The Saison Thread

[ChaQuiseman]

I've gotten much better head retention since I started adding zinc. Also the pH of the mash and sparge will affect foam stability.

I've heard plenty of anecdotes about zinc being the only non-wort-provided-nutrient that yeast needs outside of oxygen and that proprietary yeast nutrient is unnecessary, but actual discussion of this topic never seems to happen all that much.

For the sake of my curiosity - are you using a yeast nutrient which contains zinc, or dosing your wort with only zinc?

Follow up question - if you're dosing with just zinc, what's your delivery mechanism? Zinc sulfate? Something else?

 

[JCastle1]

I've heard plenty of anecdotes about zinc being the only non-wort-provided-nutrient that yeast needs outside of oxygen and that proprietary yeast nutrient is unnecessary, but actual discussion of this topic never seems to happen all that much.

For the sake of my curiosity - are you using a yeast nutrient which contains zinc, or dosing your wort with only zinc?

Follow up question - if you're dosing with just zinc, what's your delivery mechanism? Zinc sulfate? Something else?

https://www.mbaa.com/education/webinars/Pages/ImportanceOfZinc.aspx

There was also an accompanying PDF, I can try to find it later. Basic gist of it was healthier/quicker fermentations and more generations. The ideal way according to the presenter is to use it on the cold side. I use plain-ass zinc tablets from the pharmacy, I don't know if they come in the form of zinc sulfate to be honest.

 

[ChaQuiseman]

https://www.mbaa.com/education/webinars/Pages/ImportanceOfZinc.aspx

There was also an accompanying PDF, I can try to find it later. Basic gist of it was healthier/quicker fermentations and more generations. The ideal way according to the presenter is to use it on the cold side. I use plain-ass zinc tablets from the pharmacy, I don't know if they come in the form of zinc sulfate to be honest.

Hot damn, you come prepared with a seminar and everything. Thank you, sir!

 

[capnmike]

Nooooooooooooooooooo

 

[Thorpe]

Pours light gold with a stark white head that dissipates pretty quickly. On the nose you get a bit of pear and white wine with a touch of tartness. A bit of grain and a light spicy yeast character come through as well. As with most of their beers in the style, this one is extremely dry. Refreshing and easy to drink. Flavor has more of a lemon character with notes of the pear and white wine qualities.

I have the same head retention qualities in some of my beers. I try to combat it with higher carbonation levels and even then it doesn't always work out. I think the oak and the brett have a negative impact on head retention sometimes that you just can't get around.

Killer stuff either way.

Holy Mountain - The Goat

Anecdotally, at least in my experience, there seems to be some validity to Brett and mixed fermentation beers having ****** head retention compared to clean beers. I've frequently split a batch and fermented half with my mixed culture and the other half with a straight saison strain (or blend of saison strains) and then both beers look similar when first poured but then the retention not he mixed culture is only decent while the straight-Sacch. version seems to have amazing head retention and lacing.

 

[ChaQuiseman]

Anecdotally, at least in my experience, there seems to be some validity to Brett and mixed fermentation beers having ****** head retention compared to clean beers. I've frequently split a batch and fermented half with my mixed culture and the other half with a straight saison strain (or blend of saison strains) and then both beers look similar when first poured but then the retention not he mixed culture is only decent while the straight-Sacch. version seems to have amazing head retention and lacing.

Thinking more about it, that makes a lot of sense considering how much brett likes long-chain sugars and doesn't produce glycerol, both of which contribute heavily to head retention. Hadn't really thought much about that before now, but thinking back, I've never had much head retention in anything I've brewed with brett.

I'd bet that any of the aforementioned saison breweries with "god-tier head retention," who use Brett, are blending with "clean" beer exactly as you described.

 

[Thorpe]

Thinking more about it, that makes a lot of sense considering how much brett likes long-chain sugars and doesn't produce glycerol, both of which contribute heavily to head retention. Hadn't really thought much about that before now, but thinking back, I've never had much head retention in anything I've brewed with brett.

I'd bet that any of the aforementioned saison breweries with "god-tier head retention," who use Brett, are blending with "clean" beer exactly as you described.

