the necessity of starters (or lack thereof?)

[toddouglas]

I've been brewing for about a year now and made the transition to all grain brewing a couple of months ago. Over the past few weeks, I've been trying to educate myself on the hows and whys of making starters. Up to now, I have never made a starter, but have rather used single packs of dry yeast, and more recently, Wyeast. But I keep getting back to this problem - when I plug my numbers into a starter calculator, it almost always tells me I'm significantly underpitching. Even the Wyeast website says I need to make starters given my circumstances (high gravity beer, high OG, etc.). But using the single packets has always gotten me to my desired FG. I'll give you a couple of examples. I'm currently working on a pumpkin ale. Started out at 1.094, and using Wyeast 1028 without making a starter, I'm already at 1.022 in five days, and fermentation hasn't even stopped yet. Another example: brewed a Belgian Dubbel, and a single packet of Wyeast 3787 took it from 1.074 to 1.005 in about two weeks. And finally, brewed an IPA with T-58, which took about 20 days to get from 1.067 to 1.016. In each case, the batches have been around 5 1/2 gallons. I'm hitting my FG goals, but the calculators say I'm underpitching. Can someone please explain this? Are there other benefits to making starters that suggest I should be making them even though I'm getting these results? Thanks in advance for any guidance!

 

[ong]

A single packet of dry yeast has about 2x the cells of a fresh pouch/vial of liquid, so most beers are fine with one packet of dry.

Underpitching with dry or liquid certainly doesn't guarantee a bad beer. It's just one of the factors. If you're striving for excellent beer, you'll want to oxygenate, pitch large healthy starters, keeps temps tightly controlled, etc., etc. But no one says you "have to."

 

[jerbrew]

I like to harvest yeast from my starter prior to pitching in order to have it available for a few generations in my fridge. Less expensive and whatnot but mostly I just like knowing what I have on hand and only having to stop and buy grain when I want to brew. It really just helps ensure you have a lot of healthy yeast when you pitch. reduces lag time and helps counter any crazy events the yeast may have suffered through (high temps, long time on the shelf, etc.). I don't pay very much attention to the exact number calculators give me. I make about a 2 L starter of 1.040 ish wort a couple days before pull off a pint into a mason jar and pitch the rest. It works and is easy.

I didn't make a starter for about 2 years and never had a problem maybe that's luck maybe that's because I live in the same city as white labs and my yeast is fresh? IDK, but I do know my beer is coming out great and if I can easily take something that could be a problem such as an unhealthy yeast pitch and mitigate it I'm going to do it.

 

[brewcat]

Underpitching can lead to more esters, it doesn't necessarily mean the yeast won't finish. Basically it can lead to off flavors.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Most will say always make a starter.I have never actually made one.Dry yeast goes in the fermenter dry and liquid,the few times I've used them,have never let me down with one packet in 5 gallons.Thats for the first batch,then reuse that yeast cake which makes more yeast than I know what to do with.My beers are always 1.060 and under or so.

 

[Sadu]

20 days to reach fg seems a little slow to me. My last 1.072 IPA took 5 days to get to 1.010 and I pitched used slurry for that batch so it cost $0 and was super easy. I use a vitality starter on this and most brews which is a simple extra step to get the yeast in optimal condition before pitching. Your beer may still taste great but it may come out even better by pitching higher. I think it is worth trying.

Even if there are no off flavours in your IPA the hop aroma will be fading away. My IPA will have been dry hopped, crash cooled and in the bottle for a week by the 20 day mark, hopefully nice and fresh.

 

[stratslinger]

Pitching a healthy, and active, starter can significantly reduce the lag phase of fermentation, which has the dual benefit of speeding up your overall fermentation timeline and stressing the yeast less, which typically results in reduced esters...

I've heard of underpitching leading to problems reaching FG, but I've never actually seen it and suspect that it'd require a really significant underpitch.

