The dynamics of extract additions

[HobbenSchlobben]

Done lurking, ready to participate.

So it's better to add extract later in the boil- that much I've gathered. My question is, how little can one get away with adding initially and still achieve solid hop utilization?

Also, many recipes I come across call for both lme and dme. What is the reasoning behind this? Is it just to add some ambiguous complexity, or is there a more specific purpose?

And lastly, if one is going to use both lme and dme, is one better for the initial addition than the other? For the purpose of these questions, I only ever use light extract and fiddle with specialty grains.

Thanks; hope these questions are worthwhile.

 

[bobbrews]

If you're doing a partial volume boil, late extract additions won't help you that much to achieve more hop utilization. It is not a substitute for a full volume boil. I highly recommend full volume boils, especially for hop-forward beers. Late extract additions provide much better results for partial mash full volume boils or in some cases, all grain recipes whereupon 1 lb. is added.

Using LME and/or DME is a matter of preference. I prefer Extra Light DME for the most part. It has a longer shelf life, contains less additives, is easier to work with & weigh, and it's cheap - Pilsener is good too, but I would avoid amber, dark, gold, etc.

 

[HobbenSchlobben]

I'm full volume boiling fo sho.

 

[djbradle]

Why would you avoid amber, dark, and gold lme? I've used them in specific recipes with great results. Actually several bsda's I've done with Munich and amber are awesome. Make sure you use fresh extract from a reputable supplier with fast turnaround.

 

[HobbenSchlobben]

Also, I'm adding extract later to avoid that nebulous extract twang in addition to hop utilization reasons. Just wondering if people generally like to do half early, half late; or if something such as 1/5th early 4/5ths late is cool. Like, as long as there's at least a lb. going in at the beginning, is that sufficient?

 

[HobbenSchlobben]

I wouldn't avoid munich, but as for amber and dark: my understanding is that they're just colored/flavored with specialty grains anyway... so one can achieve increased control and freshness by doing so oneself. I'm hoping to graduate from extract sooner than later, so the simpler the extract and the more complex the grains, the better. For me.

Any thoughts on some of the other questions?

 

[grndslm]

I have seen it said, on more than one occasion, that late extract additions *DO* increase hop utilization.

We just brewed last night, and it was by far the lightest beer we've made yet. Dropped ALL the extract in as soon as we turned off the burner.

New process goes like this....

- Fill kettle as close to top as possible.
- Let boil for 20 min to remove oxygen.
- Open 2-oz bag of hops.
- Throw portions in at 40, 30, 20, 10, and 5 min marks.
- Take off burner.
- Mix extract really well.
- Use your preferred method to chill. (didn't use a wort chiller this one time, but I did "flush" it a few times in the sink. never again. next time, I'll use a glass mug to dump excess wort into another pot.. then use the wort chiller like normal. But I am interested in "no chill" brewing, which it seems like I'm already starting toward with 40-min bitterings. Just need to start "cube hopping", FWH'ing, and dry hopping... of which I don't really understand "cube hopping".)


But yea... the time you add the extract, I believe, affects hop utilization, maltiness, and color.

I want a more hop-forward, less malty, and lighter colored beer. It appears that adding extract as late in the boil as possible, or immediately after the boil, is the exact solution to this problem.

Guess it'll take 2 more months for me to know for sure, tho!!!

FOR SCIENCE!!!

 

[HobbenSchlobben]

So no guesses as to why so many recipes from so many sources call for both lme and dme? There's got to be an explanation for this. All freshness/quality factors being equal, why not simply go with one or the other? I wouldn't ask, except that it seems so frequently prescribed.

And in this case, is one better to add before the other?

 

[bobbrews]

Most recipes don't call for both lme and dme... most pre-made kits do. My take on it is because the supplier wants to get rid of lme and dme and an equal rate. If everyone were to buy dme, then lme (which has a shorter shelf-life) would sit in the store longer.

 

[HobbenSchlobben]

Hmmm... so many recipes that I come across online (hbt included) do call for both. Perhaps this is just an unnecessary reflection of the trend you're mentioning (suppliers trying to maintain fresh stocks of both). I was sure there'd be a better reason, but alas. I guess the answer to all of my questions really is RDWHAH.

 

[CrookedTail]

When doing a partial boil, late extract additions (especially when using LME) is crucial. It prevents caramelization of the wort, which IMO is the cause for "extract twang." There's much debate about it improving hop utilization, but I've read in several places that although there is some truth to it, the improvement is barely (if at all) noticeable. I've been doing late additions pretty much from the beginning, so I can't really say either way.

If you do full boils, you can add all of your extract right away.

When i used to do partial boils, I'd add ~20% of the extract at the beginning of the boil. The rest would be added sometime in the final 15 minutes. When I did partial mashes with the partial boil, I wouldn't add any extract until the final 15 minutes.....just boil the wort created from the grains. That produced really great beer.

