The long run Draught, Please help

[Highplainsdakota]

OK, I'm new to the forum, but a long time brewer and reader.

Teaser: This is going to be a draught line length / diameter / material / extras question.

I'm building a new house and installing a remote draught beer system, but need some help with the specifics. This is going to get a bit complicated so hold on tight!

The set-up: Large chest freezer precisely temp controlled with Ranco housing half-barrels and corny kegs of home brew, placed in garage. I want to run a 4 faucet tower in the basement, 24 foot run, 4 foot elevation drop keg to faucet. Looking at a 4 product hose with 2 glycol hose bundle to permanently install between the floor joists as it's being built, so this has to be right the first time.

I have access to 75/25 beer gas, and would at least like to run some lines on that for stouts. I'm OK running all the beers on beer gas if that makes it easier. I'll use a glycol chiller (75' max) to cool the system.

Most equations give you hose length, but my hose length is determined by where my keg fridge is! I therefore am calculating for proper resistance. Doing the math, I will need a beer line with 0.542 psi/ft resistance, which happens to be close to the resistance of 5/16" stainless tubing (Yeah right), or 1/4" ID Polyethylene tubing.

Here's the problem... Every time I read about line diameter / length / resistance, it refers to the type of beer I want to push. Some forums just say "if you switch to Bud Light cut off a foot or two of beer line for less resistance" WTF? That is bull crap. Maybe once, but I'll be switching beers on these lines for years. I'm fine with running extra line coiled up in the keg fridge, but once the line length is determined, it's gonna have to work for all beers attached right?

Furthermore, if I calculate for length at 12 psi CO2, a 3/16" gets me 4.5', a 1/4" gets me 11.75', and a 5/16" tube gets me 58.75'! That's quite the jump. I'm OK with a few coils of beer hose, but 28 extra feet at $10/ft is extreme.

Please help. I'm going to summarize my questions below:
If I run all kegs on beer gas, do they all have to be at 30 psi to keep carbonation up? And therefore do they all have to go though stout faucets with resistor plates?

Can I plum halfway with 5/16" tubing and neck it down to 3/16" tubing at the faucet for a foot or two (calculated of course) to get the proper total resistance?

Is there a good method to install stainless tube in my ceiling and walls, then tubing from wall to faucet and wall to keg fridge?

Anyone else have thoughts or ideas on long draught runs using glycol? How do the bars do it with so many different beers at different pressures/temperatures?

Thanks for all the replies

 

[Subdivisions]

As far as your nitrogen/CO2 gas this is what micromatic's site says:

Mixed gas in a cylinder with a ratio of 25% CO2 / 75% N2 is appropriate for stout beers but when applied to ales and lagers, allows the beer to go flat because the partial pressure of CO2 is too low.

 

[Highplainsdakota]

Can't you just increase the 25%/75% beer gas pressure for a higher partial pressure of CO2? If CO2 is just 25% of the gas, and you want around 12 psi CO2, can you keep it at 48 psi beer gas, then plan the line resistance accordingly?

 

[Highplainsdakota]

Here is my answer at this point, so please check my work:

Length = 20'
Drop = 5' (0.5 x 5 = 2.5 psi added)
CO2 head pressure = 12 psi
3/16 line resistance = 3 psi/ft
5/16 line resistance = 0.17 psi/ft
"Connection point" is between 3/16 line and 5/16 line
1 psi at faucet for good pour
X = end line pressure

Using the equation Length = (Head pressure - faucet pressure - elevation psi change) / beer line resistance

Tap to connection point including elevation change (5/16 line): 20' = (12 - (X) + 2.5) / 0.17

X = 11.1 psi at connection point

Connection point to Faucet (3/16" line) Length = (11.1 - 1) / 3

Length = 3.37

So 20' of 5/16" ID line at 12 psi CO2 basically decreases the pressure by 0.9 psi (negligible), which connects to 3.37 foot length of 3/16" line to give me 1 psi at the faucet. This seems like the entire first 20 feet don't matter at all, which is great I suppose but doesn't seem right. Also, if I use a restrictor plate in the stout faucet when I use beer gas at 30 psi it should also pour correctly. If I switch to pushing everything with beer gas I have to recalculate for high resistance, but won't ever be able to push through a restrictor plate without over carbonating a stout right?