However, as folks have also said, not using a starter doesn't necessarily mean a bad beer. I've done a couple side-by-side experiments with a buddy of mine where we put up a single-smack-pack pitch against a Mr Malty-proscribed starter, and noticed only very marginal differences between the two (and neither of us could pick out a clearly "better" one in any of our tests)...

 

[toddouglas]

Thanks for all the great insights, everyone! I just got my stir plate & flask today, so I'm going to begin to experiment with starters on my next batch.

 

[mattdee1]

In my experience thus far, the primary benefit of starters has not been "better beer," but rather, the ability to propagate a single pack of liquid yeast by means of harvesting some of the starter before pitching.

I guess it could be argued that it's a lot of effort just to avoid paying for yeast, but my LHBS only has a few choices of liquid yeast, and ordering them in the mail is pricey, not to mention, damaging to the yeast.

 

[ericbw]

It really has more to do with aromas than anything else, but a little to do with the possibility of infections.

When we pitch yeast, they reproduce to have enough to ferment the full batch. As it reproduces, it creates things that come out as aromas and flavors (I think mostly aroma, but whatever) (These are esters and phenols.) So the smaller your pitch, the more it has to reproduce, which means that there are more of those aromas. Smaller pitch = more aromas. This is a generality.

The beers and yeasts you mention are used because of their aromas - fruity, funky, Belgian-y. You want more of the flavors and aromas that come out. If you were making a cream ale, then those would be called "off flavors." Same thing with hefe - I love banana scented hefes, and some people love the clove smell. But in an American amber, that would be wrong.

Same as when you ferment really hot to make an awesome saison. In a different beer, that would be an off flavor.

So in your case, yes, you are getting full attenuation AND you're making beers that lend themselves to more aromas. They're partly covered by the alcohol level as well. It works for you because of the kind of beers you're making.

The other reason for a bigger pitch is to get the yeast to get started quicker to beat out any other competing micro-organisms. If the yeast is sleeping, it takes a little longer to get started, while the bacteria and yeast in the air were already awake and looking for food. A starter is a large quantity of yeast that's ready to go, so it starts a little faster.

So you have to weigh the risks of potential contamination against the kind of beer you want.

HOWEVER, I do think that calculators always say you need more yeast. I think they overestimate how fast yeast dies off. The packs are supposed to be a pitchable quantity.

 

[Bassman2003]

Eric said it all. As you brew more you learn that yeast becomes a strategy - under pitch hefes, fully pitch lagers etc... I am a big fan of making the right sized starters and of starters in general. I always make them the night before and pitch them when activity is high. The short lag time is important on the homebrew level as our exposure to the elements is much greater than pro breweries.

I pressure can starter wort once a year so making a starter is very quick and easy.

 

[ericbw]

I have frozen wort before to use for starters, but usually it is easy enough to add a few ounces to the flask and boil it. But it would be great to crack open sterile wort and pour it in!

 

[Bassman2003]

It is quite simple once you get a pressure cooker. I make a small batch of 1.070 wort, put it in mason jars (seven at a time) and cook it for 15 minutes once it reaches pressure. The 1.070 wort allows me to combine it with a bottle of water to get a 2-liter starter out of one mason jar.

Freezing is not recommended as wort is a low acid food which can harbor botulism.

 

[homemaltster]

It is quite simple once you get a pressure cooker. I make a small batch of 1.070 wort, put it in mason jars (seven at a time) and cook it for 15 minutes once it reaches pressure. The 1.070 wort allows me to combine it with a bottle of water to get a 2-liter starter out of one mason jar.

Freezing is not recommended as wort is a low acid food which can harbor botulism.

Wouldn't the high temps of the pressure cooker kill the yeast?

 

[TxBigHops]

Wouldn't the high temps of the pressure cooker kill the yeast?

At that point, it's just wort. He hasn't pitched the yeast yet.

 

[JonP121]

Wouldn't the high temps of the pressure cooker kill the yeast?

You are just "cooking" the wort before pitching to sterilize it for long term storage. Then, when you want to use it, you open it up, pitch and make your starter. Similar to the canned starter wort that is being sold now.

