The flavor of Ayinger Jahrhundert

[dfhar]

Hi everyone - long time lurker, first time poster here. I've had a question on my mind lately regarding Ayinger Jahrhundert. I sampled one on tap recently and really enjoyed it. It's got a subtle but delicious maltiness to it that's hard to describe. It's not toasty or roasty, rather it's almost like a malted milk ball but without the chocolate. It gives the impression of a slight sweetness, but it's not a crystal malt sweetness and it's still very crisp. I tried to seek out some other beers that I hoped might have a similar character, like Jack's Abbey Jabby Brau, but haven't found anything that has that same flavor.

To anyone else who has sampled Jahrhundert and knows what flavor I'm talking about - how do I get that in my homebrew? Since getting my temperature control system running I've been wanting to brew a lager, and something along the lines of Jahrhundert would be just the ticket. I've done some searching on the web and haven't come up with much, other than some hints that it may be due to melanoidins from decoction mashing. I'm currently doing 2.5 gallon batches using the BIAB method, and have considered doing a decoction step after conversion is complete but before the boil in an effort to produce some melanoidins. If I can get the same flavor from melanoidin malt (which I have not yet used), then that might be a simpler solution, assuming that the melanoidins are actually responsible for the flavor I'm craving.

 

[Wolfbrau]

I agree, it's a badass beer. It's actually a Dortmunder Export, a rare style here in the US. In my ancestral homeland of Baden-Wurttemberg, in far western Germany, that style is impossible to miss.

It's a blend of flavors that makes a Dortmunder. You want graininess from high-quality pilsner malt, a good portion of Vienna or Munich malt, and little touch of melanoidin malt. 70:30 Pilsner to Munich or 50:50 Pilsner to Vienna would be awesome, with a couple ounces of Melanoidin or Aromatic malt.

They decoct like it's going out of style down there, so if you have the time, by all means, decoct!

Ayinger uses ONLY Hallertau Mettelfruh. Period.

 

[jdm61]

The Dortmunder Export style used to be more common in the US. You used to be able to find DAB or Dortmunder Union. I guess that the style suffered from its loss of popularity in Germany to the benefit of the Germans Pils style beers. I read that some of the old brewers either went under or were consolidated under the new Brinkhoff label. The 'ex' label used to be a bit confusing to us foreigners. Even as late as the 80's what we would call a Munich Helles was sometimes refereed to as a "ex" outside of Munich but it is a different brew than the Dortmunder. I am not sure what type Becks and St. Pauli girl are. Are they a Dortmunder type beer or are they somewhere between it and a pils? Wolf, by the time that I got to the northern part of Baden-Wurttemberg (Heidelberg area) pils pretty much ruled the roost. We would occasionally have a dunkels or a weirs, but 90% of the time, it was pils. Maybe you can tell me this. Did they have a different name for dunkels in that part of Germany?

 

[Wolfbrau]

That's a great question, jdm. Beck's is like a pox everywhere in Germany. Kind of like macros here. Eichbaum was ever-present, all varieties of bottles, and was kind of considered horse piss by the locals. Heh. Never found it on draft.

Just hanging around, I never saw many dark beers of any kind, and certainly no dark lagers. Even dunkelweizen was tricky; the only ones I could reliably get were Schoefferhoffer and Erdinger.

Did you have some Binding Romer Pils while you were there? The Turkish bartender let me borrow one of the glasses (when I offered to pay). Still proudly have it. I guess the marketing worked out for them in the end, eh?

God, Heidelberg. What a beautiful town. Sigh...

 

[dfhar]

Thanks for the info! I'm going to give this style a shot as soon as my fermenter is free. I know Jamil's BCS recipe also calls for 70:30 pils/munich with a dash of melanoidin, so I might try that grain bill first, fermented with WLP833.

Wolfbrau, do you have any thoughts with respect to munich I (6L) or munich II (10L) for getting that Jahrhundert maltiness?

 

[dfhar]

oops, double post!

 

[Wolfbrau]

I'd go with Munich II, I can't remember the last time I used Munich I.

 

[Hajimasabi]

Reviving a dead thread here. I'm a big fan of Jahrhundart Lager so of course I went looking for a clone and found pretty much nothing other than the Expat Export recipe from BCS so I went with that as a starting point. I'm writing this to let people know how the two compared, at least with incarnation of the Expat recipe. My recipe was the same except for substituting tett for hal hops(LHS was out of hal) and using Saflager s-23 for the yeast pitched direct from the dry pack. Force carbonated in the keg.

