The dreaded medicinal flavor... que quest goes on & on

[TechFanMD]

Still, don't you think an infection would take longer to appear ?
I mean, i had beers that started fermentation within 4h of pitching and already 5 days later they were on FG and showing medicinal flavors....

I'll admit that it is strange for sure.....

 

[IslandLizard]

If your brewing water contains the amount of Iodine you can smell after fermenting a few days you would have already smelled it when filling the kettle.
Since it's municipal water, the chance of your water containing Iodine in more than mere trace amounts is nihil. Same with other impurities.
I just brought it up in case of the off chance.

Not sure if touched on this already, do you get any medicinal smells or tastes in your yeast starters? I always smell and taste the starter beer on top of the yeast after cold crashing as an early indication of a potential problem. I've caught a lingering infection a few times that way. But I do reuse yeast and make overbuild starters from previously overbuild starters, over and over again.

Did you save the yeast cake from your Dubbel that turned out so well?

If you can buy Starsan concentrate in larger containers (say 16 or 32 oz) it may run quite a bit cheaper per ounce. The concentrate does not go bad; I had a 32 oz bottle that took 7 years to finish up. And I brew quite a bit.

I do keep Starsan working solutions as clean as possible, they get lidded after use, and everything is thoroughly rinsed with water before it gets dunked or soaked in the (3.5 gallon) "half" bucket. A working solution lasts several months until it gets too grimey and grayish looking to my (already low) standards. I do check for the pH to be below 3.0 (a 1/4" snip of multi-range litmus paper works fine), but very, very rarely need to add extra concentrate or additional Phosphoric Acid to adjust it.

I also keep a 6 gallon bucket of it for 100% liquid pre-purging (5 gallon corny) kegs, in an effort to reduce O2 exposure during transfer from fermentors to kegs. I probably use much more C02 than Starsan

Using Iodine sanitizers may be a cheaper alternative in your area. I do use them too from time to time, but mainly to kill off the other half of the bug spectrum Starsan didn't catch.

 

[safcraft]

Not sure if touched on this already, do you get any medicinal smells or tastes in your yeast starters? I always smell and taste the starter beer on top of the yeast after cold crashing as an early indication of a potential problem. I've caught a lingering infection a few times that way. But I do reuse yeast and make overbuild starters from previously overbuild starters, over and over again.

Yeast starters smell and taste bland (as they should) and without medicine.

Did you save the yeast cake from your Dubbel that turned out so well?

Nope. I figured that if it is Stress related, i do not wish to re-use the 3787. But i have done that in the past without issues with the 3787 and 1762.

 

[safcraft]

Final note on this batch : it was dumped yesterday.
Medicine flavor does not dissipate (8 weeks in primary) despite all other flavors were quite nice.
For a Saison it was very pleasant and if it wasnt for the medicine, it would be a fantastic beer. too bad.

I will try this recipe again, with better care on the water and cleaning solutions.

For the record : would you say that if a starter does not taste medicine, it will never be the cause of medicine in the final beer ? Or even them the yeast can stress when dumped in final wort?

 

[dmtaylor]

For the record : would you say that if a starter does not taste medicine, it will never be the cause of medicine in the final beer ? Or even them the yeast can stress when dumped in final wort?

There is no correlation between taste of the starter and the final beer. The infection or off-flavors can easily occur in the main fermenter that were not present in the starter.

I don't think this is yeast stress.

To be safe I still think you need to replace all hoses, rubber, and plastic materials. It's likely you have a permanent infection, given that you have only been using OXI to "sanitize", which is not actually a sanitizer.

 

[@RoyalGallon]

Just as an aside to the more likely and thorough advice you've been getting in this thread I've noticed that the medicinal off flavour I have got in the past was attributable to pitching at too high a temp.

This is the off flavour I most associate with homebrew and something I used to get most of the time before I got a copper coil to cool my wort. However even the first time I used this (And didn't account for hot spots affecting the average temp of the wort - I took the temp from a cold spot near the cooling coil) I did get the same taint. Phenols, TCP or germoline type flavour.

I now stir and cool the wort and check again in FV before pitching and haven't had an issue since.

 

[safcraft]

There is no correlation between taste of the starter and the final beer. The infection or off-flavors can easily occur in the main fermenter that were not present in the starter.

I don't think this is yeast stress.

To be safe I still think you need to replace all hoses, rubber, and plastic materials. It's likely you have a permanent infection, given that you have only been using OXI to "sanitize", which is not actually a sanitizer.

You say OXI is not a sanitizer, but ChemiPro OXI product is sold as a "no rinse cleaner". But anyway, i DO use StarSan after that.