 

[pauljacks]

I am a big believer in starters. When I first started brewing, I sometimes had issues with slow fermentations. After I switched to starters, I never had that problem again. In my experience, I've gotten much more vigorous fermentations using starters than without. Also, as noted in several posts above, you greatly reduce your risk of "underpitching," and, concomitantly, the anxiety that goes along with that situation! I haven't really used dry yeast much, but must admit that I am envious of people who do, since dry yeasts seem to be so much more simple to use.

 

[baslug]

As it reproduces, it creates things that come out as aromas and flavors

wink, wink... nudge, nudge... say no more

 

[TxBigHops]

I am a big believer in starters. When I first started brewing, I sometimes had issues with slow fermentations. After I switched to starters, I never had that problem again. In my experience, I've gotten much more vigorous fermentations using starters than without. Also, as noted in several posts above, you greatly reduce your risk of "underpitching," and, concomitantly, the anxiety that goes along with that situation! I haven't really used dry yeast much, but must admit that I am envious of people who do, since dry yeasts seem to be so much more simple to use.

I've used tons of dry yeast. But I just did my first starter two weeks ago. I had been putting it off dreading all the extra work. But I'm now making 10-15 gallon batches, so it makes sense to cut costs by building starters. Honestly, I was amazed that it really isn't any harder than it is. Using dry yeast requires pretty much the same process - boil water to sterilize, cool it, sprinkle the dry yeast (or pitch liquid) and wait for it to come back to life, then pitch into your wort. There's just a longer waiting period for the starter and you have to do it a day or so before you brew. That's about it. For anyone who has been putting off making starters - don't.

 

[toddouglas]

Wow, Eric, thanks for going into so much detail. Super helpful!

 

[Bassman2003]

You are just "cooking" the wort before pitching to sterilize it for long term storage. Then, when you want to use it, you open it up, pitch and make your starter. Similar to the canned starter wort that is being sold now.

Could you point me to where you can buy canned starter wort? I had this as a business idea a few years back but have no experience in product development. I always thought there was a market for just buying the stuff.

Thanks.

 

[fartinmartin]

I've been rehydrating the dry yeast, 15minutes in water just tossed in, then 15mins on the stir plate, I then top it up with wort up to one litre and leave it spinning for five or six hours it's then ready for pitching.
The fermentation takes off straight away, my last brew at 1.050 took only two days to drop to 1.010 that's S04

 

[youngdh]

Another reason for a starter is to ensure the yeast are still viable and not contaminated (lacks that bready/yeasty smell; smells sour or "off"). This is even more important when propagating harvested yeast.

 

[ericbw]

With harvested yeast, I would definitely do a starter if it's more than a couple of weeks old.

 

[Sparge]

I like to harvest yeast from my starter prior to pitching in order to have it available for a few generations in my fridge. Less expensive and whatnot but mostly I just like knowing what I have on hand and only having to stop and buy grain when I want to brew. It really just helps ensure you have a lot of healthy yeast when you pitch. reduces lag time and helps counter any crazy events the yeast may have suffered through (high temps, long time on the shelf, etc.). I don't pay very much attention to the exact number calculators give me. I make about a 2 L starter of 1.040 ish wort a couple days before pull off a pint into a mason jar and pitch the rest. It works and is easy.

harvesting yeast from my starters is one of the main reasons I do it. It saves me a trip to the local store and saves money.

 

[pdxal]

Could you point me to where you can buy canned starter wort? I had this as a business idea a few years back but have no experience in product development. I always thought there was a market for just buying the stuff.

Thanks.

Here you go:
http://www.northernbrewer.com/fast-pitch-canned-wort-4-pack

 

[corkybstewart]

Another reason for a starter is to ensure the yeast are still viable and not contaminated (lacks that bready/yeasty smell; smells sour or "off"). This is even more important when propagating harvested yeast.

Just last week I decided to use a vial of hefeweizen yeast that was slightly out of date. I made a starter on Wednesday so it would have plenty of time to get going, by Friday I gave up and called a friend who had a vial I used. I would be crying now if I hadn't made a starter and found out my yeast was dead.