Appearance: Side by side the Ayinger is much lighter both in color and body. The SRM is probably around 3 or so. The high proportion of munich may be responsible . The expatbeer has killer fine head that lasts forever whereas the Ayinger is less fine and dissipates rather quickly.

Aroma: The aroma of ayinger is all pils malt, clean and soft with a bit of hops. expat has much less pronounced pils aroma and is much more subdued overall. The expat seems higher in alcohol as 5.6. Ayinger stated 5.5 on their website but the bottle says 5.2 ABV. Expat is 5.6 and I'd say closer to 5.2 would be a better match. My version may have some slight higher alcohols though my fermentation temp was spot on but probably due to underpitching.

Mouthfeel: Ayinger is much thinner and is quite highly carbonated which lends a prickly character. My BCS version is carbed to a lower level and could be brought up a bit. The body of both beers is about equal.

Taste: Ayinger is all about the soft pils malt balanced with subtle hops. Perfectly balanced and very clean. My BCS has more going on and does not come across nearly as clean, is sweet and slightly carmelly rather than pils malty. Some slight higher alcohol flavors.

Verdict: My go at the BCS Expat is not bad, but is not much of a match for the Ayinger being slightly more complex and higher in alcohol. Side by side the Ayinger strikes me as distinctly Helles like. For the next go I'll try pitching a full starter of WLP 833 which I've heard is actually from the Ayinger brewery. Recipe changes include increasing the pils malt percentage and dropping back on the munich, sticking with all hallertau hops. That would basically put in the same range as the BCS helles recipe. The Ayinger site does not give a style for this beer so it may be that it is indeed more of a Helles than a Dortmunder as listed on beeradvocate.

 

[BigEd]

IMO take a lot of what's on Beer Advocate with a large grain of salt. This beer is not a Dortmunder. With the exception of the German Mega brewers like Becks, a traditional Bavarian brewer like Ayinger is going to stick to the local styles. The closest description might be an Export-Helles. The term Export was often used to indicate a slightly higher gravity brew designed to withstand the rigors of a long transit and this looks pretty much like a Helles bumped up by 20-25%.

I'd go all pils malt with maybe a small addition of light German crystal, Hallertau hops to 25 IBU bittering and a small late addition for a touch of hop flavor & aroma. The 833 yeast is a fine choice, of course.

 

[dfhar]

Great to see other people are interested in figuring out this beer. Here's my latest attempt:

http://imgur.com/k5T1Ctt

It's pretty close to the BCS Expat Export, but I'll put my recipe here:

OG 1.054
FG 1.014
IBU ~29
Kettle efficiency: 82%
90 minute boil
Volume into fermenter: 3.3 gallons

Grain:
4.82# Best Malz Pilsner (70%)
1.82# Best Malz Munich 10L (26.5%)
0.14# Best Malz Melanoidin (2%)
0.10# Best Malz Acidulated (1.5%)

Hops:
0.45 oz 4.1%AA Hallertau FWH
0.7 oz 4.1%AA Hallertau @ 60
0.35 oz 4.1%AA Hallertau @ 25
0.5 oz 4.1%AA Hallertau @ 2

Water:
Ca 66
Mg 4
SO4 83
Na 78
Cl 177
HCO3 47

My BIAB/Hochkurz/Schmitz ("Frankenstein") Mash:
Dough in at 2 qt/lb at 136 F to achieve a rest temperature of 131 F. Rest 10 minutes, then direct heat up 2 degrees/minute to 145 F and rest 20 minutes. Pull bag and pour all of the grain with ~2 quarts liquid (enough to make an "oatmeal"-like consistency) into a second kettle. Hold main mash at 145 and heat the decoction to 160 F, hold for 15 minutes. Bring decoction to boil and boil for 20 minutes. Replace bag in main mash, ladle decoction back into main mash to bring mash temperature up to 160 F. Cool any remaining decoction down to 160 with ice cubes or cold water and add back into main mash. Rest main mash at 160 F for 60 minutes. Top off mash with enough 170 degree F water to bring the mash to your desired pre-boil gravity, pull and squeeze bag.

Fermentation: Pitch decanted 1.6 L Wyeast 2206 stir-plate starter at 45 F, ferment at 50 F until gravity reaches ~1.020. Raise temperature 3-5 degrees every 12 hours until you hit 65 F, let rest for 1-2 days or until FG is reached. Ramp down by 3-5 degrees every 12 hours until you reach 30 F, rest 1 week. Rack to keg and carbonate.