I appreciate your thoughts, but i dont believe its infection related.
This problem happens on every other brew i make, using same cleaning methods.
An infection does not strike me to be so fast acting. The wort is completly medicine free on pitch day, and only 4-5 days later it has a strong medicine flavor that persists at SAME STRENGHT for months.

It looks to me like a fermentation byproduct. Either yeast is stressing or reacting with something in the water mineral composition and producing this medicine like flavor.

 

[safcraft]

Just as an aside to the more likely and thorough advice you've been getting in this thread I've noticed that the medicinal off flavour I have got in the past was attributable to pitching at too high a temp.

This is the off flavour I most associate with homebrew and something I used to get most of the time before I got a copper coil to cool my wort. However even the first time I used this (And didn't account for hot spots affecting the average temp of the wort - I took the temp from a cold spot near the cooling coil) I did get the same taint. Phenols, TCP or germoline type flavour.

I now stir and cool the wort and check again in FV before pitching and haven't had an issue since.

Thank you. I do pitch low. I use the conical fermenter cooling system to take it down to pitch temp (18C-20C).

 

[dmtaylor]

I appreciate your thoughts, but i dont believe its infection related.

Don't be so sure. I had your same problem for a couple of years before I finally replaced all my hoses and plastics, and haven't had any trouble since then. I'd hate in a couple years to have to be the one to say "I told you so".

 

[safcraft]

Don't be so sure. I had your same problem for a couple of years before I finally replaced all my hoses and plastics, and haven't had any trouble since then. I'd hate in a couple years to have to be the one to say "I told you so".

In fact, the only plastic i use on the cold side (after boiling) is the grainfather counterchiller that i cannot replace, only sterilize. I do my boiling on the Grainfather, use the counterchiller with 100ºC wort to sterilize and then begin cooling and sending directly to the conical fermenter (stainless).
Nothing else is used after boiling wort, so then i pitch and close my fermenter.

Only soft rubbers other than the counterchiller are the litlle O-rings on the fermenter valves and top rubber bung for airlock. The O-rings on the valves may be harder to replace....

 

[dmtaylor]

If you don't want to replace your o-rings right away for some reason, as an experiment you could try fermenting in different equipment for a few batches to see if you get the same medicinal results or if the problem magically goes away.

 

[Jako]

I had a problem like this many years ago. The problem went away when I replaced my hoses and rubber materials. You might just have yourself an infection that's gone permanent, hiding out in your soft materials. Take everything apart, change every O ring, etc.

Good luck.

i had an issue like this. i lost 4 batches back to back. i replaced all my plastic equipment and used star-san and iodine. i haven't had an issue since. i also had issues with bottles at one point so that could be the issue as well.

 

[safcraft]

I have been trying to find a dealer to replace all Grainfather Conical Dual VAlve Tap rubbers and seals.
It has not been easy, as dealer often do not carry this, and Grainfather themselves do not sell them directly (dont know why but they said i had to buy from a local dealer).

So meanwhile, i can't stop and be quiet, so i decided to fill a bucket with starsan, and deep dive all rubbers, seals, and hard parts of the dual valve tap for 2 days.
After that i was extra carefull with filling the fermenter with starsan to the top, and closed it.

I made a Weizenbock yesterday (smoked recipe) and dumped the yeast starter (made 4 days ago, smelling wonderfull , no medicine on it). I used WY3068, known for giving me trouble with medicine in the past .

Lets now hope for the best and try the beer in 1 week time.

 

[safcraft]

Update on this just for future reference.

Start OG : 1.058
Current gravity at 4 days fermentation : 1.020

No signs of medicine yet.
Good steady flow of bubbles on airlock.

 

[safcraft]

Update on this brew:

FG at 1.016 , fermented 21 days.
No medicine on this one, tasting nice.

On primary again : Helles Bock fermenting at 12ºC.
Will check on flavor in a few days time.

 

[BandonBrewingCo]

Hope it's ok to jump in on this with a question of my own... I brewed the (m)Oktoberfest with a harvested kölsch slurry from a quality tasting beer. Now, my (m)Otoberfest is exhibiting a bit of an off taste like medicinal but is fading over time in the bottle. The last bottle is was very much only in the background and I was looking for it. I had temp controlled the fermentation too. I'm not prone to infections and the harvested jar (sitting on beer) in the fridge smells fine.

Would this yeast be ok to use again if I use a vitality starter?