 

[CrookedTail]

Why would you avoid amber, dark, and gold lme? I've used them in specific recipes with great results. Actually several bsda's I've done with Munich and amber are awesome. Make sure you use fresh extract from a reputable supplier with fast turnaround.

I have nothing against them at all.

The main reason many people stick to light extract only is because they wish to mimic the all grain process, where you're using the extract as your base malt and adding character with steeping grains.

It also makes it easier to convert recipes to all grain if you ever decide to move on to that process.

There's certainly much validity to going the "light extract only" route. I've done so with many of my own recipes. However I remember in a thread a few years ago some of us were debating this very topic. And one poster named Bob, who at one time brewed professionally and whose opinion I've come to respect immensely, said something that changed the way I viewed darker extracts. He said once you know what's in them, you should view them as just another ingredient at your disposal. He explained it much better than I am, but it changed the way I thought about them. Since then I've incorporated them into some of my extract recipes.

 

[Getzinator]

When doing a partial boil, late extract additions (especially when using LME) is crucial. It prevents caramelization of the wort, which IMO is the cause for "extract twang."

+1 to this. You also preserve the color you're aiming for when you add later.

I don't really know anything about hop utilization, but early additions of DME and LME seem to have minimal effect on my end product. My two cents on that.

Also, I have to 100% diasgree with anyone and everyone saying that the DME vs LME has to do with stock rotation or any BS like that. The owner, manager, and employees of your LHBS most likely all brew themselves. There is no way they would purposely sell you something you shouldn't be using. So I would like to deter you from the notion that your local shop keepers are A-holes. Keep supporting your local businesses. /rant

The actual reasoning behind DME vs LME is the flexibility of weights and measures. LME traditionally comes in a 1.5 kilo can, so you're generally going to find kits and recipes using LME as the majority or base. The addition of DME is to give your base depth of flavor, but where you don't need a full 1.5 kilos.

 

[CrookedTail]

So no guesses as to why so many recipes from so many sources call for both lme and dme? There's got to be an explanation for this. All freshness/quality factors being equal, why not simply go with one or the other? I wouldn't ask, except that it seems so frequently prescribed.

And in this case, is one better to add before the other?

DME is usually mixed with LME in recipes to help get to specific gravities that you couldn't otherwise get to with LME, based on the measured amounts it is typically sold in.

For example, let's say you're brewing an English Brown ale, and you want your OG to be ~1.040-2. You're going to steep 1 lb of crystal malt, and a 4 oz of chocolate malt, and then make up the rest with light extract. If you use canned extract, it is only available in 3.3lb cans/containers. One can wouldn't be enough, but two cans would be too much. DME on the other hand, is widely available in one pound bags. You can make up the difference in gravity points easily. So instead they formulate the recipe so it calls for one 3.3lb can of LME, and two 1lb bags of DME. This way nothing has to be measured or wasted.

 

[Spartangreen]

I do full boils.
I've been adding 1/5 of the LME at the beginning of the boil, and 4/5 of the LME with 10 minutes left.
I kill the flame, add the last LME, stir, restart the fire, boil for 10 minutes.
My light beers have been lighter.

 

[HobbenSchlobben]

Also, I have to 100% diasgree with anyone and everyone saying that the DME vs LME has to do with stock rotation or any BS like that. The owner, manager, and employees of your LHBS most likely all brew themselves. There is no way they would purposely sell you something you shouldn't be using. So I would like to deter you from the notion that your local shop keepers are A-holes. Keep supporting your local businesses. /rant

The actual reasoning behind DME vs LME is the flexibility of weights and measures. LME traditionally comes in a 1.5 kilo can, so you're generally going to find kits and recipes using LME as the majority or base. The addition of DME is to give your base depth of flavor, but where you don't need a full 1.5 kilos.

I totally support my lhbs; even shelling out a few more bucks for their stuff which I could get cheaper online.

So you're saying weight units are the reason for using both. What I'm finding then is that there are several possible theories, none of which have anything to do with the actual qualities of the beer.

And do I have this straight: with full boils late extract additions are unnecessary? I've certainly heard otherwise. Wouldn't the same reason for late addition in partial boils apply, just to a lesser extent?

 

[Getzinator]

I totally support my lhbs; even shelling out a few more bucks for their stuff which I could get cheaper online.

So you're saying weight units are the reason for using both. What I'm finding then is that there are several possible theories, none of which have anything to do with the actual qualities of the beer.

I wasn't aiming that at anyone in particular, just ranting. But it always makes me very happy to know people are supporting local! The few extra dollars are worth it to me.

There are some people out there that take the hobby of home brewing to an entirely different level. For everything that my normal brain and palate can tell, the weight is the only difference.

You could probably cut out LME entirely and just use DME, but I always have a hard time with my DME clumping up. So using a larger quantity of LME alleviates that minor nuissance.

My philosophy is to just do whatever makes you happiest. If you want to add everything in at 60, there are plenty of people out there who do the same. I mean thats how it is with AG anyway (more or less ). I don't see how full boil would drastically change the fact that you're boiling an extract for 60 minutes, though. I only do par boils for extract. Much quicker to cool.