 

[Bassman2003]

Here you go:
http://www.northernbrewer.com/fast-pitch-canned-wort-4-pack

Hey Thanks. That was going to be my approach and pricing. Cool.

 

[prrriiide]

I didn't do starters for a long time. Like the first 5 years I brewed. I didn't think anything about it: my beers were getting great reviews, they were crowd favorites at festivals, etc. It never occurred to me why they never scored well with judges. Then I took the BJCP course and discovered that even with the positive response, I was getting off-flavors from under-pitching and stressing the yeast. Acetaldehyde (green apple flavor) was a biggie, but there were others.

I did a starter on my next batch of the "flagship" beer. The results were dramatic. I noticed a HUGE improvement to a beer that I liked a lot beforehand. I kept doing the starters, and the next festival I went to won people's choice by 70% of the vote. The yeast was (and is) S-05. AND...my batches are now more consistent in terms of FG and taste.

TL;DR...I didn't think starters were worth the time and effort. I was dead wrong. I do a starter for every batch, every time, no matter the yeast strain, no matter the time constraints. If I don't have time to do a starter, I don't have time to brew. For my process, it's as important as good water.

 

[seabass07]

I've had similar results. It takes a lot longer for acetaldehyde to go away if I don't make a starter. There are also more esters present, even of I ferment at a low temp. A starter makes a huge difference in my experience.

 

[bvn]

I've been brewing for ~40 years. IMO under-pitching means you haven't given the yeast manufacturer enough money. Assuming you rack your brew to a secondary fermenter, you may notice the amount of cream yeast in the bottom of your primary. I am a 5 gallon brewer and there is always more than a quart of slurry (cream yeast) in the bottom of my primary. The amount of yeast remaining in the primary is more important than how much was pitched in the beginning.

If your brew Kreusens in the first 12 hours, then your pitching is just right.The brewing of ales is an incredibly forgiving process. I don't pay much attention to the numbers unless something goes wrong. I find Augie Busch's approach of tasting everything to "see" what each ingredient and each process contributes to the final result a more reliable guide to a tasty brew. Biologically, the art of brewing ales is the practice of caring and feeding of yeast. ericbw's response explains that aspect quite well. May your yeast always be happy!

PS I frequently use the cream yeast as starters for making bigas into bread.

 

[ericbw]

Just last week I decided to use a vial of hefeweizen yeast that was slightly out of date. I made a starter on Wednesday so it would have plenty of time to get going, by Friday I gave up and called a friend who had a vial I used. I would be crying now if I hadn't made a starter and found out my yeast was dead.

How far out of date was it?

I had an Irish Ale that expired in February. I did a starter, but it cranked right up.

If you ever accidentally do that and there's no activity after a couple days, just pitch then. No tears!

 

[oddsock]

I haven't been making starters, but my LHBS closed down, and I'm thinking of harvesting yeast to save some money now that I'm shipping ingredients.

I understand about potential off flavors created as the yeast reproduce, but aren't those created in the starter as well? How does the starter keep those out of the wort when we pitch the whole starter?

 

[ericbw]

The flavors are in the starter beer. I don't think they're in the yeast. Starter is small.

 

[seabass07]

I haven't been making starters, but my LHBS closed down, and I'm thinking of harvesting yeast to save some money now that I'm shipping ingredients.

I understand about potential off flavors created as the yeast reproduce, but aren't those created in the starter as well? How does the starter keep those out of the wort when we pitch the whole starter?

That's one reason a lot of people cold crash and decant the starter. Especially if it's a large starter. Don't want to dump 4L of estery starter into a 5 gallon batch. It will definitely change the final beer.

 

[ericbw]

I was tired when I typed my response last night. If you decant and have a pint or less, then it's a small amount in a 5 gallon batch. If you cold crash and get just the yeast, it's tiny. But yes, a 4L starter is 20% of the 5 gallon batch!

 

[oddsock]

Ah, decanting makes sense! Thanks!