 

[safcraft]

Hope it's ok to jump in on this with a question of my own... I brewed the (m)Oktoberfest with a harvested kölsch slurry from a quality tasting beer. Now, my (m)Otoberfest is exhibiting a bit of an off taste like medicinal but is fading over time in the bottle. The last bottle is was very much only in the background and I was looking for it. I had temp controlled the fermentation too. I'm not prone to infections and the harvested jar (sitting on beer) in the fridge smells fine.

Would this yeast be ok to use again if I use a vitality starter?

From my point of view, you do not have and infection because medicinal would never fade. You probably got off flavor byproducts from yeast during fermentation and now te yeast is cleaning them.
I would re-use and give them a proper low gravity starter.

 

[safcraft]

Update on Helles Bock :

Fermenting for 2 weeks and finished diacetyl rest. FG at 1.010
No signs of medicine, tastes great. Will begin lagering now !

Another batch on primary now : Session IPA fermenting for 2 days with US-05

 

[Soulshine2]

I have dealt with medicinal flavor beers quite often. Too often than i would like.
Still, i have narrowed it down to some culprit, but still find it hard to avoid.

Some Yeasts are more prone to stress than others. This is a known fact that i learned for myseld too. I have had stressed yeast off flavors from WY3068 and WY3787. Until now, none of my DRY yeasts have showed medicinal flavors due to stress.

I have used : 34/70, US-05 , Nottingham , Belle Saison and S04
Last year i made 2 Dark Saisons (i know, not true to style) with the Belle Saison yeast.
They came out close to 9% ABV due to extremely attenuative yeast ( did not know it well yet) and very highly pronounced fusel alcohols that blamed to temperatures (fermentation was 26ºC ambient ...probably rised above 30ºC in vessel).

This time, decided to brew a "classic Saison" , light Pale in color and lots of Amarillo. Kind of like a Boulevard Tank 7 (followed a recipe for that).
Everything in mash went well, and i cooled down 21L of beautifull clear wort to my fermenter.

Error nº1 : I forgot to aerate the wort.
Error nº2 : Used 1 packet of Belle Saison (1 year old in the fridge) properly hydrated

Maybe because it was not aerated. Maybe because it was old yeast and not enough yeast for a 1.065 wort. Still it lift off fermentation in 12h....and fermented vigorously for 2 weeks, dropping down to 1.006. Temp was controled at 20ºC steady during fermentation.

Problem : medicinal taste. terrible again.
I know this off taste, it is stressed yeast. It is NOT due to chlorines, i have treated water.

I just cant seem to understand, because lots of folks seem to use this yeast underpitched. They also seem to go higher temps, i thought i would keep it low, to prevent off flavors. Guess not.

Anyone else got medicine from Belle Saison ?
I guess i will try this again, but need to know what to change ...
Cheers

when you say medicinal taste , are you tasting the Band-Aid taste?
In my reading on that specific issue , it was said to suspect a wild yeast had gotten into the brew somehow...
My American Honey Brown Ale has that slight band aidy taste and thats the only brew I used a liquid yeast smack pack ,that didnt ferment in 36 hours and I repitched a started dry packet .It fermented like crazy but the taste is off.

 

[BandonBrewingCo]

From my point of view, you do not have and infection because medicinal would never fade. You probably got off flavor byproducts from yeast during fermentation and now te yeast is cleaning them.
I would re-use and give them a proper low gravity starter.

That could be it. I've just been separating my trub from my wort (usually about 1.050-1.060) and using that as a vitality starter. So this time I watered it down to get to 1.040 and the starter looked and smelled much better!



But then I went ahead and pitched it into cold wort and forgot to take it off the cold balcony for a day... le sigh

 

[safcraft]

Update on Helles Bock :
Lagering but still waiting for new fermenter to transfer to secondary and gelatin.


Update on Session IPA:
Fermented for 10 days with US-05, FG at 1.009.
Tastes very very green, but no signs of medicine whatsoever.

So very pleased, 3 batches with no medicine in it.
I have to package these (bottle) before i move on to another IPA challenge.
Quite pleased for now...

 

[BandonBrewingCo]

From my point of view, you do not have and infection because medicinal would never fade. You probably got off flavor byproducts from yeast during fermentation and now te yeast is cleaning them.
I would re-use and give them a proper low gravity starter.

A bit of lagering seems to have cleared everything up, looks like you were right

 

[ninjaltd]

Just to add to this old thread. I was having some similar problems with medicial flavours. Gave everything a good pressure wash, PBW clean and started sanitising with iodophor instead of starsan and this (so far) has resolved it for me. I suspect this is some type of brett strain that is very resistant to sanitisation.