 

[Brewnoob1]

I have done both late additions and full out adding all to early. Adding it all at the start sure does save time and effort at the end! I haven't noticed a flavor difference between the two and only a slight color change. Yes, it's a bit darker, but I don't care about color as much as flavor. As for hops, I throw the two into BeerSmith and see what the hop IBUs do when I change from all early to partial late. I pick the one that suits the beer the best. Other than myself and brother, we are the only two that like hoppier brews, so having less hop utilization is actually more desirable for the other beer drinkers in the family. So, all early seems to be beneficial for me personally in more than 1 case with ease and flavor differences.

 

[EndlessPurple]

With all the talk about only certain weight containers of LME, it made me wonder. At the local homebrew shops here, they use large drums of extract and I can just order up however much I want to pour into a jug. Is this the same as all other LMEs being refered to or is it slightly different in someway or another?

 

[Getzinator]

With all the talk about only certain weight containers of LME, it made me wonder. At the local homebrew shops here, they use large drums of extract and I can just order up however much I want to pour into a jug. Is this the same as all other LMEs being refered to or is it slightly different in someway or another?

The best thing to do is ask your LHBS about what exactly their measurements are. I know some of the brewers here from the Great White North speak of buying their LME in 1 gallon increments. That was set up as 1 lb/gal. But there's no way to know for certain unless you ask.

 

[EndlessPurple]

I was more concerned with quality or content variations, but asking about what is exactly in the containers is a good point.

Here they have these big drums (well medium) and a spigot which they set your container on a scale, zero it out, and pour until the exact weight is in your container so amount is not really a question.

 

[djbradle]

I have nothing against them at all.

The main reason many people stick to light extract only is because they wish to mimic the all grain process, where you're using the extract as your base malt and adding character with steeping grains.

It also makes it easier to convert recipes to all grain if you ever decide to move on to that process.

There's certainly much validity to going the "light extract only" route. I've done so with many of my own recipes. However I remember in a thread a few years ago some of us were debating this very topic. And one poster named Bob, who at one time brewed professionally and whose opinion I've come to respect immensely, said something that changed the way I viewed darker extracts. He said once you know what's in them, you should view them as just another ingredient at your disposal. He explained it much better than I am, but it changed the way I thought about them. Since then I've incorporated them into some of my extract recipes.

Only thing with purely extract brewing is you can't steep base malts or rather shouldn't and most of these extracts contain a large portion of base malts such as Munich, pale, pilsner, 2 row, 6 row, etc.

Of course one must turn to partial mashing or even biab when using constraining equipment and space to get as close to ag as possible.

 

[progmac]

Well BeerSmith certainly calculates that late extract additions change hop utilization. In fact, because I only have .4 ounces of a certain hop, I just adjusted a recipe with some late extract addition so that I could achieve the same IBUs with this instead of the 0.5 that the recipe initially called for.

 

[progmac]

With all the talk about only certain weight containers of LME, it made me wonder. At the local homebrew shops here, they use large drums of extract and I can just order up however much I want to pour into a jug. Is this the same as all other LMEs being refered to or is it slightly different in someway or another?

This is how mine does it. They have these containers with hash marks drawn on the outside. It is not an exact process. I usually remeasure the extract, which is, of course, a PITA because of the texture

 

[CrookedTail]

Only thing with purely extract brewing is you can't steep base malts or rather shouldn't and most of these extracts contain a large portion of base malts such as Munich, pale, pilsner, 2 row, 6 row, etc.

Of course one must turn to partial mashing or even biab when using constraining equipment and space to get as close to ag as possible.

You should always incorporate steeping grains in your extract beers. I wasn't suggesting that you should completely eliminate steeping grains for colored extracts. What I was trying to say was you can use colored extracts to simplify your recipes. You can get the same or similar results with these extracts. It can make some beers easier to brew, less messy, and less wasteful (if you don't find another use for your spent grains).

For example, I have an American Brown ale recipe that I've done both as a full mash, and as an extract with grains recipe. Both come out nearly identical. The full mash version uses a pound of Munich and a pound of caramel malt, along with the roasted malts. Instead of doing a mini-mash and light extract, I used amber extract that was made with Munich and Caramel 60L as my base. I then steeped a much smaller amount of caramel malt with the same amount of roasted malts that are in the full mash version.

In the end the flavor profile was the same with a much simpler recipe that cut my brew day in half.

 

[djbradle]

Oh of course I always do steeping grains. A Belgian ale without it is subpar. (my favorite styles). Going to go the biab route soon for I am a kitchen brewer.

 

[logan3825]

DME is used because LME is a PITA to weigh and doesn't store as well once opened. LME is generally used as a base because it is less expensive than DME unless you buy in bulk. So in general a recipe will call for 6LB of LME then DME will be used to get up to the desired gravity.

I find the lighter LME to generally be more fermentable.