My impression is that this beer is very, very, very good but not very similar to Jahrhundert. It's got a really great toasty (i.e. Munich) malt character that's just not present in Jahurhundert, but Jahrhundert still has "something" that's not in my beer. Maybe I'm chasing shadows here. The color is a few SRM shades darker (my guess is 6 to 7) and while I think I hit the hop bitterness/flavor/aroma on the nose for a Dortmunder, it's more than Jahrhundert has.

Previous to this batch, I brewed Jamil's BCS Munich Helles recipe and the only change I made to that was to use WLP 833. I thought that was a great beer as well, but it wasn't Jahrhundert, and didn't have the malt flavor I'm trying to get.

I just brewed another beer yesterday, this one at 1.050 OG with 63% pils, 33% vienna, 2% melanoidin, and 2% acidulated. Hops were 0.7 oz 8.8%AA Amarillo @ 20 and 0.3 oz 8.8%AA Amarillo at 5 (I went with American hops on this one, but kept the hopping pretty light). Not really an attempt at cloning Jahrhundert due to the hops I used, but I'm definitely trying to get a similar kind of malt character that it has. I used the same water treatment, mash schedule, and fermentation as the Dortmunder recipe listed above. I'll post some impressions when the beer is done. My hope is that the vienna provides the little bit of pseudo-sweetness that Jahrhundert has, although something like 90-95% pils and 5-10% CaraVienne isn't a bad idea to try either.

 

[Hajimasabi]

Based on the Expat Export proportion of just over 30% munich and the color and body that resulted, I'd say a much smaller proportion of munich of 10% or less would be a better match. Would love to hear how these turned out though

 

[dfhar]

I checked my notes and when I brewed Jamil's BCS Helles recipe, it turns out I actually did bump the Munich up to 10%. Great beer, color was about right for Jahrhundert, but the flavor wasn't quite the same.

I'm not sure Munich is the answer. I've got the batch with vienna fermenting now, and I'm thinking 93% pils 7% caravienne will be my next attempt.

 

[JayDubWill]

I was stationed about 30 minutes from the Ayinger brewery. Great place with good food and even better beer. I've been trying to perfect a helles for a couple years now. I'm very close but I think the key may be in the water. Off the top of my head I want to say it's a very soft water profile. Are you adjusting your water?

 

[dfhar]

I use my tap water filtered with activated carbon. The water is pretty low alkalinity and soft with the exception of moderately high levels of Na and Cl which I believe is due to salt runoff from the highways near the reservior:

Ca - 20.8
Mg - 4.24
SO4 - 25.7
Na - 78.3
Cl - 139
HCO3 - 47

My Ca is quite low, and I typically add a small amount of gypsum and calcium chloride to achieve this profile:

Ca - 66
Mg - 4.24
SO4 - 83
Na - 78.3
Cl - 177
HCO3 - 47

I can believe that Bavarian helles calls for low alkalinity water, but I'm a bit surprised that it would require a very soft water profile - just about all the authentic examples I've had both here in the states and when I've visited Munich have had a more minerally taste than my homebrewed helles. I'm not saying they use hard water by any means, but I think I do taste some minerals. I could be wrong!

 

[biertourist]

DFAR, I think you're well on your way; that recipe looks great and IMHO, that malty flavor is decoction all the way. So many home brewers don't want to believe that it's required to get some of those great malty German and Czech flavors, but the chemistry that's happening in a decoction is just beyond complex; adding a bit of melanoidin malt isn't going to get you there. -It's like adding lactic acid to a regular beer to create a Berlinerweiss- you just get a very single-layered kinda boring flavor.

Adam

 

[beersk]

Sadly, fellas, that flavor we're all after of Ayinger Jahrundert and I've noticed it in Weihenstephaner Premium and a couple others as well, is unobtainable. I've been chasing it for several years now. Authentic ingredients, building water from a blank profile, noble hops, German yeast, proper fermentation temperature, proper conditioning... There is just a certain something that I can't explain these beers have, that terroir, so to speak. It's a flavor, almost honey-like, and perhaps it's a slight bit of oxidation. But I've had Weihenstephaner oktoberfest on tap and it still has that flavor. Notice how there are no American beers with that same flavor? Even the breweries that use authentic ingredients, here in the US, aren't getting those flavors.
It might have to do with water, but I think it's a combination of everything that makes it special like that and I don't think it's obtainable, unfortunately. But, there's no harm in continuing to strive for it.