 

[WayFrae]

I feel like you will probably want to use stainless steel tubing since you are building the lines into the house. I guess both stainless and plastic can develop leaks but I think it is more likely to need to replace the plastic tubing which would be a huge hassle if you are building them into the walls/floor.

 

[Highplainsdakota]

Good point, WayFrae;

Do you have any ideas on how to run 4 SS beer lines and cool them with glycol lines? What about each end of the lines, some kind of nozzle coming out of the wall near the keg fridge end? Also, where do I get SS beer lines, and how do I splice them together. I don't know if I can get someone to weld SS in place... Are there other connections that will seal long term, or elbow joint?

From my calculation above, the resistance is so low that it wouldn't much matter if I used any size SS line. Do you agree?

Thanks again for the replies!

 

[WayFrae]

I'm not really sure how to do any of it really haha I am mostly just brainstorming. You had mentioned stainless lines so I thought you already had a supplier for some. You could probably use a coil of stainless that is usually used as an immersion chiller like this.

For the glycol lines, I imagine it would be similar to how you would set it up with regular lines but I don't know, I don't have any experience with glycol. If you did have some kind of quick disconnect panel coming out of the wall near the fridge you would be able to attach a regular beer line to it in whatever length you need to add how ever much resistance you require but I don't know. I am just throwing out ideas

 

[SenorWanderer]

I'm a draft beer service technician. You're WAY over thinking this.

First, don't use stainless. that's insane. Use the 4/2 that you mentioned.

So 20' of 5/16" ID line at 12 psi CO2 basically decreases the pressure by 0.9 psi (negligible), which connects to 3.37 foot length of 3/16" line to give me 1 psi at the faucet.

This looks correct-ish. I'm not sure where you're getting your restriction numbers. check here. 5/16" 4/2 barrier trunk line takes 0.10 lbs/ft. So use that from the cooler all the way to your faucets. Then soak up the extra pressure you need for correct carbonation with 3/16" or even 1/4" line in the cooler that attaches from the trunk line to the tavern heads (keg couplers). Long is good here; it gives you more room to work with. This is how installs are done.

If I run all kegs on beer gas, do they all have to be at 30 psi to keep carbonation up? And therefore do they all have to go though stout faucets with resistor plates?

Generally speaking, 15psi CO2 at beer serving temps (36F-40F) is proper carbonation, but let's use your figure of 12psi. Beergas is 25% CO2, so you're getting an effective carbonation of 3psi. 30psi is getting you to 7.5psi. Not quite there.

Can I plum halfway with 5/16" tubing and neck it down to 3/16" tubing at the faucet for a foot or two (calculated of course) to get the proper total resistance?

Bingo, except the smaller diameter goes in the cooler, as I discuss above.

Looks like you'll be able to go with straight CO2, and then a tank of beer gas when you have a nitro beer on tap. If you feel like spending some money, you could step down to all 3/16" line and run everything on a blend box. You'd need too much pressure to push through 3/16" line, but at 60% CO2 you'd be right there probably. And then you'd have your nitro mix for stouts, etc. You'd buy 2 tanks, 1 100% CO2, and 1 100% nitrogen. You could also get a nitrogen generator so you don't have to buy N2 tanks

Hope this helps.

 

[day_trippr]

Here is my answer at this point, so please check my work: [...]
3/16 line resistance = 3 psi/ft
[...]

Game over.

While roughly 99.9% of the purported "beer line length calculators" use that same figure, in the context of dispensing beer, it's wrong.

By a lot.