Also wonder whether it might make a difference if you’re just doing secondary with a mixed culture versus everything in primary. If the former and bottling relatively quickly, then maybe you get the heavy retention early in the “bottle life” and then that fades over time? We should experiment!

 

[More Betterness]

Not a saison per se.. But figured those in this thread would appreciate it more than most! Been too long since I’ve seen this one in bottles!

 

[wuntrikpony]

Not a saison per se.. But figured those in this thread would appreciate it more than most! Been too long since I’ve seen this one in bottles!

Taras Boulba should have its own thread.

 

[ElkSherpa1]

Several, simple factors contribute to head retention. Grain choice, mash schedule, and hopping rate/schedule. High protein grain, typically unmalted, and hopping rates higher than you'd imagine for saison-ish beers will keep that fluff in the cup. Also, if you're willing to take the time, a protein rest can assist in clinging yer foam too. I can't attest to brettanomyces adversely impacting head retention, but lactic acid bacteria will absolutely diminish foam stability.

 

[Gus13]

Good talk about head retention fellas! I agree that in my own brewing I've seen side by side beers of same grist and primary fermentation but then one dosed with brett. Each time, the brett beer has fair to poor head retention and the sacc only will have fluffy peaks that last the whole glass. I've seen some good results carbonating to 3.5 Vol but even then it doesn't always fix the problem. I'm assuming it does have to do with what the LAB and brett are able to consume versus the sacc.

I have seen better head retention in the beers that I treat the water on. I now use sulfate and chloride additions as well as a little epsom salt for yeast health. I typically go for a 1:1 ration on the sulfate and chloride. I'd really like to know how folks like HF are able to pull off whip cream heads and still have acidity and brett present in their beers.

Edit: I have also seen great results with higher hopping rates. Lower AA hops and more of them have helped I believe with head retention.

 

[FTowne1]

Several, simple factors contribute to head retention. Grain choice, mash schedule, and hopping rate/schedule. High protein grain, typically unmalted, and hopping rates higher than you'd imagine for saison-ish beers will keep that fluff in the cup. Also, if you're willing to take the time, a protein rest can assist in clinging yer foam too. I can't attest to brettanomyces adversely impacting head retention, but lactic acid bacteria will absolutely diminish foam stability.

I always used at least 30% wheat in the mash bill for all my saisons, and always ended up with good head retention. Never really put much thought in to other aspects, just figured it was from the high percentage of wheat.

edit: here's an old pic

Saison fermented with Wyeast 3724 and Omega Brett C. Bottled last October 20th.

 

[Tlo4sho]

Good talk about head retention fellas!

Glad I asked the question! Lots of good discussion and info for sure.

 

[PurityControl88]

So, I search the forum to see if any topis had discussed St. Somewhere Brewing in Tarpon Springs, FL. Everything said so far seemed to be negative, when was the last time people had this and what were they drinking? I grabbed a bottle of the Saint Athene this week that wound up being a 2015, and it was quite good- not mind blowing but was intrigued to try more. Would love some thoughts from those who have had more- and know if they were drinking the bottles new.

Not sure how I missed this post originally. They used to distribute to NE years ago and didn't do so well. However, the stuff we've gotten from them these last few years has been on point. Especially awesome is their collaboration w Yazoo brewing, tons of citrus and a really unique funk. There's still some on the shelf if anybody here would like some!
https://www.sheltonbrothers.com/beers/saint-somewhereyazoo-brewing-embrasseur-la-sint/

Red wine barrel aged saison from South Dakota. It’s delicious, you really must try it.

See, it’s a poorly made wine joke. Must is what you have after crushing wine grapes

I keep seeing this around town. Will have to try!