 

[Hajimasabi]

Ok, now that sounds like a challenge folks! I agree with the honey like flavor. The residual sweetness backing up all the pils does not come across as toffee or caramel like to me, but as more of a honey like sweetness. I've had good luck with honey malt. I use 5% in a Rye Pale ale and it definitely adds a distinctly honey flavor and sweetness that could be a good match here (I'm kinda looking for excuses to use it anyway). I'm thinking 90% pils, 5% each munich and honey malt. Whether to decoction mash or not is an endless debate. I decoct for all my hefeweizens so I'll probably use one here rather than the melanoidin malt.

 

[JayDubWill]

That sweetness may be at least partially come from dextrin malt (Carapils, carafoam). I've brewed several of the helles recipes from Horst Dornbusch's book, once of which used something around 18% dextrin malt. It gave it an odd kind of sweetness.

 

[BigEd]

Sadly, fellas, that flavor we're all after of Ayinger Jahrundert and I've noticed it in Weihenstephaner Premium and a couple others as well, is unobtainable.

Really? Frankly I think as homebrewers, who don't have to be encumbered with the budget restrictions of many commercial breweries, we can achieve it or at least come very close. Authentic German ingredients like malts, hops and yeast strains are available. The problem with a lot of the American commercial versions of German brews, IMO, is that they cheat on ingredients, often using domestic malt for the base while attempting to cover the deficiencies with crystal and other specialty malts. Decoction mashes are also rare. Sam Adams does decoct some of the lagers but unfortunately they are often guilty of the ingredient cheat.

My take is that if you start with real Old World ingredients, use a proper mash along with careful fermentation and aging you can brew a beer that can stack up against the real deal. I'm not talking clone beers here as the recipes from most of the German brewers are not disclosed but you can produce a beer with some of the authentic flavors and profile.

 

[JayDubWill]

I seem to have misplaced my Helles book but when I find it, i'll post what Dorst says about the water profile. This last batch of helles I used Kaisers Weihenstephan water profile:

Ca - 16
Mg - 9
SO4 - 18
Na - 3
Cl - 17
HCO3 - 48

Like I said earlier, I came very close to what i'm looking for. I think i'm a little low on the hops but that will be adjusted in the next batch.

 

[dfhar]

Really? Frankly I think as homebrewers, who don't have to be encumbered with the budget restrictions of many commercial breweries, we can achieve it or at least come very close.

I really do agree here. This isn't alchemy. I was looking through Kai's recipes and remembered that he had a really good looking one for a Helles:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Edel_Hell

As others have mentioned, the water profile used for Helles does indeed seem really soft. I might have to try substituting some RO water for a portion of my tap water and see if I can match Kai's mineral profile.

My latest lager (1.050 OG, 63/33/2/2 pils/vienna/acid/melanoidin with ~20 IBUs of late addition Amarillo, Wyeast 2206) is maturing now, and even the gravity test already tasted great. I'll start ramping down for lagering tomorrow and taste it in a few weeks. In the meantime, I think I'm going to give Kai's Edel Hell a try.

 

[JayDubWill]

I really liked the flavor and aroma that Perle hops gave me. Even though its not a noble hop it has all the characteristics I like in German Helles beers. Oddly more so than Hallertau or Tettnang has given me, but again I know I wasn't aggressive enough with my late additions in earlier batches. Magnum is of course a great one for bittering.

 

[dfhar]

Resurrecting a dead thread here, but I wanted to say that I just cracked the keg of the Kai's Edel Hell I brewed on 11/9/2014. The only changes I made to the recipe were fermenting with WLP833 instead of WLP830, and using a thick decoction (boiled for 25 minutes) to step up from 145F to 160F.

After pouring out the first turbid pint or two, the beer is running crystal clear. The real kicker for me, though, is that this beer is a dead ringer for Weihenstephaner Original from a fresh keg. This is the first lager I've brewed that has made me say "WOW!" after a taste. It felt like I was tasting Augustiner Lagerbier Hell for the first time again in Munich! It definitely has the elusive German lager malt flavor. It's a different beer from Jahrhundert, of course, but the same kind of malt richness is there in spades. Compared to all of my other lagers which lagered for only a couple weeks before I couldn't resist drinking them, the malt flavor in this one really "pops".

There are really two things I did differently with this brew: rigid pH control, and long lagering time. I'm going to continue being diligent with these factors in my next batches to see if I can repeat this success.

 

[JayDubWill]

Thats good to hear. They do take their time, but the reward is worth the wait! I've got two batches lagering right now that I hope improve with some time.