com/things-to-do/food/spirits/no-need-to-fear-light-strike-in-beer/2276104

Lol

No cure for stupid

 

[libbey]

Not sure if this one belongs here or not but another tasty beer from Oddwood

Taming the Savage Heart - tart blonde ale.

A: The beer pours a clear golden hue. Small cap of head that settles quickly.

S: Lemon rinds and mineral notes. Light bisquit notes. Not sure if this saw oak but I'm not getting any. Straddling the line Berliner and tart saison.

T/M: The taste follows suit. Lovely lemon zest with a snappy tart finish. Same awesome mineral notes I got from their Saison. Pretty dry finish makes you want to keep going back for more.

O: Overall this is another really tasty beer from Oddwood. Not on the same level as the saison but still hyper crushable. A perfect finish after finishing up mowing my lawn.

 

[Calcifer]

Saison Sunday!

This is fantastic. Bright lemon/orange and good wine notes, bit of funk, perfect mouthfeel. Could crush this all summer long at 4.5%.

 

[ISO Valeric]

Right. My issue with the canned saisons is that they are bad saisons -- as are WAY too many of those being made by large craft brewers. Stone and Anchor saisons are unbelievably bad. They are in bottles. The issue is the beer, not the delivery mechanism.

There's more than one reason why Stone and Anchor saisons aren't the greatest. However, the "delivery mechanism" is ONE of the reasons and here's why:

When you force carb a beer (and package it in cans OR bottles), you can only achieve about 2.7 volumes of CO2. The classic, old school Dupont/Blaugies type of saison has about 4 volumes of CO2 and that's a big part of what gives its character. This can only be achieved with bottle conditioning. Force carbed saisons are under carbed saisons. The can vs bottle issue is kind of a red herring -- the bottle conditioning's the thing.

This is also why dupont and blaugies on draft kinda sucks -- draft systems can't pour at 4 volumes of CO2, so they undercarb the draft versions and everything about the beer feels wrong. This style of beer is designed to be delivered through a high carb, bottle conditioned bottle.

 

[JCastle1]

Is it possible to "can-condition"? I really love Stillwater Classique, never felt like it's undercarbed IMO.

 

[ISO Valeric]

Is it possible to "can-condition"? I really love Stillwater Classique, never felt like it's undercarbed IMO.

it's totally possible but not generally done. cans aren't rated for high pressure anyway.

i'm not saying the only good kind of saison is high carb... just that it's a particular hallmark of the classic versions. dupont and blaugies will gush when opened warm...

 

[rjose]

Very nice, wish there was just a touch more brett. Very tasty, dry, citrus & lime, floral, nice hop notes.

 

[Thorpe]

There's more than one reason why Stone and Anchor saisons aren't the greatest. However, the "delivery mechanism" is ONE of the reasons and here's why:

When you force carb a beer (and package it in cans OR bottles), you can only achieve about 2.7 volumes of CO2. The classic, old school Dupont/Blaugies type of saison has about 4 volumes of CO2 and that's a big part of what gives its character. This can only be achieved with bottle conditioning. Force carbed saisons are under carbed saisons. The can vs bottle issue is kind of a red herring -- the bottle conditioning's the thing.

This is also why dupont and blaugies on draft kinda sucks -- draft systems can't pour at 4 volumes of CO2, so they undercarb the draft versions and everything about the beer feels wrong. This style of beer is designed to be delivered through a high carb, bottle conditioned bottle.

High carbonation is great, but Anchor and Stone's saisons would still only be mediocre at best even if carbed to the level you're describing. Undercarbed Dupont is far better than those beers even at less-than-ideal carbonation.

Also, when done right, Dupont on tap is absolutely divine. With proper line length and flow-control faucets, draft saisons can every bit as masterful as bottle-conditioned versions.

 

[TheMitz]

Also, when done right, Dupont on tap is absolutely divine. With proper line length and flow-control faucets, draft saisons can every bit as masterful as bottle-conditioned versions.

This. Was just about to post the same thing. I just had Dupont on draft in Europe and it was ******* amazing.

 

[tosh1]

Not being an arse, but why are we even thinking of comparing Stone or Allagash to Dupont? Let's not.