Like close to 300% wrong.

Which is guaranteed to put any calculation in the weeds.

http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/


Cheers!

 

[sandyeggoxj]

When looking at calculations consider the flow rate. Seems like most calculators default to 1 gal/minute.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Also this might be long enough that you want to integrate foam detectors. You also might be able to push with beer pumps to keep the pressure down.

 

[DrunkleJon]

The set-up: Large chest freezer precisely temp controlled with Ranco housing half-barrels and corny kegs of home brew, placed in garage. I want to run a 4 faucet tower in the basement, 24 foot run, 4 foot elevation drop keg to faucet. Looking at a 4 product hose with 2 glycol hose bundle to permanently install between the floor joists as it's being built, so this has to be right the first time.

Just a thought on the bold part. Soft lines (Vinyl, poly, PVC, what have you) will need to be replaced periodically. If you are hard (permanant) plumbing these lines I would include some way of replacing them without tearing out the ceiling/wallboard. You may want to plumb them inside a span of conduit or something (insulated or maybe a conduit in a conduit with insulation between?) where you could use something to jumper the new line(s) in with the old for pull through replacement or something similar. Sure, with proper cleaning and sanitization of the lines you shouldnt need to do it often, but it is always better to think ahead and save yourself a headache when it comes up.

just my $0.02

 

[barnaclebob]

Can you route the beer line through some kind of conduit such as 4" circular ducting or something like that so that the beer line isn't permanent?

 

[Highplainsdakota]

Thanks for all the responses so far. Seems like I'm at least on the right track. I'd like it as permanent as possible, but I just have no experience with stainless lines. I'll have to do some research to figure out what kind of PITA that would be. The connections would probably have to be nozzle with a valve sticking out the wall for each line to attach 1/4 or 5/16" ID hose to the keg cooler for the appropriate restriction. Luckily I have a mechanical/storage room just behind the bar so I can get to the end of the beer lines easily. It is also over this mechanical room that the lines would be placed, though the ceiling and walls would be finished with drywall. In the end, pulling down a little sheetrock would probably be the worst of a full scale replacement of the lines.

This all being said, if the expense isn't 10 fold over the vinyl or plastic lines, I would be willing to entertain the idea of stainless lines. Sounds like it would be easier to clean as well. On another note, as far as conduit goes, these large "cables" of 4-6 beer lines and 2 glycol lines wrapped in aluminum and foam sheathing don't exactly bend well. I think I saw a 1 to 1.5' radius on one site. Can't do that with PVC as far as I've seen. I'd probably need 2 90 degree bends as well.

For the Faucet end, I'd insulate a small box between the studs with an access panel in the for the connections between the 3/16" hose to the faucet and the stainless or vinyl lines that are installed so I can clean them or adjust the length of the 3/16" restriction, etc. I'm hoping with the glycol running to the tower and back through this small access box it would keep it cool enough.

In summary, it seems the answer to the riddle is installing lines that are as permanent, cleanable, and have the least resistance possible in the walls/ceilings, then dialing in the resistance on either end with narrower line. I was mostly worried that some line I install would prevent me ever getting the pour right.

FYI, I'm not going as far as a nitrogen generator, but did look at the gas blenders. I just think I'm going to draw the line there. I'm willing to put in 3 grand or so for lines, glycol, fridge, and gas, but adding a blender is just another 1-2 grand when I can do it easily without it.

Can anyone give some feedback on the perlick adjustable flow faucets, and whether they have any part to play here? (especially how much adjustment they are capable of.) I would rather not use them, but they seem to be a cheap way to dial in the flow from the basement without running back and forth to the garage while I'm trying to entertain / drink beer.

Again, thank you all for the replies..

 

[Highplainsdakota]

I have the same topic posted on the AHA forum, and one senior member gave me this link. I thought I'd pass it on for everyone's information.

(http://www.draughtquality.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/DQM_Full_Final.pdf)