 

[andrewdrinks]

I could really go for one of these about now


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[Gus13]

For those that homebrew or just would be interested in reading. This is a really cool group project that the Saison, Bière de Garde, and Farmhouse Ale Appreciation Society over on Facebook came up with. We did a group vote to design a recipe and some pro brewers signed up to brew it. I really like the recipe and think it will play nicely with some brett strains and some Bière de Coupage blending. Check it out and let me know if anyone brews it!

http://www.thefarmhouseobsession.com/2018/06/linternationale-homebrew-recipe.html

 

[ChaQuiseman]

For those that homebrew or just would be interested in reading. This is a really cool group project that the Saison, Bière de Garde, and Farmhouse Ale Appreciation Society over on Facebook came up with. We did a group vote to design a recipe and some pro brewers signed up to brew it. I really like the recipe and think it will play nicely with some brett strains and some Bière de Coupage blending. Check it out and let me know if anyone brews it!

http://www.thefarmhouseobsession.com/2018/06/linternationale-homebrew-recipe.html

Already bookmarked it and started daydreaming about what yeast/brett I want to throw at it.

 

[Gus13]

Already bookmarked it and started daydreaming about what yeast/brett I want to throw at it.

I've got a portion of the original fermented with Wallonian 3 I'm going to package soon. Some I'm going to dose with Morpheus Brett at bottling.

 

[coldcrash1]

For those that homebrew or just would be interested in reading. This is a really cool group project that the Saison, Bière de Garde, and Farmhouse Ale Appreciation Society over on Facebook came up with. We did a group vote to design a recipe and some pro brewers signed up to brew it. I really like the recipe and think it will play nicely with some brett strains and some Bière de Coupage blending. Check it out and let me know if anyone brews it!

http://www.thefarmhouseobsession.com/2018/06/linternationale-homebrew-recipe.html

Knocked out a version of this yesterday.

Pitched wlp565. Will probably keg this batch clean for quick consumption, and do a second batch on my house mixed culture.

The color of this wort running off into the kettle was very sexy!

 

[Gonzoillini1]

Knocked out a version of this yesterday.

Pitched wlp565. Will probably keg this batch clean for quick consumption, and do a second batch on my house mixed culture.

The color of this wort running off into the kettle was very sexy!

Almost looked like a turbid mash right? I couldn't believe how intense the amount of hopping impacted the wort, and having tried two homebrewed versions so far I think it's made a huge difference compared to using higher alpha in a lower quantity.

 

[Thorpe]

I've got a portion of the original fermented with Wallonian 3 I'm going to package soon. Some I'm going to dose with Morpheus Brett at bottling.

Did you package the Wallonian 3 yet? I'm curious about the flavor profile and attenuation for that one as I just bought a vial to try out.

 

[coldcrash1]

Almost looked like a turbid mash right? I couldn't believe how intense the amount of hopping impacted the wort, and having tried two homebrewed versions so far I think it's made a huge difference compared to using higher alpha in a lower quantity.

Agreed. I’m currently drinking through a Grisette hopped exclusively w sub-2% AA Hersbrucker and Strisslespalt, and a **** ton of it. That hopping rate definitely makes a huge difference in almost every aspect ofthe finished beer

 

[tosh1]

Well as saisons go, this was not too shabby at all

 

[JCastle1]

For those that homebrew or just would be interested in reading. This is a really cool group project that the Saison, Bière de Garde, and Farmhouse Ale Appreciation Society over on Facebook came up with. We did a group vote to design a recipe and some pro brewers signed up to brew it. I really like the recipe and think it will play nicely with some brett strains and some Bière de Coupage blending. Check it out and let me know if anyone brews it!

http://www.thefarmhouseobsession.com/2018/06/linternationale-homebrew-recipe.html

The version brewed in Argentina is really tasty. I've added this one to my to-brew list.

 

[MooseLang]

Classique is back! I guess it took Stillwater a year to “revamp” it by making it a 4 pack of 12 oz cans for $9 instead of a 6 pack for $12. Oh well. Still love it.


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[jbeezification1]

Anyone willing to send me some Classique? I can send Live Oak or $$$$.

 

[nachojon]

2017 bottle rocked.

 

[PurityControl88]

2017 bottle rocked.

I regretfully opened one of these towards the end of a bottle share recently. Should have saved it for a fresh palate and a slow afternoon.

 

[jbeezification1]

Finally getting into this Classique. It’s been a while but damn this is as good as I remembered. Thanks again MooseLang for the hook up.

 

[PurityControl88]

Friday night. How I'm living.