 

[tosh1]

Swedish Saison. Way better than Allagash or Stone, but not Brilliant.

Not horrid, not fantastic. Bang in the middle of those 2 extremes.

 

[JBP]

comparing Stone or Allagash to Dupont? Let's not.

/homer hat on

Assuming you meant Anchor (as mentioned by Thorpe429) not Allagash Allagash makes a damn great saison, be it the base beer in 4-packs or the brett/oaked variations.

/end homerism

 

[tosh1]

/homer hat on

Assuming you meant Anchor (as mentioned by Thorpe429) not Allagash Allagash makes a damn great saison, be it the base beer in 4-packs or the brett/oaked variations.

/end homerism

Aye. Have enjoyed Allagash Saisons. Drunk/wrong as charged.

 

[ISO Valeric]

Also, when done right, Dupont on tap is absolutely divine. With proper line length and flow-control faucets, draft saisons can every bit as masterful as bottle-conditioned versions.

I agree it can still be a good beer on tap, it's just an entirely different beer. To me there's nothing like that snappy crispness and rocky head that comes from 4 volumes of carbonation. No matter how perfect the draft system, it can't make up for the fact that they used less priming sugar in the keg.

It's not just dupont, there are tons of highly carbed belgian beers that taste best from the bottle... and a lot of them are available exclusively in bottles for this reason.

 

[Thorpe]

I agree it can still be a good beer on tap, it's just an entirely different beer. To me there's nothing like that snappy crispness and rocky head that comes from 4 volumes of carbonation. No matter how perfect the draft system, it can't make up for the fact that they used less priming sugar in the keg.

It's not just dupont, there are tons of highly carbed belgian beers that taste best from the bottle... and a lot of them are available exclusively in bottles for this reason.

The perfect draft system allows the beer to be poured with 4 volumes of carbonation. There's no reason you can't use additional carbonation to get the keg carbonation up higher. I have it on tap at home and serve it at what should be around 3.5 volumes. Plenty of people have argued over bottle conditioning carbonation versus force carbonation and I'm not interested in getting into that, but at the end of the day, the draft version can be, at the worst, very, very similar to the bottled version. (Emphasis on can given that, as you mentioned, the beer is "undercarbonated" when kegged to account for what most systems can handle.)

 

[ISO Valeric]

that's all well and good, except that dupont doesn't package it with 4 volumes.

 

[Thorpe]

The perfect draft system allows the beer to be poured with 4 volumes of carbonation. There's no reason you can't use additional carbonation to get the keg carbonation up higher. I have it on tap at home and serve it at what should be around 3.5 volumes. Plenty of people have argued over bottle conditioning carbonation versus force carbonation and I'm not interested in getting into that, but at the end of the day, the draft version can be, at the worst, very, very similar to the bottled version. (Emphasis on can given that, as you mentioned, the beer is "undercarbonated" when kegged to account for what most systems can handle.)

that's all well and good, except that dupont doesn't package it with 4 volumes.

Adding carbonation to a keg is easy. It doesn't matter if they package it flat or at 2 volumes, it's easy to bump it to 3.0, 3.5, or 4.0 volumes.

 

[quirkzoo1]

There's more than one reason why Stone and Anchor saisons aren't the greatest. However, the "delivery mechanism" is ONE of the reasons and here's why:

When you force carb a beer (and package it in cans OR bottles), you can only achieve about 2.7 volumes of CO2. The classic, old school Dupont/Blaugies type of saison has about 4 volumes of CO2 and that's a big part of what gives its character. This can only be achieved with bottle conditioning. Force carbed saisons are under carbed saisons. The can vs bottle issue is kind of a red herring -- the bottle conditioning's the thing.

This is also why dupont and blaugies on draft kinda sucks -- draft systems can't pour at 4 volumes of CO2, so they undercarb the draft versions and everything about the beer feels wrong. This style of beer is designed to be delivered through a high carb, bottle conditioned bottle.

Where are you getting this information? That seems like a rather arbitrary limitation, obviously there would be some lost carbonation in the bottling process but it seems like you should be able to compensate for that by slightly over-carbonating the beer before bottling. Perhaps you were referring to the particular types of bottles they use that aren't rate to handle that level of carbonation?

Is it possible to "can-condition"? I really love Stillwater Classique, never felt like it's undercarbed IMO.

yes, Strange Land Brewing in Austin Texas can conditions their beer.

http://thebeerdiaries.tv/the-shows/where-are-they-now-strange-land-brewery/

at 4:10 They say they are the first in the world (that they are aware of) that can conditions. I only happen to know this because a nice older lady I know sent me the video because her nephew is one of the brewers and she knows I like beer.

 

[ISO Valeric]

Adding carbonation to a keg is easy. It doesn't matter if they package it flat or at 2 volumes, it's easy to bump it to 3.0, 3.5, or 4.0 volumes.

But it's not as simple as all that; you can't just serve any beer at any carb level you want. Sure you can increase the pressure on the draft line, but it takes a long time for that added CO2 pressure to actually force more gas to dissolve into the liquid through increased head pressure alone. A bar needs to be able to tap the keg and just pour away. I guess if you're talking about a home consumption situation where you can tap the keg and let it come up to carb for 3 days then you could do it, but for any bar this is impossible.

Where are you getting this information? That seems like a rather arbitrary limitation, obviously there would be some lost carbonation in the bottling process but it seems like you should be able to compensate for that by slightly over-carbonating the beer before bottling.

If you force carb the beer to 4 volumes in the bright tank and then try to can or bottle, you get a huge amount of foam breaking out of the can. It's next to impossible to get a good fill level. You'd see half empty bottles on the shelves. The technology just doesn't work with that much carbonation.

 

[Thorpe]

But it's not as simple as all that; you can't just serve any beer at any carb level you want. Sure you can increase the pressure on the draft line, but it takes a long time for that added CO2 pressure to actually force more gas to dissolve into the liquid through increased head pressure alone. A bar needs to be able to tap the keg and just pour away. I guess if you're talking about a home consumption situation where you can tap the keg and let it come up to carb for 3 days then you could do it, but for any bar this is impossible.



If you force carb the beer to 4 volumes in the bright tank and then try to can or bottle, you get a huge amount of foam breaking out of the can. It's next to impossible to get a good fill level. You'd see half empty bottles on the shelves. The technology just doesn't work with that much carbonation.

Even a bar can handle that. If a bar really feels like adding the extra CO2, it's pretty damn easy to hook up a separate CO2 tank to a keg for a few days to get it to the desired level.

 

[iong516]

Puking rainbows, my lawd I love BA saisons

 

[thunderbirdesq]

Puking rainbows, my lawd I love BA saisons

Really need to get my hands on one of these. One F&M bottle I haven't been lucky enough to try. How's this holding up? 2014 right?

 

[rjose]

Here's a question, if it's been asked before sorry.

If you only have 1 bottle of something and aren't extremely likely to get another, do you drink it fresh or do you cellar it for a while? If cellar, how long? Do brett, lacto, wild yeast, etc. play a factor in that decision?

 

[thunderbirdesq]

Here's a question, if it's been asked before sorry.

If you only have 1 bottle of something and aren't extremely likely to get another, do you drink it fresh or do you cellar it for a while? If cellar, how long? Do brett, lacto, wild yeast, etc. play a factor in that decision?

I try to hang onto saisons for at least 6months to a year if I know it's all brett, but if I haven't had it before and there isn't any report of off flavors or green-ness then I just drink the bastards. If I know lacto/fruit is involved I am more likely to open it fresh. I hate 1 bottle limits personally I like to buy in twos just so I can see how funk and yeast develop.

 

[rjose]

Floral, sweet apple, dry grape

 

[Snarf1]

Now I remember why I left those groups. I dared mention I'd had some really ****** up St S beers when he was talking about washing yeast and he had a man baby internet meltdown on me.

Ha! I guess I screenshotted and uploaded it.

 

[capnmike]

I am an admitted saison newb, but holy crap is Prairie Standard delicious!!

 

[TheMitz]

This is great. 7/15/2015 Das Wunderkind.

Aroma is lemons, oranges and earthiness. Taste is mineral, tart, dry with honeydew, tangerine with a touch of oak. A very well rounded beer.